Very Upset at Obsolete Android's Aiming/Scouting

I've mained MCH almost as long as I've been playing FF14. Most glams for MCH are already kind of awful - there are so many Aiming sets/tops that clip the MCH aetherotransformer, or are made with DNC/BRD in mind with total disregard toward the aesthetic of MCH. So when I saw this, I was extremely excited. The exact kind of top I've wanted since Heavensward for MCH, absolutely perfect for a gunner:

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...ale-Elezen.png

I was so thrilled. That's the exact kind of top I've wanted for MCH since Heavensward; a tactical load-bearing armor carrier. Pouches on the chest, nothing to clip the aether lunchbox - which can't be hidden without hiding the gun as well, only to reappear when drawing your weapon - absolutely perfect for MCH. Unless your character has boobs.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...emale-Hyur.png

Why? For what purpose? Aiming finally gets a decent top for a gunner, unless your character is female. I cannot stress enough how badly and for how long I've wanted a tactical chest piece for MCH - Scouting already gets most of the gear that would match well with MCH, and the job lockout of glamours is already completely asinine and without purpose. I get that SE seems to hate MCH for whatever reason, but this made me disappointed enough to post on the forums for the first time in a long time. There's absolutely no reason for this save that SE didn't want to, or couldn't figure out how to - the latter of which being highly doubtful - cover up a chest.

Anemos only has the belt line and a machete the size of a lalefell for some reason. Filibuster clips awfully with the MCH brick that can't be turned off or hidden, and looks like a comical/cartoonish haphazard attempt at DIY gear. MCH finally gets a good looking armor top, and it's a completely different item from male to female. This is extremely disappointing, especially when we finally got a gun that isn't completely ridiculous in the form of the Cryptlurker pistol, which I love. It was more work on SE's part to make two completely different items with different textures than to make one to adapt to both models. Someone made an active decision that MCH ladies didn't need armor or ammo, and then committed resources to it. MCH already feels like it gets the red headed step child treatment, this just feels insulting.

The reason is the set is based off of this character I think.

https://i.imgur.com/V8rUOcB.png

It’s because they were cramming two characters into one piece. The male top is Jackass, and the female top is Anemone. Both characters are female, but I guess they probably tried to figure out which would be more appealing to which players and came to that conclusion. In good faith, I think it was less about making sure the goods are on display than “what kind of aesthetic would female characters enjoy more”. I’m sorry that it wasn’t the conclusion you wanted. It really sucks when the thing you desperately want is just out of your reach. :/

Yeah, admittedly some of the gender differences between male and female for this tier of gear is... weird. Puppet's Bunker gear was - for the most part - fairly unisex in how it appeared on male and female avatars, and while I know two of the designs for Tower were originally based on female characters (Anemone, Devola/Popola), seems odd that they couldn't just... keep the designs the same. Why put a tactical vest on the male set if Anemone's original set doesn't have it? Or otherwise, why not add it to Anemone's set? Why are Devola/Popola's tops showing skin on female characters but they slapped a shirt under the slit for males? Why does the Fending/Maiming top turn into a mini-dress on girls but guys get pants - or vice versa, why can't guys have the mini-dress version?

I don't know. Looking at it as both a Nier fan and as a player, the weird additions or readjustments to male gear from the original female version seems unnecessary to me.

Granted, we could also just make an argument here for MCHs to have the ability to hide only the dumb lunchbox, I guess.

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Originally Posted by BunniEclair

The male top is Jackass,

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Ohhh. That actually explains it better. Still kind of silly to have made that distinction though, rather than just... make the gear look the same on male and female avatars.

When I get home today from work I'm going to hop onto Automata and see if this is a thing from the game, if there are male androids in the resistance that have the version with the tactical vest thing etc, to see if maybe that's why. I don't remember what the generic npcs look like. I'm not sure if it comes from the game or not.

I really like both outfits but I'm with OP on this one. It's very disappointing when something you love is out of reach solely because of the gender of your character. Genderlocking only limits what we can do and I strongly feel it has no place in a modern game.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Granted, we could also just make an argument here for MCHs to have the ability to hide only the dumb lunchbox, I guess.

