Summoner and Buttons

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02-27-2021, 08:19 PM
Luin

Summoner and Buttons

Please explain, I'm not a good Summoner.

DWT - Cannot be executed with maximum units of Dreadwyrm Aether or when Demi-Bahamut is summoned.

Deathflare - Can only be executed while in Dreadwyrm Trance.

Why cant DWT share the same button as Bahamut? You can never use DWT if you have Bahamut, and you can never Baha if you have Phoenix, unless I am misreading.

And Deathflare can never be used outside of DWT, and you can never have a Demi- during DWT, so why cant Deathflare be on the same button as Enkindle?

Also, Firebird changes your Ruin3 and Outburst, why cant Fountain of Fire grant Hellish Conduit, and that changes Fountain of Fire into Brand of Purgatory, without needing to change Outburst? Do most people put Outburst and Ruin3 in places easy to alternate between? This is smaller complaint than DWT/Deathflare though.
02-28-2021, 08:51 AM
Grimoire-M

In short, because the game says so right now. Merging DWT and Bahamut is something I and a few other SMNs on this forum see as a necessary thing come 6.0 if SE wants to continue trimming buttons. Along that mould Deathflare and the Enkindles also are fitting targets for merging.

Brand of Purgatory is an AoE with a heavy hitting single target component while Fountain of Fire is purely single target. The numbers are tuned so that it’s always worth spamming both over Outburst or Ruin II irrespective of the number of targets. The intent is to simulate a short 1-2 Combo when you’re in Firebird Trance without cluttering your hotbars.
03-01-2021, 03:16 PM
Rongway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Brand of Purgatory is an AoE with a heavy hitting single target component while Fountain of Fire is purely single target. The numbers are tuned so that it’s always worth spamming both over Outburst or Ruin II irrespective of the number of targets. The intent is to simulate a short 1-2 Combo when you’re in Firebird Trance without cluttering your hotbars.

This could have been accomplished far more conveniently by having the 2 replace another single target button like Ruin II instead of Outburst.
03-02-2021, 03:05 AM
Grimoire-M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongway

This could have been accomplished far more conveniently by having the 2 replace another single target button like Ruin II instead of Outburst.

I presume it doesn’t because Ruin IV shares a button with it and SE didn’t want to code a priority system for which should replace it.
03-08-2021, 01:02 AM
darcstar62

This has a been an issue for a long time on SMN, unfortunately. There are several workarounds available, but most involve various levels of TOS violations. Depends on your risk tolerance, I guess.
03-08-2021, 04:38 PM
Rosenstrauch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luin

Also, Firebird changes your Ruin3 and Outburst, why cant Fountain of Fire grant Hellish Conduit, and that changes Fountain of Fire into Brand of Purgatory, without needing to change Outburst? Do most people put Outburst and Ruin3 in places easy to alternate between? This is smaller complaint than DWT/Deathflare though.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have Ruin III bound to 'R' and Outrage bound to 'Y'. So for Firebird Trance, the buttons are almost right next to each other.

They probably could do it the way you suggested, making it sort of like the Dragoon's Raiden Thrust. But I don't really mind the way it is now since it doesn't actually add any new buttons into the mix. Not like Deathflare, which really should be the same button as Enkindle Bahamut (which should be named Akh Morn, for that matter). I'm also partial to the idea of merging Dreadwyrm Trance and Summon Bahamut into a single cooldown, like Firebird Trance. That would open room for a third Trance, and my preference for that is Shiva due to Ysayle's actions in Heavensward, but I digress.
03-08-2021, 04:48 PM
Rongway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I don't know about anyone else, but I have Ruin III bound to 'R' and Outrage bound to 'Y'. So for Firebird Trance, the buttons are almost right next to each other.

It's great that this works out for you, but it could have just as easily not worked out for you.

The problem with this is that Firebird Trance, which is used regularly in single target combat, forces you to fit what is normally an AoE button into every other GCD of a single target rotation. You go 71 levels with no incentive to place the Outburst button in your single target action section, and then suddenly Outburst needs to be in your single target action section or your fingering becomes awkward.

I am all for having buttons auto-upgrade for things like Trance, but there are single target buttons available. Keep the Outburst button out of it.
03-09-2021, 11:36 AM
Rosenstrauch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongway

It's great that this works out for you, but it could have just as easily not worked out for you.

Maybe if I only had one finger on my left hand, sure. But I think hitting Outburst and Ruin III back to back would be the least of my worries if that was the case.
03-09-2021, 11:50 AM
Rongway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Maybe if I only had one finger on my left hand, sure. But I think hitting Outburst and Ruin III back to back would be the least of my worries if that was the case.

Your statement is absurd and ignores the valid reality that every other DD and tank job can have their AoE GCD actions on a separate bar from their single target GCD actions without being punished by finger gymnastics later, except maybe BLM, which has its own button issues that need to be addressed.
03-09-2021, 12:05 PM
Rosenstrauch

There's nothing absurd about it. WASD is used for moving your character, and I've rebound most keys around them to hit something on one of my three hotbars. The only way this wouldn't work out for me, again, is if I only had one finger on my left hand. I think I'd have to get one of those gaming mice if that were the case. Or learn how to use a controller.
03-09-2021, 03:14 PM
wereotter

Short answer, deathflare could in theory share the button with enkindle bahamut, but there's one thing that might be keeping them from merging the two. They don't share the same cooldown timer.

