I know that this suggestion might not be welcomed by the community, but I think that dungeons could use a bit of a revamp to bring more content into the game and increase dungeon replayability. Right now, most dungeons are centered around either spamming them for levels or just to grind out roulettes. Most of this content is trivial to players who have cleared the dungeon already, and the only real exciting moments is when someone messes up, doesn’t dodge a mechanic, or simply stands in the wrong place and takes some additional damage. What if there was a system in place that allowed a group of four seasoned players to be challenged by dungeon content where the dungeon increased in difficulty (mob HP, damage taken, dungeon timer shortened, etc.) in order to push players who were looking for a challenge?
Expert Dungeons - Take the dungeons already in place and just add “expert” versions of these dungeons. Players, from the Group Finder Menu, could select to run the dungeon in whatever difficulty mode they would desire ranging in difficulty from 1-25 (or more). Levels 1-5 would be available to them, and clearing lvl5 would open up higher ranks of selectable difficulty, and so on. Mobs have higher HP amounts, do more damage, and may require the group to pull mobs in certain order or at a certain pace to ensure survivability. The dungeon timer would be reduced in order to “push” players to finish the dungeon within time. Of course, these limitations would be enhanced the higher you pushed you pushed the dungeon difficulty.
Linking to Story - It would be important to bring a story element to the dungeons, so tying this type of content in with Cid and some sort of newly discovered Allag technology where the Warrior of Light could train to improve their own skills to overcome upcoming events.
Rewards - Rewarding players for pushing this type of content would also need to be provided, outside of just tomestones. The suggested rewards I had in mind were centered around dyes, glamour pieces (specialized to running this type of content), materia, gil, cards, mounts (for achieving higher levels of difficulty), housing items, and other types of non-marketable items. I do not like the idea of adding in gear that scales with dungeon difficulty because I feel that would trivialize other aspects of the game and create a situation where the Devs would be having to scale content based upon this gear. Likewise, adding scaling gear from these dungeons would make the concept mandatory for other players and center the entire game around running these dungeons for increasingly higher ilvls of equipment to make other content easier. However, the rewards need to be incentivizing enough to make the content desirable to run and repeat without disrupting all other forms of content.
Expert Dungeon System
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03-11-2021, 11:08 PMsynnapExpert Dungeon System
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03-11-2021, 11:50 PMRongway
A lot of what you're describing is just Deep Dungeon challenge floor sets.
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03-12-2021, 01:27 AMItMe
Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems like you're asking for dungeons with higher numbers and a relevant timer. While I would enjoy harder dungeons, I feel like they need more than a number tweak to make them fresh.
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03-12-2021, 12:25 PMYuella
you can do them with minimum ilvl
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03-15-2021, 10:27 AMAbsurdity
The issue with dungeons isn't just a "numbers" issue.
Their layout is uninspired, they basically all follow the formula of 2-3 trash packs placed in straight corridors, then some kind of barrier that prevents progress, another 2 trash packs in a straight corridor, then a boss, rinse and repeat. Sure, they may look fancy the first time you're in there but that's basically all these dungeons amount to for a long time now.
On top of that the trash is usually just as boring, most of the time they just do physical or magical auto attacks with maybe an easily avoidable aoe in-between.
This makes it incredibly easy to speedrun the dungeons since navigation is simply a one-way street, but it doesn't make for a very engaging experience. -
03-15-2021, 11:27 AMJirah
again yoship stated several times there have zero interest in making any sort of hardcore content for a 4-man, more so as SHB got rid of optional dungeons as all of them are mandatory, and trusts probably arent tuned for anything too hard. There are several methods to go around this
1- Severe any affiliation with Roulettes
Sadly ppl dont run roulettes to think its usually for exp and tomes as such must be treated differently unless they got there own roulette
2- Turn them into 8-man
sadly 4-man content will never have anything hardcore unless yoship changes his mind, 8 man is easier for the healers and easier to balance and use more interesting mechanics
3-Make Gimmick runs
Niche as hell but to make the runs more interesting and have stuff like speed bonuses, Perfect runs where any invul turns to doom instead, Dare devil runs where if someone wipes they are booted from the instance similar to POTD, Invisible mode where the bosses dont telegraph attacks or some masochistic combination of the 3
4- Just make them more engaging
Not Matoyas relict savage but like general stuff, have different routes like a labyrinth style, take it easy on the gating to allow a level of discipline , add some layers to it like: DPS checks, mid trash pull mechanics, Mild Heal checks, Mobs with aggro resets, mobs that summon other mobs, Mobs with stunable raid wide damage, Mobs that Spawn in after a certain amount of time to layer out the tanks role, tethered mobs, Mobs with tank busters, Hazards like traps or aoe debris, elements that make the runs different each time like mobile mobs, Random spawns, possibilities are pretty vast and im shocked time and time again they dont do anything and stick to the most generic stuff. Bosses are usually fine just severly undertuned at times -
03-15-2021, 11:28 AMJirahSHb didnt have a deep dungeonQuote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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03-15-2021, 11:36 AMJirahlayout may be a issue but i think its the lackluster trash pulls that make up half the instance, Look at Relict for example. They gate the crap out of you to make sure your careful which is such a crappy attitude to have almost handholdy in a way far more so than sastasha which is very lax and very sad. For trash to be engaging they need to shuffle each role at its coreQuote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
Tanks- Guide and direct the crowd and to keep the crowd manageable or you die and to not bite more than you can chew and to aggro all strays and to keep away from hazards
DPS- Deal damage, but also be ready to stun and interrupt and prioritize certain mobs if need be and of course keeping away from aoes and hazards
Healer- Keep the team alive, and be ready for Aoes or to deal damage if need be
Relict, still my example, does the absolute bare minimum -
03-15-2021, 03:15 PMIscahThe thing is, even when the dungeons aren't constructed that way, players treat them like they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
Side rooms in Sastasha. What are they?
