Request: AoE range indictator

What I'm proposing is something I dont forsee happening until 2.0, because of what it would mean with the mini map on the UI. If it could happen before, that'd be cool too.

XII had a system where if you began to cast a spell that would target multiple targets, it would create a visible ring on screen showing you where the spell is centered from and everything else that would be targeted and those that would fall outside of it.

I'd like to see something like this happen in XIV as well, so when an AoE based spell is being prepared and you select targets, you can see via mini map the range of the spell, which targets are going to be included and those it would miss, so you can readjust your target accordingly to hit as many as possible.

Also on that.. I'm assuming the reason why AoE's are limited to 8 targets is because of the party limitation as it is. Will this ever change, will be able to hit a dozen or more targets with an AoE? Or make it so the higher tier AoE you use, the more targets it effects. So Fire would hit 6, Fira 8, Firaga 10, etc I find it funny how you can be in a room of mobs, nuke all of them down, but one mob who was in the middle of the group is never touched at all.

Yes...that way I can Dragonfire Dive everything >)

I think the UI designer working in 2.0 is the same guy that did the one from FF12 so hopefully we have something similar coming.

I would like this, and I think the 8 mob limit for AoEs is 1.xx limitations, I see no need for it and come 2.0 it should be removed if they intend for some really good endgame.

I'd rather see the AOE range within the mobs itself instead of being on the mini map.

I agree with the dislike of being limited to 8 mobs at once. I think after 9 or more it should just seriously drop the divided damage. As for the indicator on the screen, I couldn't be more against it. Imagine you becoming this awesome mage, burnin down villages or saving the world one pile of baddies at a time.... but you're so unfamiliar with the mechanics of your spells that you have no idea how to use them. No thanks.

Glad to see others feel about the range of magic as I do...but that last comment about not liking the indicator because someone would grow to not understand how the magic works, that..I dont understand.

AoEs are simple to understand, what this would do is all you to see the optimal positioning you need to be, to cast your next spell when attempting to cover the best range possible.

If you have 3 mobs around each other, you select one, there's a chance that even though in your perspective it could hit all three, it'll only hit one. You select a different one, it has the chance of striking down two, or if you select the last it has the best possability of hitting all 3 at once, utalizing positioning and strategy rather than just blindly shooting off spells and wasting mp.

They want melee classes to rely on positioning when using skills, I dont see why mages are any different.

Hell, there could become a day when, if they can really do well on the landscape and really signifiy the difference between rock, grass, sand, snow, etc that a Geomancer class would benefit from such ideas, moving from one spot to another to benefit from the type of ground they are touching, be it a puddle, a patch of rock, sand, etc.

And having it on the screen as a visual guide is good too, as Illriginalized said. Thats how XII did it anyways. It may be easier to use as well, if you have a cluster of mobs together and you're trying to nuke them all down at the same time, if you put your spell on one mob, it may not hit the one all the way on the outer edge of the rest of them. You wont know that until you've casted. But, with visual guide, you can see the one on the end isnt effected by the range, so you adjust as necassary and blamo. Death to all.

If I remember correctly they have expressed the want to add something like this. but you know the drill at this point.

If you can cast a spell 100 or 1000 or 5000 times and still not be good enough at using it to "eyeball" it then I feel bad. Adding an indicator would make an already simplistic game even simpler.... This is why I feel it is sooooo the wrong direction to go. You wouldn't even need to learn your spells effective area, it would just show it to you. Someone who just got firaga is going to be just as good at using it as someone who has cast it so many times. That is what is wrong with an indicator.

I would love to see this. Anything to help with AoE range is a + in my book.

I posted this exact thread the other day.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

If you can cast a spell 100 or 1000 or 5000 times and still not be good enough at using it to "eyeball" it then I feel bad. Adding an indicator would make an already simplistic game even simpler.... This is why I feel it is sooooo the wrong direction to go. You wouldn't even need to learn your spells effective area, it would just show it to you. Someone who just got firaga is going to be just as good at using it as someone who has cast it so many times. That is what is wrong with an indicator.

