So a tank's #1 priority is to build hate...
And Paladin's do it through healing....
Right? With me so far?
Then can someone explain to me why that is the class that gets the most damage mitigation abilities?
Aren't they contrasting ideas?
Seems silly to me... So if the IDEA behind Paladin is fail.... If the theory behind the entire existence of the class is illogical... How can the class thrive?
I know what you're thinking... PLD was tank king in FFXI....
But why do you think that was?
It wasn't because of healing....
PLD's weren't spam self healing on HNMs
And it wasn't because of hate.... Sorry, but it wasn't....
It was for survivability....
Paladin is used when it is the only class that can tank the MOB and survive (Or has, by far, the best chance at survival)
People seem to be clinging to an idea of PLD that was broken... even in FFXI
Fight starts... PLD goes into damage mitigation mode (through shield abilities or shadows) and flashes repeatedly for 2-3 minutes.... (idiotic)
Then DD's get some TP and trick attack WS (You know it as Collusion, and only the warrior benefits from it)
Paladin only shines in that rare situation where any other class would die while tanking.
The new buffs to PLD are nice... but don't address the issue...
Before these changes... PLD can't tank most things and WAR can...
After these changes, PLD can now tank these enemies it couldn't before (Which is nice for people who love PLD and will play it regardless) but WAR will always be better
I don't know why people think being able to block more (While admittedly nice) will make PLD better at generating enmity (which is the definition of tanking)
How can PLD ever expect to be viable when the premise behind it is so flawed?
There are actually quite a few different things that could be done to make PLD viable...
(But to do so, you have to get away from the "Heal for hate" paradigm... it wont work
You can't do all of these suggestions either or else PLD becomes OP....
But here are a few suggestions...
1. Make Blocks generate enmity (With the Block rate increase, this would be awesome)
2. Make Sentinel WAYYYYYYY better. (Let's be real, it sucks now)
3. Give PLd Collusion. (It's awesome)
4. Give DD's trick attack (You knew i was going to say that)
5. Make Rampart a way bigger AOE
sidenote: Rampart is such a tease. You think you're going to grab all of this enmity, but each person you use it on has to be on the enemies enmity table and standing next to you... weak
6. Lower War Drums cooldown
7. Buff Phalanx with more damage or supercharge the enmity gained from it
8. Lower the Spirit's within cooldown even more
9. Make Blocks generate really good enmity (Sorry, I had to list it twice)
There are obviously more ways to make it work, these are just my thoughts
And like I said... you can't do all of these things or else PLD becomes super OP... and we don't want that ;)
Lastly... think about this
with MRD>WAR, most tanking abilities come from the job (WAR)
with GLA>PLD, most tanking abilities come from the class (GLA)
Since Job abilities are exclusive and most class abilities are not, that means WAR has access to it's tanking abilities as well as those from GLA... While PLD only has the GLA tanking abilities, since MRD hardly has any
Reach OUT
PLD... The curious contradiction....
Printable View
-
04-26-2012, 03:22 PMRydinPLD... The curious contradiction....
-
04-26-2012, 03:26 PMMasamune1004Mind = Blown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
-
04-26-2012, 03:34 PMRydinI know you're joking... but it's true...Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune1004
WAR, as a job, focuses on enmity generation while PLD, as a job, focuses on damage mitigation...
Job skills are exclusive... so WAR doesn't get damage mitigation and PLD doesn't get enmity....
Who is losing more? -
04-26-2012, 03:34 PMRicky
Blocking more means more War Drum and Phalanx spam (required block to use them) and Spirits Within combos with Phalanx, all three of these abilities have enmity boost
Anyway, I don't think PLD threat was ever a problem, the real problem is speed runs and the fact that a Warrior tank makes them... speedier!
Oh and PLD can use some more HP too but that is secondary to the failure of the current dungeon design. Actually, speed runs are OK, but Yoshi-P has stated before that any class can do any content and that's just not true right now.
Well, Dr. Mog had a video of a speed run of some dungeon with one of every class, but we all know how MMO players are, not willing to face adversity when there is an easier path to the loot -
04-26-2012, 03:36 PMRickyDefinitely right on this point, the loss of Second Wind alone is so noticeable on Paladin vs Warrior. The skills you can get from CNJ are just not good enough compared to the skills Warrior has access to, although I haven't really tried keeping Stoneskin on my self as much as possible, I haven't played PLD much period, leveled White Mage instead :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
-
04-26-2012, 03:37 PMAionagain, its not the problem that PLD cant tank/generate enmity, but WAR does it better..and Yoshi-P admit itQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
-
04-26-2012, 03:39 PMRydinGood point... but spirits within is really not limited by lack of blocking, as it stands... It's really only limited by it's own cooldownQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
Also.... being that enmity can be a major bottleneck for DD's... If PLD could generate even 25% more enmity than a WAR then fights would go faster than with WAR tanking, even if the PLD didn't deal any damage, because the DD's wouldn't have to hold back as much.