I'd have to look at the way the rotation works more closely to see if changing the timers would matter at all (probably it wouldn't) but deathflare has a 15 sec recast time while enkindle bahamut is 10 sec. If they shared a button, and you went straight into summoning bahamut after using deathflare, you'd start that mode with enkindle bahamut already on cooldown, which would nerf the summoner's DPS even if recast times were changed since they couldn't start the phase with an ahk mohrn.

This is the same reason you can't have dreadwurm trance on the same button as summon bahamut or firebird trance. The skill has a 55 second cooldown meaning that if they were on the same button, you'd have to wait 55 seconds after entering dreadwurm trance before you'd be able to summon bahamut.

The job definitely has a lot of button bloat, and there are a lot of ways it would be nice if they could consolidate buttons that can't be used when under other parts of your rotation... but there are reasons that at the current time they do need to be separate.
03-09-2021, 06:43 PM
Rongway

Quote:

Originally Posted by wereotter

This is the same reason you can't have dreadwurm trance on the same button as summon bahamut or firebird trance. The skill has a 55 second cooldown meaning that if they were on the same button, you'd have to wait 55 seconds after entering dreadwurm trance before you'd be able to summon bahamut.

Actions with different cooldowns can share a button, and an action that is hidden behind another due to state-based action replacement can continue to cool down independently of the action that replaces it. Differences in recast times between consolidated action buttons would be a non-issue. The conditions for Dreadwyrm Trance, Summon Bahamut, and Firebird trance are mutually exclusive, and these buttons could easily be made into one button while still maintaining separate cooldowns between Trance and Summon Bahamut.
03-11-2021, 07:24 AM
wereotter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongway

Actions with different cooldowns can share a button, and an action that is hidden behind another due to state-based action replacement can continue to cool down independently of the action that replaces it. Differences in recast times between consolidated action buttons would be a non-issue. The conditions for Dreadwyrm Trance, Summon Bahamut, and Firebird trance are mutually exclusive, and these buttons could easily be made into one button while still maintaining separate cooldowns between Trance and Summon Bahamut.

In theory they could, but I'm hard pressed to think of moves that share a button already that don't also share a cooldown. It might be a restriction of the code they're working with but I actually found the opposite to be true where I can use a move, switch jobs, and find that moves on that second job are on cooldown as soon as I changed (within a sanctuary)

I can't imagine they're intentionally keeping skills separated onto different buttons if they were able to combine them considering they already have firebird trance share a button with summon bahamut and enkindle phoenix and enkindle bahamut also share a button. If they could have made the dreadwurm trance buttons share with the others, they would have.
03-11-2021, 08:10 AM
Beddict

Quote:

Originally Posted by wereotter

In theory they could, but I'm hard pressed to think of moves that share a button already that don't also share a cooldown.

Geirskogul and Nastrond come to mind. Geirskogul is on a 30s recast, Nastrond is on a 10s recast, they share the same button, and Nastrond only becomes available during Life of the Dragon. You can use Nastrond at something like 5s left on LotD, exit LotD, immediately go back in to LotD with Geirskogul that just came off cooldown, and you'll find that Nastrond will be ready in about 5s. The cooldown of Geirskogul keeps ticking while LotD is active and the player is using Nastrond, and the cooldown of Nastrond keeps ticking when the player is out of LotD and using Geirskogul. SE should be able to consolidate Dreadwyrm Trance, Summon Bahamut, and Firebird Trance.
03-11-2021, 11:03 AM
wereotter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beddict

Geirskogul and Nastrond come to mind. Geirskogul is on a 30s recast, Nastrond is on a 10s recast, they share the same button, and Nastrond only becomes available during Life of the Dragon. You can use Nastrond at something like 5s left on LotD, exit LotD, immediately go back in to LotD with Geirskogul that just came off cooldown, and you'll find that Nastrond will be ready in about 5s. The cooldown of Geirskogul keeps ticking while LotD is active and the player is using Nastrond, and the cooldown of Nastrond keeps ticking when the player is out of LotD and using Geirskogul. SE should be able to consolidate Dreadwyrm Trance, Summon Bahamut, and Firebird Trance.

I hadn't considered that move, thank you! This does support the idea that they could potentially merge more buttons.
03-12-2021, 07:49 PM
Saefinn

Although it'd be better if it did it natively, but I guess /a/ workaround could be to create a macro:

/macroicon "Enkindle Bahamut"
/ac "Enkindle Bahamut" <t>
/ac "Deathflare" <t>

Using Macro Icon will display exactly as "Enkindle Bahamut" does, including the cooldown timer so you know when it's available again. With Deathflare you don't need to know when it's available as it'll be available when you pop DWT so it doesn't matter if it still showed Enkindle Bahamut.

If Enkindle Bahamut doesn't work, it should use Deathflare instead. Though I've not tested the exact macro above, but I'm pretty sure it should work, as macros usually skip any lines it can't execute and move to the next one.
03-19-2021, 02:30 AM
Gruntler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rongway

Your statement is absurd and ignores the valid reality that every other DD and tank job can have their AoE GCD actions on a separate bar from their single target GCD actions without being punished by finger gymnastics later, except maybe BLM, which has its own button issues that need to be addressed.

Other jobs don't tend to have free AoE damage in their single target rotation just sitting there doing work letting them just single target attack the fat target in a pack, ending the trash encounter faster, thereby doing more dps.