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I know it's silly but that lunchbox is hugely why I still haven't touched mch yet. I know it would irritate me so much to be stuck with such an obvious piece of gear that I cannot glam. It often doesn't even vaguely match the guns they're paired with.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I really like both outfits but I'm with OP on this one. It's very disappointing when something you love is out of reach solely because of the gender of your character. Genderlocking only limits what we can do and I strongly feel it has no place in a modern game.



I know it's silly but that lunchbox is hugely why I still haven't touched mch yet. I know it would irritate me so much to be stuck with such an obvious piece of gear that I cannot glam. It often doesn't even vaguely match the guns they're paired with.

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I get it. It's ugly IMO and it'd be nice if they had an option to hide it, kind of like paladins having an invisible shield option though maybe not as easy to implement since I don't think the box is affected by glamor is it?

It's not the reason I don't play mch but it is a bit of an eyesore, and for people more interested in just having a gun for a weapon than the full MCH flavor I can see it especially being annoying for.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I get it. It's ugly IMO and it'd be nice if they had an option to hide it, kind of like paladins having an invisible shield option though maybe not as easy to implement since I don't think the box is affected by glamor is it?

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Paladins can glamour the shield because it's a separate piece. The box is part of the gun item and could only be glamoured over if you have a specific gun that doesn't include the box - but you won't get that because lore-wise it's a separate item that we need to make the guns function in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Paladins can glamour the shield because it's a separate piece. The box is part of the gun item and could only be glamoured over if you have a specific gun that doesn't include the box - but you won't get that because lore-wise it's a separate item that we need to make the guns function in the first place.

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Yeah you're probably not going to get a separate glamour option. Though they 'could' potentially include a gun that doesn't show it. I mean lore wise paladins have shields and they still have that option.

But even then that would just limit people who don't want to box to show to that one item anyway so it wouldn't really be much of a solution.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I really like both outfits but I'm with OP on this one. It's very disappointing when something you love is out of reach solely because of the gender of your character. Genderlocking only limits what we can do and I strongly feel it has no place in a modern game.



I know it's silly but that lunchbox is hugely why I still haven't touched mch yet. I know it would irritate me so much to be stuck with such an obvious piece of gear that I cannot glam. It often doesn't even vaguely match the guns they're paired with.

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I wouldn't call an outfit looking different on a different gender being "genderlocking". Considering that other modern East Asian MMOs come out with genderlocked races and even genderlocked jobs, throwing a fuss over a different top feels like you're just purposefully trying to make yourself upset. Especially when you by admission don't play MCH and don't have a chocobo in this race.

Men and women in real life have different aesthetics and that carries over into the game. Some things that look good on one, don't look good on the other. Having everyone wear the same exact gender neutral clothing would be very boring.

In the case for this specific top, as others have said, the female version of the outfit is based on the character Anemone and the male version is based on the character Jackass. Considering Anemone is a higher profile character than Jackass, Anemone's design is probably the main one they wanted to include since more people (like me) probably remember Anemone more than Jackass. Anemone's top arguably has a more feminine aesthetic, so they went with a side character for inspiration for the male version (though the other character herself is female). If SE wanted to make both genders the same, then we would have had Anemone's outfit for both genders, and not the other one so the OP's problem would still exist anyway.

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Originally Posted by BunniEclair

It’s because they were cramming two characters into one piece. The male top is Jackass, and the female top is Anemone. Both characters are female, but I guess they probably tried to figure out which would be more appealing to which players and came to that conclusion. In good faith, I think it was less about making sure the goods are on display than “what kind of aesthetic would female characters enjoy more”. I’m sorry that it wasn’t the conclusion you wanted. It really sucks when the thing you desperately want is just out of your reach. :/

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This does make sense, and I appreciate the explanation. It'd be easier to assume SE acted in good faith if they didn't seem to routinely disregard MCH in aesthetics, lore, and mechanics, but that's a completely different issue.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Paladins can glamour the shield because it's a separate piece. The box is part of the gun item and could only be glamoured over if you have a specific gun that doesn't include the box - but you won't get that because lore-wise it's a separate item that we need to make the guns function in the first place.