Here is a secret... High DPS is the key to speedy kills... and Tank Enmity is the key to high DPS -
04-26-2012, 03:40 PMRickyHaving played both I feel like the only time Warrior is better with enmity is on groups of mobs, but the biggest benefit there is that they help kill them so much faster as well. Probably a Paladin can manage just fine tanking groups, but Flash (no dmg) vs Steel Cyclone (over 9000 damage) is going to favor the Warrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aion
-
04-26-2012, 03:44 PMRickyIt isn't even an issue of killing the boss fast is it? I thought the clear of the trash took a larger amount of time, in every MMO I've ever played speed runs came down to efficiency of clearing the trash and that's why Steel Cyclone makes Warrior the preferred class, but I may be wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
re: Spirits Within, isn't that 3000 TP without combo? I can't log in and check, but I'd rather do Flat Blade combos with excess TP and always combo Spirits Within rather than spending the whole 3000 on it, especially considering Phalanx is only 250 if I recall
But anyway, yeah, with Collusion and Antagonize and Vengeance and Flash (lol) and all the other tools the Warrior has I can see your point, they didn't really give Paladin comparable tools, while Blood Bath and Second Wind for Warrior are, I feel, truly comparable to Holy Succor -
04-26-2012, 03:47 PMMuruganYou can pop block with aegis boon though, and do both war drum/phalanx->Spirit's Within. I think that is what he meant, it isn't an issue of you "having to wait for block" right now. It is the cooldown on the abilities themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
-
04-26-2012, 03:54 PMRydinRight... I said the issue is the cooldown... not the TP involved...Quote:
Originally Posted by Murugan
You can pop block with aegis boon though, and do both war drum/phalanx->Spirit's Within. I think that is what he meant, it isn't an issue of you "having to wait for block" right now. It is the cooldown on the abilities themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
-
04-26-2012, 04:03 PMXStruckX
PLD can still tank...
Only reason why WAR does it better is because it does a CRAP TON more damage than PLD. Add Vengeance and Antagonize and WAR just incurs more enmity. Therefore WAR can hold hate while DD's can do MUCH more damage. Its simple really. When I first started doing Cutter's Cry with a PLD tank we were fine till last phase of Chimera. PLD couldn't hold the damage output that the BLM's were doing much less the heals needed to keep the PLD alive. We switched to WAR and BOOM we got our first kill. I wonder why that is... WAR has more enmity generation due to Steel Cyclone being on a low recast, Rampage healing them and not to mention Antagonize and Vengeance. Just popping Vengeance alone at the start insures you start off strong as hell. With enough enmity to keep the mob on you through the first barrage of cures and nukes.
Now let's fast forward...assuming you know how to play PLD (because I assure you most people dont, including myself) and now you have some enmity gear (by enmity I mean more than just a +10 off your belt) you can now produce a lot more enmity through your sub par enmity generating abilities and possibly be able to hold off the blms and mnks. Since you have more damage mitigation than a WAR you are now tanking better than a WAR could ever dream of. Dump your HP gear PLD's and stack the enmity you might see a difference. This is all speculation and my own personal view of the PLD vs WAR debate. I could be wrong. -
04-26-2012, 04:45 PMwaldo
Speculation heh. Warrior is gonna be nerfed soon, it's all but confirmed by Yoshi-P himself, but just a helpful hint regarding the low enmity. Maddening potions are cheap, pop one at the start of any major fight, Sentinel, Flash, Wardrum, Rampart will all have +100 enmity from go. It's a nice head start.
Work with what you got. -
04-26-2012, 05:28 PMSasagawaI noticed this the other day, while testing out things on PLD before patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky
I said to myself why use holy succor to heal ?
then I realised if I equip my blessed ring and black pearl chocker i can get normal cures for 500-600 hp on demand provided my mp lasts
Holy succor around 250mp
Cure 112
All i can say is I have now changed to rotating between stone skin and cure while tanking and added with the hopefully improved damage mitigation I reckon as a tank I can keep myself alive alot easier generate more hate and hold the attention of mobs better.....
Now how to sort that animation lock ! -
04-26-2012, 05:52 PMSasagawaI have been a PLD/GLA in this game from day one and changed my tactics so many times, I have lost countQuote:
Originally Posted by XStruckX
Hate generation isnt a problem in melee heavy parties because of Rampart and sentinel believe me when you sentinel rampart a group of monks your emnity can go from green through to flahing red (tested right after a death)
Additionally when u add in flash and provoke and then cycle in fast blade flat blade, phalanx spirits within etc you end up sky rocketing in hate gen
as pld I find the main problem is itchy trigger finger, and blms wanting to cast as soon as the mobs name turns red !
easiest solution to this is to proc divine viel outmaneuver before u engage and use the tp generated to perform a combo like this
provoke > Flash > war drum > phalanx > bloodbath> spirits within few seconds later fastblade> flat blad followed by fast blade>savageblade> and the spin move I always forget the name of
Not to mention put rampart and sentinel in there at some point
Hate generation was never a problem if you let plds have 3 seconds.