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I understand your point, I really do. Its basically the same as what happens when a person is pushed from lvl 1 to 40 in a couple of days through powerleveling and then they're made to try and figure out what they should've learned in those first 40 levels, in the next 10 to cap. Most people look for an easy out and then they get bored, whine and eventually leave. Though on the same matter, I would, in your own point of interest I believe, like to see them redefine how AoEs function as a whole. As I mentioned in the original post, to make different tiered AoE based on the spell being cast. If Flare and Blizzaga can be immediate proximity and then Fire, Fira and Firaga have a open range, there is no reason I can think of why they couldnt make it so each tier increases the overall range. Eventually the higher the tier you go, where the spell is cast wont matter, it's going to cover everything. But knowing where to start that chain off is important and that can be made optimal by knowing the actual range of the spell themselves, via this method. I'd even be happy for it to be a toggle option, so people who feel like the game is becoming too simple for them can turn it off and pretend its never there. In which case, by making each AoE tier ranged by its potency, there's your new level of difficulty. You cant just blast off all 8 mobs at once with a Fire and continue running the combo, you need to know where to start it for maximum efficency till the combo is concluded and with the indicator feature turned off, you have to be able to eyeball all the mobs on the screen at once to know where to best start your combo off. Then both sides are happy, the ones who want it to be harder than it is and those who dont want to overthink it and enjoy the game, for being a game.

Oh and I apologize Bobbygunz, I didnt realize that. I would've just responded to your own thread to minimize unnecassary duplicate threads then. Sorry~

Indicators for AoE now? Man you guys really do like SE holding your hand while you play. Learn your jobs limitations. Takes about 5 minutes.

It might be worthwhile to note:

If you are in a position where you need to see the AOE range (to avoid hitting something you don't want to hit), you should probably avoid AOE all together ^.^;

The range might be fine when you start casting, but thanks to mob movements, popping, and lag, that may change by the time it hits.

So far, as a WHM/BLM and THM who solos a lot, I've never ever been put into a position where I needed to worry about AOE range. If I was worried, I would use a non-AOE skill (plenty of those).

Yes, there may be a specific situation:
If I knew the exact range I could use Fira and increase my damage to this fire-weak mob rather than use Thunder, but I'm concerned that other Goat that is 1 yalm away might get hit and then beat me up.

If this is the case, you could:

-- Go fight something else that has nothing in range or is weak to thunder
-- Pull the mob away from other creatures to a safe point and then use Fira
-- Keep using thunder till the big Goat wanders off then use Fira


Lots of options ^.^b

Can anyone give me a good reason how this would possibly hurt the game, in a whole, if something was to be used as an optional toggle on and off range indicator. Something that is real and that I've overlooked, that by doing so could in some way inadvertidly effect the game's mechanics.

And no, personal grievence doesnt count. Its an opinion, a feeling, doesnt actually hold influence over how the game is played. It may differ from how YOU want to play, but it wouldn't actually affect the experience itself for YOU if you didnt allow it.

Anyone? Also..bumpity bump, I refuse to let this thread get buried!

Time invested by development to implement a feature that is not needed.
There is a long list of things needed.

I think on the whole it would be better if focus was based on addressing the needed items first. To distract from that for this would hurt the game.

Eventually there may be a 3rd party 'windower' thing that you can install that can help you with this.

Fair enough, then all I ask is that the reps forward it to the appropriate devs for battle systems, they look into what resources and time would be needed to develop and implment it, and if its something that can be done and would simply need to wait until later or simply cannot be done or shouldn't be done for the direction they want the game to go, so be it.

Overall, the mechanic wouldn't hurt anyone, it could put something else behind it in priority I agree and yes, there are other more pressing issues to be dealt with first. Its not about se 'holding our hands', I can play on my blm just fine without it, I simply think of it as a novelty effect that could become useful in the long run, but it wont break my heart if it isnt brought aboard. And if they do allow third parties to play an active role in the game after 2.0 launches and this is one of the features that can be brought on, also fine.

1) Originally Posted by Peptaru
If you can cast a spell 100 or 1000 or 5000 times and still not be good enough at using it to "eyeball" it then I feel bad. Adding an indicator would make an already simplistic game even simpler.... This is why I feel it is sooooo the wrong direction to go. You wouldn't even need to learn your spells effective area, it would just show it to you. Someone who just got firaga is going to be just as good at using it as someone who has cast it so many times. That is what is wrong with an indicator.

2)

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Originally Posted by Genome

Indicators for AoE now? Man you guys really do like SE holding your hand while you play. Learn your jobs limitations. Takes about 5 minutes.

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Really guys? I'm sorry, but this is an extremely helpful and common feature among MMOs. Sometimes even if you "know" your job you may misjudge distances due to terrain or whatever and miss one person with a buff/heal/etc.

Would it really ruin your enjoyment of gaming so severely if this was implemented? Could it possibly be worth having to endure seeing such an indicator knowing that other people benefit from it?