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Even then, it's the exact same copy/pasted box. RDMs always have a Focus, but it changes on different Rapiers. The same goes for the two part weapon on ASTs. At least -something- in that regard would be nice.

I kind of wish they'd say, made Anenome's set for one, and the striking set Jackass etc, instead of the gender split.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I kind of wish they'd say, made Anenome's set for one, and the striking set Jackass etc, instead of the gender split.

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Yeah, it was also really strange how they made fending and maiming gear sets generic NieR-inspired stuff similar to what we've seen before in the other 2 raids, while the other classes get gear modeled after actual characters. I was hoping for something from the original NieR or even Drakengard to show up, but oh well.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Yeah, it was also really strange how they made fending and maiming gear sets generic NieR-inspired stuff similar to what we've seen before in the other 2 raids, while the other classes get gear modeled after actual characters. I was hoping for something from the original NieR or even Drakengard to show up, but oh well.

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Part of me was wondering if Kaine's outfit would have been in for the scouting set but I think that's probably a bit much lol. Then again we have had some skimpy outfits in the game before.

It would have been nice to at least have say Nier's actual outfit for tanking/maiming and not another generic yorha set.

Spoilers for the first Nier since the remake is coming out soon:

I kind of wish too that we'd gotten the gowns Devola and Popola wore in their boss fight in the first Nier, but I understand them focusing on Automata instead.

Or as others have suggested, the heavier armor that 2B and others wear during the big assault section would have been nice for fending. I felt that the puppet's bunker sets in general felt very samey so anything that wasn't along the same lines as that would have been nice to get.

I understand it's cramming in two characters but my mind immediately remembers what they did to RDM af gear and go, yeah gotta make sure those bobbies sure are visible

At this point I wish they'd have a toggle similar to /visor to switch between aestherics on alot of gear.

there's quite a few pieces that look amazing on one gender but lacking on the other..

might also open up some more masculine looking healer options. without frilly cuffs and skirts...

legs for example "x of healing.. oh its a skirt... /change now it's a pair of trousers with a matching aesthetic.....

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I wouldn't call an outfit looking different on a different gender being "genderlocking". Considering that other modern East Asian MMOs come out with genderlocked races and even genderlocked jobs, throwing a fuss over a different top feels like you're just purposefully trying to make yourself upset. Especially when you by admission don't play MCH and don't have a chocobo in this race.

Men and women in real life have different aesthetics and that carries over into the game. Some things that look good on one, don't look good on the other. Having everyone wear the same exact gender neutral clothing would be very boring.

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That's not the point with when we say we want non-genderlocked gear. We just want to be able to wear the designs that we want, then work around the different body types.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

That's not the point with when we say we want non-genderlocked gear. We just want to be able to wear the designs that we want, then work around the different body types.

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Then the dev team would have to do twice the work to make four models instead of two, and then make sure the new ones are properly proportioned for each of the races.

Knowing Square, do you honestly believe that they’d be OK with adding more modeling work for this? If faced with “make male and female versions of the same item of clothing available to each gender” or “make every item of clothing gender neutral so that people don’t feel like they’re missing out” they’d pick the second option. Which would mean for future content, no more bikini tops, no more bare chests, and no more thigh-highs.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Then the dev team would have to do twice the work to make four models instead of two, and then make sure the new ones are properly proportioned for each of the races.

Knowing Square, do you honestly believe that they’d be OK with adding more modeling work for this? If faced with “make male and female versions of the same item of clothing available to each gender” or “make every item of clothing gender neutral so that people don’t feel like they’re missing out” they’d pick the second option. Which would mean for future content, no more bikini tops, no more bare chests, and no more thigh-highs.

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Given the sheer volume of time and resources, this really ought not to be that hard of an ask, especially given that adapting one to the other is a lot less work than making two completely different textures and models from scratch, which they've already done.

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Originally Posted by D3VNT

Given the sheer volume of time and resources, this really ought not to be that hard of an ask, especially given that adapting one to the other is a lot less work than making two completely different textures and models from scratch, which they've already done.