Branching paths in Toto-Rak. When did anyone ever take the alternate route through the first zone? One tank in all the times I've played it.
Puzzles and treasure keys in Qarn. Lol no, we're just going to barrel straight past them and deliberately do the puzzle wrong because it's quicker to deal with the trap than to disarm it.
If I was a dungeon designer, I don't think I'd bother trying to make them interesting any more either. -
03-15-2021, 03:28 PMRufalusNone of those old examples gave a good incentive to explore side rooms. Failing in the past shouldn't be a reason to give up entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
For exciting replayability there has to be more RNG things involved pretty much. Different things that can occur on each playthrough that forces the player to make decisions.
The type of rewards and the way rewards are earned have to be overhauled alongside the dungeon structure so it's not just race to the finish for a fixed amount of tomes. -
03-15-2021, 06:34 PMForteNightshadeWhat incentive do people have to explore though? If I don't need the accessory drop in Brayflox, then I have no reason to deviate. The issue with older ARR dungeons is the dev team added branching paths with no reason to explore them. They just expected us to. Which is fine on a first run, but afterwards... well, I don't have a reason to care about it anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
As Rufalus said, there needs to be compelling RNG to incentivize exploration. If going down a different path gave you bonus tomes or gil, people would be far more interested in taking detours. -
03-15-2021, 11:11 PMDzian
The issue is the game is built around the Duty Finder. So dungeons have to be linear and boring. If you had optional paths with optional bosses and optional rewards and then stuck that dungeon in the duty finder your basically asking asking for trouble.. You get matched to a group where 1 guy wants to take this path. Another guy that path. Someone else just wants to burn the quickest route possible.. It'd be disastrous.
The only way it could work is if matchmaking was completely disabled and players had to make there own groups...
Then comes the rewards they're all trash anyway. How often do you run an expert roulette or any dungeon really and the whole party completely ignores all the treasure chests. Because they don't contain anything of value...
Essentially if multiple routes ever existed players would just always take the fastest one because they already ignore treasure..
POTD HOH is yet another example. optional rooms get ignored its just activate the portal and go straight up. because the rewards from exploring the optional rooms are worthless trash...people evenignore the brown chests because they offer nothing valuable enough to make it worth wasting a few seconds dealingwith a potential mimic.. -
03-16-2021, 12:45 AMReynTimeThat's because the dev team for whatever reason decided to scrap the bonus chest system from 1.1X. Those justified exploring, because there were bonus for clearing optional bosses/areas or opening certain chests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
IMO it was a big mistake. They tried to do optional paths/dead-ends during ARR despite removing the only thing motivating players to explore more than once per character if even that.
Moreover, as long as every dungeon is meant to be included in a daily roulette, there will always be a majority of players who just want to hurry and get it done. I don't care if the designers are so short-sighted now that they insist 4-8p dungeons can't be more than they are. If they implemented non-hallway sim dungeons designed not to be part of roulettes and give their own rewards, featuring the bonus chest mechanic again, I'm pretty sure it would work better than they expect.
Make bonus chest give mats for glamour recipe that can't be gotten otherwise, mount/minion chance, extra tomestones, or maybe even long-lasting role-wide leveling gear as a tiny extra if any of these dungeons could be spread across lower level tiers. It's not like there is a lack of things to use poetics for anyway.