Request: Seasonal Effects & Environemental Growth

Just out of curiosity, would it be too difficult from a technical standpoint to implement seasonal effects and environmental growth characteristics to give the world more of a live feel over time?

Seasonal Effects: Four seasons a year with a transitory period from one to the other. Obviously Winter snow melts, Spring showers and flowers, Summer growth and abundance, Autumns brings about changing colors and colder temperatures which lead back to winter...

How hard would it be to create 4 versions of Eorzea corresponding to these seasons with a transition from one to the other on a yearly cycle? which leads me to my next point...

Environmental growth: This cycle would repeat over a 10 or 100 year (in game) period, but the concept stays the same. Let's use a tree for example: Seedling Sprouts, grows into a shrub or small tree, attains maturity at which point it can be harvested, and finally falls over in the wind due to it's large stature and a weakening root system to finish as a fallen log which harbors the growth of various forms of flora that can then be harvested such has mushrooms etc.

You can see I have tied in Botanist into the above example, in this case a tree only becomes available to logging at it's mature state and eventually the same point becomes unavailable to main hand logging but available to offhand harvesting in the form of a rotting log. In this case each tree would have a 10 or 100 year cycle, and if each tree was implemented at a different period in the cycle you could create a living forest of sorts.

Any ideas? I am no game designer or programmer so I have no idea what the feasability or complexity involved would be but I am informed that other MMOs have seasonal effects to a degree or another.

Please, Discuss.

Edit: Like if you would like to see this implemented.

i'm for growth/destruction of gathering nodes.

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Originally Posted by Mushy

i'm for growth/destruction of gathering nodes.

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It would make gathering achievements more fun if it didn't always feel like we were logging in the same time and place. I can't stress enough the temporal factor. Also if the yields of the gathering points or even monster drops changed over the course of the seasons this would be over the top.

Hmmmm going to put this here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...dventure-Time!

Also this because it has to do with weather http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....Or-am-I-blind

This suggestion is cool, and something I would be all for if this was a game still in development (for the first time). But what you are hoping for is a massive time and money investment for - from the company's point of view - a minimal return. Each season would constitute another 40-60% time per zone (rough estimates, since to be honest, while I've done some 3D modeling, I'm pretty much just an amateur) to re-skin and mutate the various models. For four seasons, that would be nearly triple the amount of time it would take to make one zone.

Organic growth is a cool idea. Though to do it right, SE would have to abandon their age old modus opperendi, which is to individually model every part of their game. The easiest way to accomplish this would be to write an algorithm (probably based on SpeedTree) that would slowly randomly mutate the various organic environmental elements over time. SE doesn't seem to like giving up that kind of control though.

Unfortunately, it comes down to a return on investment. All of these ideas are possible, but are they worth the amount of time it would take to create them? Most developers seem to think not. Personally, I think if they spent the first year of the game working on extra terrain models for each zone per season, rather than working on the first expansion right off the bat, I don't think the backlash would be too bad and it would make the environments really interesting. The problem for us though, is that FFXIV has already been delayed years, they can't afford any more.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Hmmmm going to put this here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...dventure-Time!

Also this because it has to do with weather http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....Or-am-I-blind

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Thanks Rokien, I'll be sure to look into those threads.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

This suggestion is cool, and something I would be all for if this was a game still in development (for the first time). But what you are hoping for is a massive time and money investment for - from the company's point of view - a minimal return. Each season would constitute another 40-60% time per zone (rough estimates, since to be honest, while I've done some 3D modeling, I'm pretty much just an amateur) to re-skin and mutate the various models. For four seasons, that would be nearly triple the amount of time it would take to make one zone.

Organic growth is a cool idea. Though to do it right, SE would have to abandon their age old modus opperendi, which is to individually model every part of their game. The easiest way to accomplish this would be to write an algorithm (probably based on SpeedTree) that would slowly randomly mutate the various organic environmental elements over time. SE doesn't seem to like giving up that kind of control though.

Unfortunately, it comes down to a return on investment. All of these ideas are possible, but are they worth the amount of time it would take to create them? Most developers seem to think not. Personally, I think if they spent the first year of the game working on extra terrain models for each zone per season, rather than working on the first expansion right off the bat, I don't think the backlash would be too bad and it would make the environments really interesting. The problem for us though, is that FFXIV has already been delayed years, they can't afford any more.