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Considering Yoshi-P said we don't have male viera and female hrothgar because they don't have the resources to resize all of the existing gear for them, I think the idea of them going through the work to remodel the existing outfits to allow you to choose which gender outfit you want isn't likely. They won't even go through the work to make NPC outfits in the mogstation work for both genders.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I really like both outfits but I'm with OP on this one. It's very disappointing when something you love is out of reach solely because of the gender of your character. Genderlocking only limits what we can do and I strongly feel it has no place in a modern game.

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SE removing gender unique gear wouldn't be what people imagine though. There would simply be less unique pieces; as they would have to fit everything to everyone. Better than doing double the work.

These gender differences on gear remain super annoying and dumb.
If an item looks so different between genders that it may as well be a completely different set, than something is clearly wrong.
And sadly there are way to many examples of this in the game.
ShB Artifact gear is also an example of this, some of these like Dancer male and female could just be sets from different expansions and nobody would notice, like they don't even have the same colour scheme.
And they don't even change the item icon to fit your characters gender, sometimes resulting in some bad surprises.

I also think making some sets in this raid based on actual characters (especially important ones like Devola/Popola), while others are generic and look nearly like previous tiers was a really bad idea and makes it look like the devs prefer some jobs over others. This point could be somewhat solved by finally lifting glamour restrictions though.

Just wanted to drop in and say I'm ironically the inverse of OP's situation with the armor, I initially saw the body armor version on a random BRD and saw the non armored top one a MNK and as a SAM main thought, "neat I'm gonna get a nice and simple shirt and cape combo." low and behold I ran the raid and saw now that the obsolete set was armor on guys and non-armor on girls.

While I was bothered by it, I still want to farm the pieces so I can have a military look for the upcoming Zadnor stuff.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I wouldn't call an outfit looking different on a different gender being "genderlocking". Considering that other modern East Asian MMOs come out with genderlocked races and even genderlocked jobs, throwing a fuss over a different top feels like you're just purposefully trying to make yourself upset.

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If I cannot have an outfit look a certain way because of my character's gender then that outfit has genderlocking. Whether it means I cannot equip it, or it automatically changes based on the gender my character is.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Especially when you by admission don't play MCH and don't have a chocobo in this race.

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This is far from the only piece of gear in the game that has different looks for each gender. I can relate to OP because I had this exact issue happen to me from other gear pieces.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Men and women in real life have different aesthetics and that carries over into the game. Some things that look good on one, don't look good on the other.

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This doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to swap clothes. Anyway I've seen some men look amazing in outfits that are typically worn by women. Some people look good in -anything-.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Having everyone wear the same exact gender neutral clothing would be very boring.

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That would only be true if we had just a tiny handful of glam options in the game. There are hundreds of glam pieces in the game and when you throw in dye there is even more variation. WoW doesn't have any genderlocking on gear or dye and yet all the players manage to look very different to one another.

Of cause this is a form of genderlocking.

For example, take the new frontier glamour sets, would it make those suddenly not genderlocked if the devs merge those two itemsets into one?
The Nier items in the OP could as well just be two individual drops, locked to each gender. Of cause being raid drops doesn't allow this to happen as suddenly having twice as many possible drops would be super annoying, but historically the FF14 devs have been prety inconsistent what warrants being two locked sets, what gets merged into one and what is just fully unlocked among glamour items.

Ey man, you get Anemone's costume what you complaining about? Have you seen fending? It's 3 flavors of boring.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Ey man, you get Anemone's costume what you complaining about? Have you seen fending? It's 3 flavors of boring.

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Anemone's is just as boring imo.

Yeah, I seem to be in the minority in that I love the Fending and Maiming sets (even though I don't really play tank or DRG, sadly), but I do agree with the OP that this sort of thing is very annoying. I can in some ways appreciate that they essentially gave us near double the amount of unique gear sets in this raid BUT that doesn't mean it's not bad form to have those sets locked out specific to gender. And particularly with the pieces described by the OP there really is no reason at all for the gender discrepancy as there would be if, for example, the masculine body type variations was shirtless.

