Portable Orchestrion

\o/ Hello!

So, i was thinking recently how nice it would be if we could have a portable orchestrion on our characters. Doesn't have to be just a user interface option, but maybe an actual item, kind of like the tomestone phone.

The idea is having something that will allow us to play specific Orchestrion Rolls as background music, that way we can select what's playing on the background while we fly around doing fates, crafting or other stuff outside of dungeons/raids etc.

I love the FFXIV music, but some city-background songs get boring after a while.. and it would be nice to have an IN-Game feature to maybe play some of the orchestrions we have on an "mp3"-like device.

It could be a interface like the Fashion Accessories for Umbrellas, but you select an orchestrion to play in the background.

Yes, i know, you can just disable BGM then play something on Spotify/YouTube or whatever, but it would be a nice quality of life service to have this option within the game.

agghgh this topic AGAIN. please do a search before posting.

it is not possible to do this in the open world. not with the way the game's audio is coded and the need for data to be carried around everywhere.

there is a reason why Orchestrions are limited to where they can be used you know!

oh no, how dare i post something in the forums without doing a search before...
how dare i not spend more time in the forum.. oh no, would you look at that, i have only 1 post.. pff peasant, shame on me.

idk if i dare look at your 2.5k posts, given the way your reply starts dude.. go have some water and calm ur moustache.

Seems like the basic tech is already there. You can carry around however many different specific mount music.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

Seems like the basic tech is already there. You can carry around however many different specific mount music.

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Mount music works by using the same secondary music channel that battle themes use while muting the primary (zone music) channel (hence why you can't mount when you're under attack), and the mount's coding tells the client what track to use - this is also why most mounts just use a default theme but that some have special themes, each mount needs to be coded individually if a unique music track is needed to play, and that includes existing mounts that have to be retroactively changed to play a unique theme, each mount has to have this change to it's coding made individually, a costly and time-consuming activity.

The fact is, a portable orchestrion simply is not possible due to how the game's sound is coded (with the aforementioned primary and secondary channels, as the secondary channel which the orchestrion normally uses is required for battle music and mount themes and hence the channel is already needed to be kept 'free' for that reason - as you don't have battles inside houses, that secondary channel is thus free to be used by the orchestrion there). SE knows it's a greatly desired request from players though, but sadly it just isn't a possibility.

That makes sense, but still seems like an easier enough task.

You say mount music uses secondary channel. Same as battle themes. Same as orchestrion. And it seems like there is already a priority going, where mount music, if selected in settings, takes priority over normal music. They would just need to figure out which of orchestrion or mount music to be priority over the other, with both being priority over normal music. Do they want players to hear orchestrion above mount, or mount first, then when dismount orchestrion, and when in combat, combat.

Nothing extra needs to be done for orchestrion music itself as they are already tied into the game. They don't need to be tied to an object like a mount. Playing music is as simple as a slight addition to the already used Orchestrion List. Some little button or box or something to play the one song. Or heck like minions, mounts and emotes have a small favorite list, and have it play those. I guess there could be an additional thing under Collection instead but that seems redundant providing they can make a clean O List UI change.

It seems weird that a secondary channel is the main reason why you can't mount in combat (versus SE just not wanting you to), and you can have 2 different streams of sounds share one channel, with a determined order of priority, but you can't have 3 share 1 channel with a priority. Using music already in game that's not tied to any object like a mount.

because orchestrion rolls are optional, not everyone will have the same list of music - this means that more information needs to be carried on the individuals character. devs have said in the past they try to limit this as much as possible.

Why do so many people labor under the impression that "that's how it's coded" is some kind of answer to the question? Change how it's coded. It's just code. It's not magic. It's been correctly pointed out that the game is already capable of playing a music track audible to only the player and not to others. That's the tech needed for this. After that it's just a matter of managing the data transfers involved. Perhaps a limited playlist you could put together in the presence of a full-size orchestrion that would then be able to come with you into the world without creating any kind of undue burden on the server... not that orchestrion data is all that large. I'd be STUNNED if the whole thing was more than a kilobyte per character... perhaps two.