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Well i figured having the first model to work with as one of the fourth season would cut some time from the process since they could (tin my mind) copy the script or models and add the appropriate seasonal effects to the regions concerned.

As for organic growth if they do indeed work on every detail of the game, such as the trees for example, i imagine it wouldn't be so hard to yet again copy the models but change the colors as necessary (for fall) or add snow onto them etc and use them in their appropriate season.

Of course the hundred million dollar question comes down to time and money. I don't know if they have either to effect such a drastic overhaul of the world considering they already are planning on redoing the maps for 2.0

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Just out of curiosity, would it be too difficult from a technical standpoint to implement seasonal effects and environmental growth characteristics to give the world more of a live feel over time?

Seasonal Effects: Four seasons a year with a transitory period from one to the other. Obviously Winter snow melts, Spring showers and flowers, Summer growth and abundance, Autumns brings about changing colors and colder temperatures which lead back to winter...

How hard would it be to create 4 versions of Eorzea corresponding to these seasons with a transition from one to the other on a yearly cycle? which leads me to my next point...

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The Saga of Ryzom did it perfectly with the seasonal changes. Snow, and the entire ground of flowers became a snowfield. A great example.

Great post Matsume.

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Originally Posted by Roj

Great post Matsume.

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Thanks Frank, you too by the way.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Hmmmm going to put this here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...dventure-Time!

Also this because it has to do with weather http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t....Or-am-I-blind

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I want dem thunderbolts n' lightnin' effects Rokie ;_;

any more insight? anyone...?

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Thanks Frank, you too by the way.

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I see what you did there....

I'd rather they change the node system entirely and make it much like your suggestion (and of course increase the amount of nodes available to avoid camping).

But in all seriousness......seasons would be great. They could make it a 3 month cycle (4 times a year) between each season. I'm sure they would have the base model of the trees without leaves for winter, and would change the texture of the leaves in autumn.

Not all areas need drastic weather changes. Depending on which part of the continent your on.

e.g In the main snow areas (like our future behemoths dominion), it will stay the same, but more cloud in winter.

Forest areas, trees change colour and lose leaves.

Desert area, more sandstorms and sunny weather in summer.

City's have snow as a given for winter.

Spring could have april showers, with trees starting to bloom.

That kind of thing.


Queue the music!......Drip.....drop.....drip.....drop......drip drip drop in the april showers....dee..deedeedeeeee

I like to log in and see the sun shining while I walk across a green field. Oh thats already done.

Yes please to both accounts.

I think that the main problem with this sort of idea from a player's viewpoint is that is makes time passing such a big thing when we really need to ignore it for the most part. Sure, as time passes the threat to Eorzea looms ever closer, but after 2.0 hits I don't think we'll be doing so much time based stuff. In a game where a day lasts about an hour, years pass very quickly and if attention is brought to this then I think we're going to start feeling disconnected with things like children still being children after 5 years have passed in real Earth time. Then there's the events that refer to the previous years in Earth time. Is the Eorzean year really over 20 times longer than our own? Perhaps our characters (and all of the citizens of Eorzea) are exceptionally long lived, but in fiction we tend to associate a drastically different mindset to those who live for millennia because time means something so different to them. If we really paid attention to time in FFXIV, I can't help but think it would open a whole can of worms that would instantly break all suspension of disbelief.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, nor am I saying that the lore writers couldn't make it work, but I am trying to present another point of view.

Well, there is a simple enough explanation for that. Hydaelyn may just have a long solar year. As long as it's still in the Goldy Locks belt, there's a pretty wide variety of conditions they could place on the seasons and day/night cycles.

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Originally Posted by Kasumuni

But in all seriousness......seasons would be great. They could make it a 3 month cycle (4 times a year) between each season. I'm sure they would have the base model of the trees without leaves for winter, and would change the texture of the leaves in autumn.

Not all areas need drastic weather changes. Depending on which part of the continent your on.

e.g In the main snow areas (like our future behemoths dominion), it will stay the same, but more cloud in winter.

Forest areas, trees change colour and lose leaves.

Desert area, more sandstorms and sunny weather in summer.

City's have snow as a given for winter.

Spring could have april showers, with trees starting to bloom.

That kind of thing.


Queue the music!......Drip.....drop.....drip.....drop......drip drip drop in the april showers....dee..deedeedeeeee

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Seasonal BGM: yes, please! great Idea!

bump. 123456789

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Originally Posted by Matsume

Just out of curiosity, would it be too difficult from a technical standpoint to implement seasonal effects and environmental growth characteristics to give the world more of a live feel over time?