I think a long and dyeable cloak with a simple shirt is really super neat!

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I think a long and dyeable cloak with a simple shirt is really super neat!

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It's less that I dislike it, and more that I was incredibly psyched to get a piece of gear I've been wanting for years, only to find out I'd have to be a dude for it. The top itself is pretty great on its own, I just hate how they stripped it down for the female version of the same item.

Male isn't actually Jackass, but a generic resistance member, Jackass didn't have the ammo pockets, would still have been better than Anemone since she still had the camo pants and wear a hood/bandoneye instead of a headband.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ec68ff9gkwM/maxresdefault.jpg
https://lparchive.org/NieR-Automata/...42-rW6gNXC.jpg

I think these pieces of gear should have been glamour coffers... Im disappointed that I dont get more YoRHa android themed gear for my MCH or WHM. (Not the only thing Im disappointed in concerning the rewards for this collab... but definitely a meaningful part of it).

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Originally Posted by Xegodar

These gender differences on gear remain super annoying and dumb.
If an item looks so different between genders that it may as well be a completely different set, than something is clearly wrong.
And sadly there are way to many examples of this in the game.
ShB Artifact gear is also an example of this, some of these like Dancer male and female could just be sets from different expansions and nobody would notice, like they don't even have the same colour scheme.
And they don't even change the item icon to fit your characters gender, sometimes resulting in some bad surprises.

I also think making some sets in this raid based on actual characters (especially important ones like Devola/Popola), while others are generic and look nearly like previous tiers was a really bad idea and makes it look like the devs prefer some jobs over others. This point could be somewhat solved by finally lifting glamour restrictions though.

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People keep saying gender locked glam makes more unique pieces, but I seem to just keep wearing the same items (or the true neutral gear) since I have no desire for the high frill cutsey glam. I expect some people with male characters feel the same with the reverse. Better to just make a set of gear that's cute, sexy, or rugged and let people pick the glam right off the shelf for what they want.

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Originally Posted by D3VNT

Even then, it's the exact same copy/pasted box. RDMs always have a Focus, but it changes on different Rapiers. The same goes for the two part weapon on ASTs. At least -something- in that regard would be nice.

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It's the same copy-pasted box because it is the same box regardless of which gun you have equipped - a recent invention gifted to you by Stephanivien that you use in combination with the assorted guns you acquire from ancient ruins. It's just at a functional game level that they are connected into a single item.

Red magic is evidently well-established enough that rapiers do naturally come with paired foci of the same design.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Men and women in real life have different aesthetics and that carries over into the game. Some things that look good on one, don't look good on the other. Having everyone wear the same exact gender neutral clothing would be very boring.

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Not necessarily, and particularly by this game's take on gear difference where the male versions can sometimes still involve skirts - but they get pants underneath.

Quite often when gear splits by gender, I'd rather have access to the male version for my female character. Things like the level 50 summoner skirt and the level 70 bard pants are designs that I like but can't access. I'd also prefer full-shirted versions of things like the Star Velvet Himation and the new Android mage tops.

Conversely, for the shirts at least, my Au Ra alt usually wears short tops so I'd switch to the female versions of those pieces for him if I could (but keep the pants).

And just because each piece can be equipped by both genders doesn't mean they need to have the same style from one piece to the next - but that's a separate issue.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

People keep saying gender locked glam makes more unique pieces, but I seem to just keep wearing the same items (or the true neutral gear) since I have no desire for the high frill cutsey glam. I expect some people with male characters feel the same with the reverse. Better to just make a set of gear that's cute, sexy, or rugged and let people pick the glam right off the shelf for what they want.

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I think at least part of the problem is that a lot of this frustrating form-shifting gear comes as functional battle gear, in which case everyone needs to be able to wear it and having two versions would be complicated. All the gear we have that does come in pairs of gender-locked outfits (or possibly pairs of unlocked outfits) is level 1 glamour gear.

People already complain about some of the sets being too feminine on male characters (and while I don't always agree, certainly some of them are) and I don't think it would go down well if, say, the only white mage artifact gear for this expansion was a really feminine design instead of at least being somewhat different by gender.