Oh and

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Mount music works by using the same secondary music channel that battle themes use while muting the primary (zone music) channel (hence why you can't mount when you're under attack)

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That's not even sort of why you can't mount in combat.

yes let's just "Change the coding" like it's as simple as that. smh

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

yes let's just "Change the coding" like it's as simple as that. smh

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It... is as simple as that. How do you think any changes happen in any program ever? I'll admit that back when source code had to be chiseled into stone tablets making changes was a mite more difficult, but those were dark times and we don't do that anymore.

It is not that simple. I'm sure it's possible, the devs could rewrite and rearrange the entire game if they wanted to, but how much time and resources would it take to do so? This is one of those things that's probably just not worth the time and effort it would take to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

It is not that simple. I'm sure it's possible, the devs could rewrite and rearrange the entire game if they wanted to, but how much time and resources would it take to do so? This is one of those things that's probably just not worth the time and effort it would take to accomplish.

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Sigh

The request wasn't "turn FFXIV into a first-person shooter" it was "let me pick my music track in the open world" which, I will again remind, is ALREADY A THING YOU CAN DO. The request here is for that system to be slightly expanded to include more tracks and an interface to manipulate them.

The constant appeal to hyperbole is not compelling. No one is asking for the entire game to be rewritten. This is a logical expansion on an existing system. It should be well within the scope of possibility to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Sigh

The request wasn't "turn FFXIV into a first-person shooter" it was "let me pick my music track in the open world" which, I will again remind, is ALREADY A THING YOU CAN DO. The request here is for that system to be slightly expanded to include more tracks and an interface to manipulate them.

The constant appeal to hyperbole is not compelling. No one is asking for the entire game to be rewritten. This is a logical expansion on an existing system. It should be well within the scope of possibility to accomplish.

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except, it isn't. think of it like painting in oils and watercolor. the painting is originally in oils - layers, and layers, and layers of oils, with not a space in between for watercolor to seep into the canvas. they thought that painting it this way would accomplish what they want - and it did! (sort of). But now in order to paint with watercolor, the canvas that would've been there and available is, well, gone. the person painting now needs to either switch canvases or shovel off the layers of oil paint that are already there. as a stop gap, they've painted the canvas white and added a layer of finish to it so that they can "mimic" a fresh canvas - but all the oil is underneath, and it's messing with some of the stuff they'd like to do but cant.

alternatively, think of it like a house with popcorn ceilings: anything you want to do, you have to do carefully, slowly, and the unconventional way, unless you want to bring in the guys with hazmat suits because popcorn ceilings contain asbestos and you don't want to mess with that.

Codes for music subsystem doesn’t sound like something that’d be updated/maintained often, so it’s possible it could be very old. (Worst case it could be carried over from 1.0 and just padded with workarounds every time a fix needs to be made)

Adding the ability to play user-selected playlist in the open world + cities would be a sweeping change to the existing music subsystem. Even if the coding itself end up being simple to do (which may or may not be the case), they’d still have to test it for every place in game where they use music. In other words, every field, city, duty, and in-game cinematics.

Obviously no one outside of FFXIV development team would know how easy/difficult it’d be to rewrite/refactor their music subsystem. But at a time when they are expected to be focused on developing new contents, changes to something that is already considered working, like the music system, is likely not going to get priority.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

The request wasn't "turn FFXIV into a first-person shooter" it was "let me pick my music track in the open world" which, I will again remind, is ALREADY A THING YOU CAN DO. The request here is for that system to be slightly expanded to include more tracks and an interface to manipulate them.

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This is why developers hate users. They think they know everything when they usually know literally nothing.

"It already does y and z. Just go back and add x. Easy." But it was never designed to do x. The user looks at the front end and imagines how easy it must be, while the devs are look at the back end and know that to add x they'd first have to completely redesign r, s, t, u, v, and w for it to work.

