playing Dungeons on high Difficulty

Greetings everyone,
Since Dungeons are currently as easy as they can get (including Job balance), i'd like to spread more awareness on something i've been enjoying the past few days, and that is running Dungeons with the following rules:

-minimum Itemlevel
-no echo
-no Job Crystal
-no Healer
-2 tanks/2 dps or 3 tanks/1 dps setup.
-Food and any kind of Potion is allowed

Before anyone starts booing and pointing fingers, it is actually doable to clear some Dungeons that way, so far i tested it out on:

Aurum Vale: 3*
Wanderers Palace: 4*
Temple of Qarn Hard Mode: 5*

Note: A Rating of 1* means it can be easily cleared with tank dying occasionally if he starts getting sleepy.
2* means tank(s) will definitely die at some point.
Dungeons with a rating of 3* and higher require some effort and most likely lead to a few wipes.
4* and 5* force you to strategize and might end up with your party getting a timeout by attempting.

The List is currently short, but i will update it from time to time. Certain Dungeons cannot be cleared with the setup mentioned before and definitely require a CNJ (only because of hard hitting raidwide skills).

The idea behind this, is to encourage People to tackle Dungeons in a more difficult way than usual, not for the sake of any rewards, but just because it is a fun challenge.

I'll skip on the lack of Job Crystal and healer.

It being "actually doable" is a moot point, moreover; what matters is whether it's more fun when less overpowered.

(For the most part, I'd argue dungeons are more fun when they're not mind-numbingly easy, but I'd much prefer to see changes towards that be more pervasive than just obscure self-made challenge modes...)

I think you should consider not using food. Content is tuned with the assumption you are not using food, so just using it can cause you to survive a tank buster without mitigation in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think you should consider not using food. Content is tuned with the assumption you are not using food, so just using it can cause you to survive a tank buster without mitigation in my experience.

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Food and Potions are allowed in this set of Rules, because their usage (and the arcanist class) compensate a little for the missing Healer, and even then it hardly makes any difference.

I think having this incorporated through a separate roulette that has some restrictions on the level of play (e.g. a lower Item Level cap) would be a nice way of helping to encourage people to get better whilst also simultaneously awarding people for the efforts in a fairly.. Casual environment. It'd be a nice step between... Dungeons > Ex > Savage I think

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Originally Posted by Anhra

running Dungeons with the following rules:
-no Job Crystal

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While I'm also a fan of having the odd no-crystal run for teh lulz, there is another idea I've become much more fond of over time.
Instead of limiting your actions to just what you get without your job crystal, I find it pretty interesting to limit everyone to 12 actions each.
-- It can be fun trying to think about what kind of kit you can put together in that small of a space
-- there's a little customizability for each run
-- and because you have access to actions learned after level 30 you're more capable of tackling dungeons beyond ARR.

If you give it a shot lemme know what you and your friends think ; )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Greetings everyone,
Since Dungeons are currently as easy as they can get (including Job balance), i'd like to spread more awareness on something i've been enjoying the past few days, and that is running Dungeons with the following rules:

-minimum Itemlevel
-no echo
-no Job Crystal
-no Healer
-2 tanks/2 dps or 3 tanks/1 dps setup.
-Food and any kind of Potion is allowed

Before anyone starts booing and pointing fingers, it is actually doable to clear some Dungeons that way, so far i tested it out on:

Aurum Vale: 3*
Wanderers Palace: 4*
Temple of Qarn Hard Mode: 5*

Note: A Rating of 1* means it can be easily cleared with tank dying occasionally if he starts getting sleepy.
2* means tank(s) will definitely die at some point.
Dungeons with a rating of 3* and higher require some effort and most likely lead to a few wipes.
4* and 5* force you to strategize and might end up with your party getting a timeout by attempting.

The List is currently short, but i will update it from time to time. Certain Dungeons cannot be cleared with the setup mentioned before and definitely require a CNJ (only because of hard hitting raidwide skills).

The idea behind this, is to encourage People to tackle Dungeons in a more difficult way than usual, not for the sake of any rewards, but just because it is a fun challenge.

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I think an official system akin to mythic plus, but with its own twist, where dungeons simply get higher numbers the harder the mode you do them in would do wonders for the game and would likely not be incredibly hard to implement either.
I'm all for adding more challenging 4 player content

Asking for "hard" content that excludes healers will never ever happen. The fact that you don't even need a healer to clear the dungeon speaks for itself that the dungeon is far too easy.

