Hi there.
I wanted to talk about macros and how I personally think they could be very helpful in improving the general feel of the game.
Somehow I also ended up making a video about it, but here are my thoughts on the topic:
Personally I don't find pressing 1, 2, 3 for a basic combo to be very engaging.
I've seen and played other games, where you automatically progress through each stage of a combo with the same button
and each button is usually associated with a certain finisher, rather than each individual move or attack.
I generally prefer this approach to combos.
You can kinda get this to work with macros, but there are some drawbacks to it. Pretty big ones.
Macros can not be queued like normal skills and will inevitably result in more downtime.
When I tried to make this work I noticed it's not possible to set a macro to your hotbar with a macro, you can only swap between different presets.
I ended up using a lot of presets for this. Some classes would run out of presets before they could place each stage of a combo on their presets.
To solve these problems, you'd need something like "/qaction" which would allow the action to be queued like a normal skill.
It would be very important to limit this to one "/qaction" per macro, to avoid creating something very similar to a bot.
Giving the "set" subcommand of "/hotbar" and "/crosshotbar" the ability to place a macro to your hotbar would make this setup a lot easier to create
and also make it accessible to classes with a lot of different combos.
As far as I know this wouldn't introduce any new functionality, only remove the excessive need for multiple hotbar presets.
Freeing up those slots on the hotbar could also make way for new impactful skills.
Sorry for the wall of text. :p
Edit: Oh right, the video
I also made this to practice talking english.. please forgive me. ^^'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-TUu_vgijY
Using macros for combos
Printable View
-
06-07-2021, 08:10 AMMalitiasTTUsing macros for combos
-
06-07-2021, 08:19 AMKolsykol
Personally I like the combos a lot, it was always boring to me in WoW to essentially be spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 a lot and ( in earlier expansions at least ) just sit around waiting auto-attacking for CD's and resources.
My main issue is that they're not engaging in some cases.
For example MNK is engaging because of the positionals and refreshing buffs/ dots, SAM is engaging since there's a certain level of freestyling you can do.
NIN isn't very engaging imo since it's just 123 and then 124 to refresh the speed buff.
Edit: Also SAM has buffs tied to two of the combo actions too.
I suppose that my general point is that the combos should be doing something different imo rather than simply being a higher damaging ability. -
06-07-2021, 08:22 AMShurrikhanHad you not mentioned this, I would have thought you a long-time, or even native, speaker. Your voice is very understandable and very smooth here.Quote:
Originally Posted by MalitiasTT
On topic, like you, I don't feel that hitting 3-8 buttons to perform a single decision (single-target combo loop) over as many GCDs is any more engaging than hitting 1 for each GCD within that decision. While I'd prefer then, that the complexity faked by those separate buttons were real (and those separate actions were separately usable, rather than only within that linear and therefore single-decision sequence), it would at least be an improvement to be a bit more honest about that complexity and open up the hotbars for, as you said, new and impactful skills.
Allowing the first active line of each macro to be queued, moreover, would be a huge help for <t> or similar macros (especially since the ground-targeting skills they typically replace are, themselves, not queueable because of that ground-targeting). -
06-07-2021, 08:30 AMLiam_Harper
Combo's aside, allowing a single queueable action per macro (or making macros containing only one action able to queue) should have been a thing years ago. It opens the door to QoL like mouseover heals, Shirk to co-tank, Asylum/Salted Earth on target and so on without punishing you by making the ability clunkier to use. Also Sprint and Potions should queue too.
I can certainly understand being against automated play, but I see no reason to be against QoL. -
06-07-2021, 08:49 AMMalitiasTTThanks a lot! I rarely talk in english and I also don't give presentations very often, so I wanted to "level my speech skill". :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's just a theory, but maybe the combo system in its current state is the result of when the game was completely revamped and they didn't have as many skills.
So in order to make people hit different buttons they decided to make this combo system.
I like your take on the relation between making a decision and pressing the associated button. I guess that's largely why I feel like the combo system could use some improvement.