Now in this particular case I don't know the game's code any more than you do, but I guarantee it's not nearly as easy as it looks. It never is.

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Originally Posted by Seleni

Codes for music subsystem doesn’t sound like something that’d be updated/maintained often, so it’s possible it could be very old. (Worst case it could be carried over from 1.0 and just padded with workarounds every time a fix needs to be made)

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Oh god, or what if it's still leftover coding from FF11.
We all know 14 was built using its bones...

I can honestly say that is not the case - FFXIV ARR (and 1.0 before it) used entirelly different engines to FFXI, and that includes sound coding.

It's just how Soken has implemented the use of sound and music in the game is restrictive and doesn't allow additions outside "the box" so to speak, which is why a portable orchestrion simply isn't possible sadly.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I can honestly say that is not the case - FFXIV ARR (and 1.0 before it) used entirelly different engines to FFXI,

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No they have said there is FF11 code in there.
14 wasn't 100% made from scratch, especially since it was supposed to link to FF11.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

This is why developers hate users.

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Only jaded (or super arrogant) developers hate users. I've been a developer working on large user-facing projects. This is why I'm completely certain that code can be modified and is not, in fact, carved in stone (or oil on canvas or whatever that was about up there).

I didn't say it'd be easy. I said it was within the scope of possibility because the system already does some of what it would need to do. There'd be no need to create brand new tech here, just some modification to what's already in place.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

But it was never designed to do x

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The game wasn't designed with flying in mind, we can do that now. Believe me that was a MUCH larger change than is being proposed here.
The game wasn't designed to have collectables, but somehow that's now a thing.
The game didn't ship with duty roulettes. Remember having to spam Castrum Meridianum to cap tomestones? I do.
The game didn't ship with a glamour system. Letting one piece of gear look like another piece of gear? Blasphemy!
The game didn't ship with GPose. Changing outdoor visual effects so that they'd only be visible to the player was a big deal. But changing outdoor audio that only changes for the player is a bridge too far apparently?

I could go on and on.... and on.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

The game wasn't designed with flying in mind, we can do that now. Believe me that was a MUCH larger change than is being proposed here.

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Yeah, but it also affects every single player in a huge way. The time vs effort tradeoff was apparently worth it. Personal orchestrion is a cool idea, but not a game changing one the way flying is. Not even close.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

But changing outdoor audio that only changes for the player is a bridge too far apparently?

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Apparently. Obviously it's not literally impossible to implement, but if it was that easy they probably would have just done it already rather than giving us the same answer year after year

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Only jaded (or super arrogant) developers hate users. I've been a developer working on large user-facing projects. This is why I'm completely certain that code can be modified and is not, in fact, carved in stone (or oil on canvas or whatever that was about up there).

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True. Many developers likely don’t hate users; they don’t have to interact with them. They might hate Sales though, who’d promise users a moon when the team doesn’t even have a rocket.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I didn't say it'd be easy. I said it was within the scope of possibility because the system already does some of what it would need to do. There'd be no need to create brand new tech here, just some modification to what's already in place.

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A senior developer I’d known often said anything is possible, given resource and time, with the implied caveat that the latter two are the limiting factors.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

The game wasn't designed with flying in mind, we can do that now. Believe me that was a MUCH larger change than is being proposed here.
The game wasn't designed to have collectables, but somehow that's now a thing.
The game didn't ship with duty roulettes. Remember having to spam Castrum Meridianum to cap tomestones? I do.
The game didn't ship with a glamour system. Letting one piece of gear look like another piece of gear? Blasphemy!
The game didn't ship with GPose. Changing outdoor visual effects so that they'd only be visible to the player was a big deal. But changing outdoor audio that only changes for the player is a bridge too far apparently?

I could go on and on.... and on.