However, it can easily go wrong due to hate bleeding but as long as there is a group to rampart and also cast protect on it will be fine.
basically PLDs are great for melee parties unfortunately noone really does them at the minute. -
04-26-2012, 05:55 PMSasagawaI second that waldo its expensive but a PLDs gotta do what a PLDs gotta do :PQuote:
Originally Posted by waldo
-
04-27-2012, 12:41 AMRydin
It's a very touchy issue....
Warriors generate enmity by dealing damage
By increasing the damage of PLD, isn't SE saying "ok, the idea of PLD doesn't work, so let's make PLD more like warrior to shut people up"
Honestly? Isn't that the general impression?
While more HP and shield blocking are nice (And needed, although I would have taken 1 or the other) they don't really address the major concern
The major counterargument is PLD can generate just as much enmity as WAR
Well that, in and of itself, is wrong.
Even if they generated similar enmity (Which they very much don't), then this happens:
Tank A generates 5,000 enmity
Tank B also generates 5,000 enmity... but as an added bonus, has taken 3k HP off of the MOB by way of damage
No matter how much HP or blocking PLD has... in that system... Unless PLD can do as much damage as a WAR, or unless there is a situation where WAR can't survive and PLD can... then WAR will ALWAYS be the best choice
But the answer CANNOT be make the PLD do more damage.... If you do that, then either one is stronger and the other is gimp.... or they buff/nerf until they both do about the same damage and then they are essentially the same class
If WAR does more damage... PLD needs to be able to generate more Enmity
Some people think using a PLD means you can get rid of a WHM in favor of an extra DD.... but in truth... WAR heals just as efficiently as PLD.... SO any situation where you could use a PLD and get rid of a WHM, then you could have done the same with WAR... Advantage lost
Here is an example of what needs to happen:
WAR does 3 times the damage of PLD
so... PLD can generate 1.5 times the enmity of WAR
I know you're thinking "That's not fair" (Especially you WAR fans)
But it IS fair....
This is a way to make both viable (Without crazy changes to the game)
Say you have a WAR tank... he is doing damage... he is building Enmity.... the DD's go red and pop enmity abilities... go red and slow down some... or they have minus (-) enmity materia on....
Switch to a PLD tank... and although he can't do as much damage as the WAR, he can generate more enmity... which means the DD's don't have to hold back as much, and their extra DPS can make up for the missing WAR DPS
And Voila!!! Balance is achieved
In fights where the DD's aren't bottlenecked by enmity (Say they spend a lot of time dodging AOE's so they can't always attack OR its a MOB with really REALLY high defense)... WAR becomes the most efficient tank
In fights where enmity slows the DD's to the point where they have to stop DPSing because they are red... PLD would be the tank of choice
So to reiterate... WAR does more damage, so PLD should generate more enmity....
I hear you though... WAR does more damage and has more enmity abilities so he will do more damage AND generate more enmity....
Well this is something you'll have to take up with Yoshi....
But changes (Increases) to PLD damage mitigation, in theory, lower PLDs ability to generate enmity under this current ideology
So quote me on this... PLD will not be a more useful tank unless he can generate significantly more enmity that WAR OR in a case where PLD can survive a fight that WAR cannot -
04-27-2012, 02:13 AMnorthernsky
If I remember well, enmity is only increasing through a fight (except the few abilities that lower it), so it's basically a race of who accumulates enmity the fastest.
If enmity was actually lost as damage is taken, that would give a fairly significant boost to PLD over WAR due to higher damage mitigation, because warrior would have to sustain higher damage output to compensate for enmity loss to damage taken.
Abilities, materia and gear that promote damage mitigation for PLD would therefore have an additional enmity+ value. That would not increase DPS, but increasing damage mitigation would be twice as useful for PLD, thus improving the two main aspects of a tank; survivability and ability to hold hate -
04-27-2012, 02:29 AMRydinCorrect... enmity does not decay....Quote:
Originally Posted by northernsky
-
04-27-2012, 02:51 AMDuelleThat's a band-aid over a bullet hole. PLD needs fixes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasagawa
-
04-27-2012, 02:56 AMRydinPLD needs "MOAR" enmityQuote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
-
04-27-2012, 02:57 AMlshumakerThis is by far the easiest way to balance defensive tanks with offensive tanks. The offensive tank (war) will be spike enmity (gain fast, loose fast), while the defensive tank (PLD) will be a slow gain but have more steady enmity levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by northernsky
However, even with this, PLD is best used when melees are used.