Using the impactful skills at the right time and managing them properly is what's most fun to me in an RPGs combat. -
06-07-2021, 09:09 AMShurrikhanWe've only really had two versions in XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by MalitiasTT
The pre-Yoshida version involved freeform combos that, sadly, lacked sufficient synergy at the time to really necessitate hitting different buttons except based on differing geometries (linear piercing AoE, diminishing linear AoE, ramping linear AoE, conal AoE, self-radial AoE, target-radial AoE, donut AoE, skillshot ST, regular ST, etc.), focus target requirements, or enemy resistances (to slashing, piercing, or blunt damage for physical attacks or the various elements, which also included Umbral, Astral, and Blood back then, iirc).
The post-Yoshida version had, essentially, only rigid AoEs and ST combos (essentially, a single action or decision that just gets upgraded upon with each further GCD you can attach to it), and the STs would be rotated in priority order (resource maintenance if needed > damage buff > DoT > direct, etc.).
So, before we had individual decisions per button-press, but they didn't quite have enough momentum or interaction between them, and later we had very few actual decisions compared to our number of buttons required on heavily combo-driven classes/jobs.
A more "honest" implementation of the second (i.e., current) version would just be, for instance, one button each to run the whole of a DRG's buff+DoT (Chaos Thrust+) combo or direct combo (Full Thrust+), but I'd have much preferred we go back to when the skills themselves felt more independent, with enough momentum or interaction between each to influence order, but in a way that's open enough to pick from multiple branching paths, including differing combo lengths. Just my two cents. -
06-07-2021, 09:39 AMCanadaneThey intentionally didn't do this because they want macros to be poorer in combat than pressing your buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
So it'll likely never happen. -
06-07-2021, 10:04 AMShurrikhanMaking the first active line of each macro queueable would not reduce the number of button presses...Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
-
06-07-2021, 08:41 PMMalitiasTTI think you misunderstood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
The idea is to combine more of the decision (like single target default 1,2,3 rotation) into a combo button.
You're still pressing your buttons at least once every GCD and, like Shurrikhan said, this doesn't reduce the number of times your press your buttons.
The changes to the macros I suggested also wouldn't make you able to bind your whole rotation (which would include all of your burst abilities) onto a single button,
because fights have varying downtimes, which can't be accounted for with a macro. -
06-07-2021, 08:54 PMHysterior
They could maybe expand on the way instance controls works when we play as other characters.
We could still have multiple path bu reduce the number of different slots needed to complete a specific combo. -
06-07-2021, 09:09 PMJeeqbitThis actually happens in FFXIV for PvP and quest instances to help people on consoles, who don't have time to setup a hotbar in these modes. It's not used otherwise because it does mean we are just pressing one button, and that makes you wonder why you don't just spam the same attack like healers do.Quote:
Originally Posted by MalitiasTT
The combos we do in this game take some getting used to and I think a lot of new and casual players struggle to do them without breaking the combo or refreshing things efficiently, but if you commit to getting good with it and adjusting your settings so it's easier, you get used to it.
Yes, so you would need to use the hotbars on other classes and make use of the hotbar copy command to cycle through slightly different setups. It would be some kind of masterpiece to do it and you already know you are one of the few to ever expend the effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by MalitiasTT
The cross-hotbar looks like an interesting way to make it simpler even on a keyboard, it's just hard to get used to as a keyboard player. -
06-07-2021, 09:19 PMLiam_HarperDid you read what I wrote?Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadane
I'm talking about macros involving only a single action or ability (one button press). Like <mo>, <t>, <2>, ect. Pure QoL that requires you still do your full rotation. It baffles me that anyone could think the option of mouseover heals would be bad for the game, or that Sprint and Pots need to be clunky. -
06-07-2021, 09:28 PMRaikaiUgh, so much this... As a healer would be extra useful to have your dps skills macroed to a <tt> so you would be able to keep party members targeted to be able to dps w/o compromising your dps, instead of going back and forth with the boss and party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
-
06-07-2021, 09:52 PMMalitiasTTThere are a lot more skills than the 1,2,3 combos and those aren't affected by combining the 1,2,3 steps into one button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Oh, I might have worded that unclear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
I find the combo system so easy and simple to do that it's not engaging for me personally, while still requiring a lot of buttons.
The relation between complexity and number of buttons is what I'm questioning and what I was trying to "fix" for me.
You can do the same thing with mouse and keyboard and you even have 2 more presets this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
"/hotbar" and "/crosshotbar" have the same commands and functionalities, as far as I know.
(I don't reccommend doing this in its current state btw)