This sounds super boring to me. If I was really looking for a challenge, rather than nerf myself, and make the game actually unfun (no reward other than the 'experience'), I'd just play something else.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

The idea behind this, is to encourage People to tackle Dungeons in a more difficult way than usual, not for the sake of any rewards, but just because it is a fun challenge.

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So nobody will even attempt this: POTD 200 floor had the same concept in mind and I don't remember that many people really bothered to try it (the rewards was what they were after most of the time). And if they did, it was mostly because they wanted to see its end or perhaps bored.
Rewards are a good incentives to try this stuff out, but without any it's not enough. "Fun" is also subjective.
I'm always into hard challenges when possible, but even those hard challenges usually give something back to you (like how DS2 rewards you for completing the game without dying or using bonfires to teleporting).

No offense, this just sounds boring and not really that fun either. You do you I suppose....

It is understandable that casual gamers aren't that interested in this sort of thing. This Thread and Idea exists solely for those that wish to push their limits by limiting themselves as far down as it is possible. And the feeling of acomplishment of clearing the impossible, is something that no itemdrop or title can even remotely catch up to.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

It is understandable that casual gamers aren't that interested in this sort of thing. This Thread and Idea exists solely for those that wish to push their limits by limiting themselves as far down as it is possible. And the feeling of acomplishment of clearing the impossible, is something that no itemdrop or title can even remotely catch up to.

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"Casual gamers". No this is plain boring I'd say, I think most would rather not subject themselves to garbage gameplay - which these old dungeons are comprised of - with all their skills missing, no healer.. Standing in place with a grand total of like 4 skills, is NOT gameplay that wows me, and I'd say most others. I'd rather have proper challenge, where I can utilize my full toolkit and work towards an actual reward. It's not "clearing the impossible" it's called wasting time, but that's just my thoughts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anhra

It is understandable that casual gamers aren't that interested in this sort of thing. This Thread and Idea exists solely for those that wish to push their limits by limiting themselves as far down as it is possible. And the feeling of acomplishment of clearing the impossible, is something that no itemdrop or title can even remotely catch up to.

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I don't think there are that many hard core players that would fall into this either.

This sounds like more what a group of friends would do for the occasional "just for fun" run and not one of their serious "to challenge themselves" runs.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

This sounds like more what a group of friends would do for the occasional "just for fun" run and not one of their serious "to challenge themselves" runs.

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That's why i share this Info. So that People know which Dungeons they can do if they plan on playing by the rules i mentioned with the OP.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

That's why i share this Info. So that People know which Dungeons they can do if they plan on playing by the rules i mentioned with the OP.

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But part of the fun of the limits is the not knowing if it's possible. By telling people that is, there goes a good portion of the fun. But that's just my view on things like this.

Some of the fun is unknowingly picking one that's next to impossible if not impossible given the limitations imposed and watching as the group collectively fails.

Because again, players do this for the fun of it. Not for the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

Asking for "hard" content that excludes healers will never ever happen. The fact that you don't even need a healer to clear the dungeon speaks for itself that the dungeon is far too easy.

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While I'd largely agree with your latter point, no such request has been made. The OP just mentioned a way they've been getting a renewed kick out of dungeon-running among premades. At no point did they ask that be standardized or implemented as a core game feature. (ItMe has done likewise in sharing his preferred personal challenge mode, the 12-action limit.)

The only actual requests thus far have been mine and Zeylos's. I've (snidely, admittedly) asked that the baseline dungeons have a modicum of difficulty, and Zeylos has promoted an official means of reiterative and granular difficulty increases by which to challenge oneself in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

While I'm also a fan of having the odd no-crystal run for teh lulz, there is another idea I've become much more fond of over time.
Instead of limiting your actions to just what you get without your job crystal, I find it pretty interesting to limit everyone to 12 actions each.
-- It can be fun trying to think about what kind of kit you can put together in that small of a space
-- there's a little customizability for each run
-- and because you have access to actions learned after level 30 you're more capable of tackling dungeons beyond ARR.

If you give it a shot lemme know what you and your friends think ; )

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Sounds good on paper, but i think 12 Skills might be too many to make a large enough difference. That Idea would however, look great on a BLU only run, where you can limit yourself by /dice (3-12). I might give it a try later today.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Sounds good on paper, but i think 12 Skills might be too many to make a large enough difference. That Idea would however, look great on a BLU only run, where you can limit yourself by /dice (3-12). I might give it a try later today.

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What skills would you bring as a tank? A healer? DPS?

Samurai would 100% be limited completely, unable to do its full rotation. Same with DRG. WHM would be fine with only 5 (regen, cure 2, medica 2, esuna, holy) 12 is enough to make you think and work quicker on your toes.