Plus there's the issue that by conventional takes on male and female clothing, women "can" wear both skirts and pants while men only wear pants, so making an even balance of gear with skirts and gear with pants actually makes it imbalanced. It's tricky.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Then the dev team would have to do twice the work to make four models instead of two, and then make sure the new ones are properly proportioned for each of the races.

Knowing Square, do you honestly believe that they’d be OK with adding more modeling work for this? If faced with “make male and female versions of the same item of clothing available to each gender” or “make every item of clothing gender neutral so that people don’t feel like they’re missing out” they’d pick the second option. Which would mean for future content, no more bikini tops, no more bare chests, and no more thigh-highs.

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I think there's a middle ground for designs - maybe not one that they'd actually be willing to put in the double work for, or can easily manage with the current equipment system, but theoretically if they did...

The better way of defining it rather than "masculine" and "feminine" would be "revealing" and "non-revealing". Give everyone the choice of pants or shorts; full shirt or bare midriff; skirt with or without pants underneath. You'd still get bare-chested outfits for male characters, and those would get the bikini top for the female version, like the new Amalj'aa dungeon gear.

The Fireglass vest is an example that does exist in the game - both genders can equip the version that has a crop top and exposed stomach under the vest, or they can equip the version with a shirt underneath.

It would be great if they had been able to add something similar to the visor toggle on headgear that can be used to switch between different forms of body and leg gear.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

The reason is the set is based off of this character I think.

https://i.imgur.com/V8rUOcB.png

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I know that's the reference point, but they should've gone with making Jackass both the f and m Aiming and Anemone's the Striking/Scouting for both genders too... This way you would have access to one or the other regardless.

It's funny because the difference is not like... a skirt that turns into pants. Instead they feature differences that makes no sense for the usual gendering of gear. A pocket vest? The male version looking like rags and the female looking pristine? Camo pants for males but not for females?

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Originally Posted by Moonsprite

There are weekly quests available after you finish the raid. There could be some glamour associated with them later on. I happen to like the female version of the aiming set better. I, however, like more cute outfits, robes, etc. My favorite Nier chest piece is the female casting one from the factory (Yorha-51 casting). I wouldn’t mind having neutral sets if they added glamour coffers with different versions in them. I don’t really see this set being different based on gender though. It looks to me like they just wanted to include both sets. Too bad it wasn’t a coffer instead.

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If there would be any more rewards they most likely would've been leaked already as they need to be in the local files, except they add something in 5.55, but I think that's rather unlikely.

Also it is different based on gender, that's just how it is, the devs reason doesn't even matter. If they really wanted both, than they should have made them as full sets for different jobs. And if that is not possible for time constraints, than they should have decided on one they think is more important and drop the other without ever telling anybody about it.

It just boils down again to the dev team making compromises again and that is never good. I always say: Not adding something is better than adding something half/in a limited way. Because people can't get angry about missing out on something they never knew was an option. But once you implement options people don't get a choice over, there is always players who prefer the other option, in any direction, and get unhappy.

My thoughts on this exactly... they have different vibes, they're entirely different sets, not variants of the same gear imo. If they wanna include both designs then make 2 separate. I should be able to choose between a badass post-apo mercenary look and some middle-eastern maiden with a carpet on her back...

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Originally Posted by Rayo

Just wanted to drop in and say I'm ironically the inverse of OP's situation with the armor, I initially saw the body armor version on a random BRD and saw the non armored top one a MNK and as a SAM main thought, "neat I'm gonna get a nice and simple shirt and cape combo." low and behold I ran the raid and saw now that the obsolete set was armor on guys and non-armor on girls.

While I was bothered by it, I still want to farm the pieces so I can have a military look for the upcoming Zadnor stuff.

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This was my problem on my main. I WANT the simple shirt and cape for my BRD, but I don't get the option. I'm stuck with the tactical vest that ONLY looks good on MCH and other than getting it to 80, I don't play it. I'm really upset that SE continues to gender lock items when it's literally less work for them to make one set for both genders and just make it work on all the models, than to design and model two sets of gear for ONE item.