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Assuming you’re a developer for a commercial product, how would you justify the resources needed for this requested change?

Many of the features you listed are available in other competing MMO(s), so the justification was likely not difficult: they are considered needed to stay competitive.

Would this requested change help to increase number of subscribers? Or would it help to retain existing subscriber that would otherwise quit the game? How many users do you actually expect to actually be using this feature, given that it’s limited to music from this game and a couple from other FF series? Could it possibly decrease sales of soundtracks/music? (This might be countered by online store sales of orchestrion rolls) Would the existing license work for vocal songs, or will those need to be excluded from fields?

If the resources needed can be justified, then this feature request might actually get implemented. After all, music seems quite a big part of the FF franchise.

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Originally Posted by Seleni

Assuming you’re a developer for a commercial product, how would you justify the resources needed for this requested change?

Many of the features you listed are available in other competing MMO(s), so the justification was likely not difficult: they are considered needed to stay competitive.

Would this requested change help to increase number of subscribers? Or would it help to retain existing subscriber that would otherwise quit the game? How many users do you actually expect to actually be using this feature, given that it’s limited to music from this game and a couple from other FF series? Could it possibly decrease sales of soundtracks/music? (This might be countered by online store sales of orchestrion rolls) Would the existing license work for vocal songs, or will those need to be excluded from fields?

If the resources needed can be justified, then this feature request might actually get implemented. After all, music seems quite a big part of the FF franchise.

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At last, an actual discussion!

I'll freely admit this wouldn't be a banner feature. Unlikely to affect subscriber numbers in any significant way unless you put something else behind it. FFXV allowed you to purchase soundtracks from other Final Fantasy titles (and a few they just made up) to play in your car between waypoints. Did that drive sales numbers? It's unlikely. Was it a nice touch? You bet. So that's a thought. The fact that this request keeps popping up over and over suggests that there's a large enough segment of the population that would be interested in using it, though obviously neither you nor I have the data necessary to give any kind of real answer to that question. Again it'd fall under the "would be nice" category. I can see some potential revenue streams from selling in-game versions of soundtracks from previous games. As much as I hate asking for things to be put on the cash shop in a subscription game, I do recognize that it's a necessary decision point and this feature would open up that possibility. Right now they sell orchestrated versions of FFXIV music on the mog station, but you can still only listen to it sitting in your room. This kind of thing would broaden that potential audience away from being exclusively limited to "people who like to sit in their room."

Music IS a big deal in the Final Fantasy franchise and over the course of 30+ years it's amassed a lot of good music that could be put to productive use here. As to your question about harming sales of soundtracks, I think it's unlikely given the subscription nature of FFXIV and the effort necessary to play said music in-game. It isn't a substitute for playing that music anywhere else and doesn't affect at all those people who aren't FFXIV players in the first place but still enjoy FF music.

Honestly, just speaking for myself here, but I'd rather have resources to change old code, or implement a new one, to have a portable orchestrion roll instead of Doman Mahjong. And I believe they dumped a lot of resources in that thing.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Honestly, just speaking for myself here, but I'd rather have resources to change old code, or implement a new one, to have a portable orchestrion roll instead of Doman Mahjong. And I believe they dumped a lot of resources in that thing.

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More players in Japan wanted it than people want portable orchestrion. JP wins.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

More players in Japan wanted it than people want portable orchestrion. JP wins.

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. . . That's a rather broad claim.
Can you prove that? Or is that just your hunch about JP's wants.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Honestly, just speaking for myself here, but I'd rather have resources to change old code, or implement a new one, to have a portable orchestrion roll instead of Doman Mahjong. And I believe they dumped a lot of resources in that thing.

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Remember Lords of Verminion? They were SUPER proud of that one and they had to create new systems from scratch for it.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Remember Lords of Verminion? They were SUPER proud of that one and they had to create new systems from scratch for it.

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UGH. Verminion...

Sorry, I retcon what I said... Verminion instead of Mahjong lol.