Diferent kind of Tanks

would like to watch diferent kind of Tanks... yes as it is... not have PLD to be the only tank... why not have a PLD be the typical meat shield Tank against the high Accuracy and AoE(Area of Efect) spammer mobs, but allow MNK to become the evasion/counter striker Tank oriented against High Damage monsters that maybe attack slow and have lack of AoE moves but each move could be deadly to a PLD or anyone else if not evaded, could even make a WAR a new sort of tank oriented to short period time tanking, by having abilities to endure a monster for a short period of time then receive some sort of mitigation if the fight prolonges too long, it would make them the specialist on tank at rush roaming exp parties but not the best at tankin serious monsters like a mega boss from a raid or an avatar and such.

Would like to watch also a "Mage Tank" ... yeah a mage tank... that be specialist on tanking monsters that attack from long distance such like other mages or even archer/bard monsters.

This would be more versatile and would avoid the monopoly of exp parties in a certain point, open gates to new style of gaming. but more importantly break the monotony of always bring the same party setup for everything.

Wait, are you suggesting that WAR isn't a tank?

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

Wait, are you suggesting that WAR isn't a tank?

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No, dont get me wrong.... by the other hand... im very aware WAR is likely the current Tank for everything. while PLDs are cryin out they should be the main indescutible Tanks for everything.... why there should be only 1 single tank for everything? yes i know every job has their own role, but think about this, if there is multiple kinds of Damage dealers, and you see people is already askin also for diferent kinds of mages..... why not also have diferent kind of Tanks? why have to be always only 1 that be the meat shield style, why not diferent styles of tankin for diferent battle scenarios? relly only on meat shield tanking gets monotone over time, doesnt matters if you just change the rol from one job to other and still be same style of tanking...

And dont confuse what im asking, WAR or PLD , both are just meat shields.... what im asking is for diferent style of tankin other than beign meat shield.... by adding evasive tanking, or counter bstriker, or magical tanker for non melee monsters (such like kiting or ranged attack style fight).

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Originally Posted by BadOmen

no.... by the other hand... im very aware WAR is likely the current Tank for everything. while PLDs are cryin out they should be the main indescutible Tanks for everything.... why there should be only 1 single tank for everything? yes i know every job has their own role, but think about this, if there is multiple kinds of Damage dealers, and you see people is already askin also for diferent kinds of mages..... why not also have diferent kind of Tanks? why have to be always only 1 that be the meat shield style, why not diferent styles of tankin for diferent battle scenarios? this gets monotone over time.

And dont confuse what im asking, WAR or PLD , both are just meat shields.... what im asking if for diferent style of tankin other than beign meat shield.... by adding evasive tanking, or counter bstriker, or magical tanker for non melee monsters (such like kiting or ranged attack style fight).

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Oh, i get it now lol.

My blm is a tank too, thats different

The issue with various "kinds" tanking is that it's incredibly difficult to balance them against varying encounters. In a vacuum, you can assign values to abilities, how much survivability they grant, damage they reduce, threat they generate.

In the field, there will always be an optimal tank for an encounter though. Your choices are then, require the raid to bring all types of tanks, and swap them out during different fights. In which case all tanks need to have an alternative role that's actually useful, or in FFXIV's case, you are implicating that players need to roll with multiple jobs in a raid, specifically tank players.

Neither is a particularly desirable solution.

You can also require they only bring one tank, and balance each encounter so that any tank can be proficient, but that one tank will excel at varying situations. What will happen in reality if you take this path, is that a guild/linkshell will use the tank class that gets them past whichever fight is the most difficult with the least amount of trouble. I.E. the final boss, or most difficult boss in the dungeon. So if Warrior excels at the most difficult fight, and they must choose one, they will bring a warrior, as they can make up for its lack of excellence more easily on the easier fights.

Path of least resistance.

We're programmed to take that path. Paladin is not particularly terrible as it stands, Warrior is just better in many situations. So Warrior is the default unless you're running with an open minded LS. No matter what route they take, there will always be the current king, whether due to the strength of their own abilities, or due to the types of enemies found in the content.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

The issue with various "kinds" tanking is that it's incredibly difficult to balance them against varying encounters. In a vacuum, you can assign values to abilities, how much survivability they grant, damage they reduce, threat they generate.

In the field, there will always be an optimal tank for an encounter though. Your choices are then, require the raid to bring all types of tanks, and swap them out during different fights. In which case all tanks need to have an alternative role that's actually useful, or in FFXIV's case, you are implicating that players need to roll with multiple jobs in a raid, specifically tank players.

Neither is a particularly desirable solution.

You can also require they only bring one tank, and balance each encounter so that any tank can be proficient, but that one tank will excel at varying situations. What will happen in reality if you take this path, is that a guild/linkshell will use the tank class that gets them past whichever fight is the most difficult with the least amount of trouble. I.E. the final boss, or most difficult boss in the dungeon. So if Warrior excels at the most difficult fight, and they must choose one, they will bring a warrior, as they can make up for its lack of excellence more easily on the easier fights.

Path of least resistance.

We're programmed to take that path. Paladin is not particularly terrible as it stands, Warrior is just better in many situations. So Warrior is the default unless you're running with an open minded LS. No matter what route they take, there will always be the current king, whether due to the strength of their own abilities, or due to the types of enemies found in the content.