Seasonal Effects: Four seasons a year with a transitory period from one to the other. Obviously Winter snow melts, Spring showers and flowers, Summer growth and abundance, Autumns brings about changing colors and colder temperatures which lead back to winter...

How hard would it be to create 4 versions of Eorzea corresponding to these seasons with a transition from one to the other on a yearly cycle? which leads me to my next point...

Environmental growth: This cycle would repeat over a 10 or 100 year (in game) period, but the concept stays the same. Let's use a tree for example: Seedling Sprouts, grows into a shrub or small tree, attains maturity at which point it can be harvested, and finally falls over in the wind due to it's large stature and a weakening root system to finish as a fallen log which harbors the growth of various forms of flora that can then be harvested such has mushrooms etc.

You can see I have tied in Botanist into the above example, in this case a tree only becomes available to logging at it's mature state and eventually the same point becomes unavailable to main hand logging but available to offhand harvesting in the form of a rotting log. In this case each tree would have a 10 or 100 year cycle, and if each tree was implemented at a different period in the cycle you could create a living forest of sorts.

Any ideas? I am no game designer or programmer so I have no idea what the feasability or complexity involved would be but I am informed that other MMOs have seasonal effects to a degree or another.

Please, Discuss.

Edit: Like if you would like to see this implemented.

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That would be awesome!

An easy way to do this too is to have certain game elements the devs change with every update. They can also re-use these elements for years to come too, so it's one time effort and only swapping after that. (Similar to what they are doing with Dalamund, every patch it changes.)

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Originally Posted by Mushy

i'm for growth/destruction of gathering nodes.

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That, my good sir, would be awesomeness in FFXIV!

i like this!

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Originally Posted by Nakiamiie

That would be awesome!

An easy way to do this too is to have certain game elements the devs change with every update. They can also re-use these elements for years to come too, so it's one time effort and only swapping after that. (Similar to what they are doing with Dalamund, every patch it changes.)

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Yes, my thought's exactly. Actually it would be closer to the moon phases than Dalamud in that it would be a cyclical event that repeats over cycles much longer than 30 in game days. For 1 season this would obviously change every 4 in game months, and repeat every in game year. As for the environmental growth characteristics this could change on a longer term cycle such as that of 5-10 or 20 in game years.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be tied to patches but I'm for anything that works. I assume that every tree or cluster of trees is hand mde and placed ontop of a 3D computer generated map. So my assumption is that the devs could take eah element, make four versions of them corresponding to the seasons and implement cyclical changes on them like that of the moon phases. It shouldn't take 4x as long since the first stage is already complete and the first stage would be the base upon which the rest would be built. Since they wouldn't have to recreate everything, just change the colors and add snow for example, this should theoretically take a lot less time than the constrution of the actual environments themselves.

As for the life and death of trees etc, this might take more time, or not. Again, i imagine they could make 4 stages in their growth cycle, not unlike the seasons. That would be, seedling/sapling, young tree, mature tree, fallen over rotting log. The seedling stage and young tree stage would not be harvestable in any shape or form, but the mature tree could be gathered for logs, and the fallen over rotting log would provide food for off hand harvestable mushrooms, herbs etc.

The one thing to consider would be that, combined, every tree would need 16 images corresponding to each growth cyle in each season. Understandably this would take quite a lot of work. But my original question is to field professionals out there that might give me a hint as the the feasability of my assumptions from the server stand point and the complexity involved in programming.

A rep respons would be ideal, but I've never gotten one from all of my honest posts. All the while I have seen some rediculously banal suggestions get reps attention which leads me to believe I am being ignored by bayohne and the like...

This was actually one of my questions that didn't get chosen for The Future of FFXIV (TM) interview. :)

From a technical standpoint, it doesn't take *that* long to make three extra sets (of textures/models) for a total of 4 seasons, it's just that the transition would be abrupt. Like, yesterday it's all cherry blossoms and today there's nothing left.

A smooth transition is out of the question, development cost etc.

Anyway I think even an abrupt theme change would be better than nothing.

Hell even FFXI has seasonal changes. They aren't that big (some places get snow that normally doesn't, like Batallia/Rolanberry Fields as well as Rolanberries change color with the seasons) but they did it there so they could easily do it here.