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All you say is right, but have in consideration unlike other MORPGS and very in special FFXI, on FFXIV we can change job/class/roll at any moment, including in midle of dungeons, wich allow us to easily adapt to the circumstances, and i believe SE have made clear their intentions to make us play more than 1 job/class in a single character, so lets give an use of this feature that makes this game unique?

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Originally Posted by BadOmen

All you say is right, but have in consideration unlike other MORPGS and very in special FFXI, on FFXIV we can change job/class/roll at any moment, including in midle of dungeons, wich allow us to easily adapt to the circumstances, and i believe SE have made clear their intentions to make us play more than 1 job/class in a single character, so lets give an use of this feature that makes this game unique?

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I don't envy the job of balancing this game, the fact that you can switch jobs in a dungeon doesn't make the job easier, it makes it significantly more difficult. With the current job system, if the optimal setup changes from boss to boss, there's absolutely no reason you simply can't change jobs to the optimal setup for each encounter.

Black Mage do way better DPS for this fight? Paladin best tank? 1 PLD, 2 WHM, 5 BLM. Dragoon best DPS next, and WAR a better tank? Everyone change to 1 WAR, 2 WHM, 5 DRG, etc.

This forces people to level numerous jobs, and some people feel very attached to playing their main. If you try to design content to cater to groups that run with a balanced job setup, and groups that change to optimal jobs on a per encounter basis, you make the content either significantly too difficult for the former, or significantly too easy for the later.

They have two options if they want to please everyone (well mostly everyone) in 2.0, as far as I can see. Include a normal and hard mode for content, and balance normal for a static job group, and hard for a group that changes jobs. Or don't change any of the encounter stats, moves, etc. from normal to hard mode, and simply lock jobs on entry in hard mode.

We'll see what they surprise us with though, hopefully it's something that we can all get behind.

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Originally Posted by Ramsey

I don't envy the job of balancing this game, the fact that you can switch jobs in a dungeon doesn't make the job easier, it makes it significantly more difficult. With the current job system, if the optimal setup changes from boss to boss, there's absolutely no reason you simply can't change jobs to the optimal setup for each encounter.

Black Mage do way better DPS for this fight? Paladin best tank? 1 PLD, 2 WHM, 5 BLM. Dragoon best DPS next, and WAR a better tank? Everyone change to 1 WAR, 2 WHM, 5 DRG, etc.

This forces people to level numerous jobs, and some people feel very attached to playing their main. If you try to design content to cater to groups that run with a balanced job setup, and groups that change to optimal jobs on a per encounter basis, you make the content either significantly too difficult for the former, or significantly too easy for the later.

They have two options if they want to please everyone (well mostly everyone) in 2.0, as far as I can see. Include a normal and hard mode for content, and balance normal for a static job group, and hard for a group that changes jobs. Or don't change any of the encounter stats, moves, etc. from normal to hard mode, and simply lock jobs on entry in hard mode.

We'll see what they surprise us with though, hopefully it's something that we can all get behind.

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Yup, i definetivelly agree with you on this, but sadly this seems to be the rute SE is takin, look at current raids, there seems to be 2 steps of the fights, lets take example of cutter's cry raid, for princess ant most people bring 1 tank for princess, 1 melee to hold marshal and then 2 healers and rest mostly blms and other melees, but then this same group makes some of their members change from melee dd and secondary tank to blm to kill chimera by having only 1 tank, 2 healers and everyone else blm.... not everyone do it this way, but at least on my server most succesful runs do it this way.

and all raids so far seems to be same way, dividing their dungeons by sections in wich you can make member to change their jobs to diferent challenges in betwen. And this is something i actually enjoy from raids, make them more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by BadOmen

WAR is likely the current Tank for everything. while PLDs are cryin out they should be the main indescutible Tanks for everything.... why there should be only 1 single tank for everything?

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I didn't think PLD wanted to be the undisputed tank. they just wanted to not lose the popularity contest 19 times out of 20 to WAR.

War can hold hate better because their native DPS > enmity gear + heals

WAR has better survivability because they have huge resist potential and vastly superior defense /HP ratings. This still doesnt make sense to me.

And don't get me started on how a GLA > PLD in most combat situations... They seriously have some work to do on the job.

The idea behind the 'tank' is to ensure that the party as a whole does not get hurt. This usually involves two key things:
Hate management
Damage mitigation

(It is not safe for a tank that can hold hate but gets knocked out with one shot ; ; or one that can never get hurt but never holds hate either ^.^;;). So those are the main things that can be played with


-- Holds hate, gets hit, but shrugs it off (PLD, WAR)
-- Holds hate, avoids getting hit (Ninja! O.o)
-- Holds hate, monster can not hit (O.o? Some kind of tank that can constantly freeze/paralyze/stun a monster?)

-- Does not hold hate, but makes everyone else shrug off damage (Super WHM without -1000000 enmity)
-- Does not hold hate, but gives everyone perfect dodge/etc (Ninja-ga? o.o)
-- Does not hold hate, but stops monster from being able to hurt anyone (Super RDM/Enfeebler galore)



We have room for more ways to ensure the party as a whole does not get hurt badly while attacking big mean mobs. It would be interesting to see some more of these dynamics.

At the moment, I do know it is possible to have some 'unusual' 'tanks' besides PLD and WAR but it does not seem to happy much (or is very good?)

I love more tanks, i would also love more healers, while not an issue in endgame content, its a big issue in EXP PT's when majority of time you cant get a healer.

I dont like how WAR is the tank for everything right now, PLD is pretty much useless.