This could very easily even be a toggleable type feature. That way, people like you two could turn it off and feel superior.

Its not about feeling superior. Its about preserving at least the tiny fragment of skill that the game requires. Even easier easy mode.... feels like FFXIII-2. If you can't find the ability to learn the range of your spells well enough to feel comfortable with them..... then take up a melee job.

OMG!! Petition for AoE indicator on steel cyclone!!!

lol..ya'll are so silly. You can't come up with an actual reason this would hurt the game, through its use, other than your own pride so you gotta go with making ridiculous remarks instead. Silly boys.

This is a terrible idea... aggro indicator.. mob levels.. AOE indicator!? This game gets eaiser everyday!

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Originally Posted by Morticous

This is a terrible idea... aggro indicator.. mob levels.. AOE indicator!? This game gets eaiser everyday!

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And you can honestly tell me you dont use either of the former two? You dont like to see if you're flashing red, so you know whether to pick up hate gain or back off for better management. Or you dont like to see the level of what you're about to walk up into, so whether or not you need to scoot away before your face gets eaten off by a level 72 aggressive monster that just happens to be near the level 30 monsters you were killing a moment ago? Examples examples, but still.

Ohhhh its one of those guys, "I'll dismiss everything you say because I don't agree with it, even if others think they're 'valid' points I don't, so nya nya?" at least you're keeping a calm tone, but you can't dismiss everything said as invalid because you don't agree with it.

I use some of them because they are there and toggling a critical funcion that the rest of the world uses is not really an option but if it was up to me... the aggro thing around mob level would be gone.. mob level would be gone.. mob level color gone.. aggro indicator gone.. your idea gone.. along with any other hand holding functionality.. you can learn these things.. there is no need to be handed every answer... everyone got along in ffxi just fine without ALL of it. After dieing once or twice nobody needed to be told goblins aggro.... people managed hate especialy after stealing it and dying. People recognized the area they where in and that the mobs levels were likly very high.... you didnt need to be a brain surgeon to figure this stuff out.

Distance to target and AoE indicators would be infinitely helpful. For those who don't want to use them, put it on /toggle. Let the rest of us enjoy the convenience.

Information display is a good thing. Knowing the range of an AoE or distance to target doesn't make any combat inherently easier, it just allows people to more accurately use their skills. Arguably, it allows people to play more skillfully as they can focus less on estimating distance/AoE range and more on using their skills properly in combat.

Just because people got on without it before doesn't mean we shouldn't have it now. Have you ever heard of innovation?

First Off: Some Definitions

The more 'aids' there are, the less 'skill' you will need. If there is somethign to tell you:

-- The range.. you will no longer have to use your own judgement, just the ability to read 'in range'
-- The AOE... you will no longer have to use your own judgement or take a chance..just look at the indicators
-- The Enimity... you will no longer have to judge based on experience or other clues that it is safe to keep attacking or not. Just look at the flashing bar.

The more 'aids' there are, the 'simpler' things become. That is the purpose of aids. Not to enable something that was not possible before, but to make it so ascertaining or accomplishing something is easier than before.



Now: The Effect
If there are a lot of 'aids', the argument can be made that the world is made more open to people who need the aids. In other words, lack of aids would drive away people who would need it. Some might argue they wish to restrict the world to people who do not need the aids. Others would argue they do not want the world restricted from them because they can't get the aids they need.

Another argument is that the more 'aids' there are, the less opportunities for personal skills to be used and made more apparent. Yes, there is an argument that one could disable all the aids, but if there is no benefit from it the reality is that it most likely will not be used. Example: Why drive 'manual' instead of 'automatic' if behaviour/performance/everything will be 100% the same.

A side-effect of this argument is that some people will want to keep the world more 'exclusive'. 'Weed' out those who do not have the 'skillz' to play without aids.

And finally, the last argument (that I can come up with) is that by spending time implementing more aids, the limited resources are not being used to add more content or fixes. Additionally, by adding more 'aids' they run the risk of adding more 'bugs'. So the tradeoff has to be questioned and answered.


Side note on enmity bar
At present, as far as I can tell, the ONLY way to judge enmity is by the bar. In Vana'diel, you could judge enmity by the way the creature would 'twitch' and sort of look like it was comming to you for a moment... a sign that you should back off (if you weren't the tank). We do not seem to get that here, so we have no choice but to look at that bar (or wait till we get hit then say: Yup, okey, I got hate now.....)


Now for me
I am not in favour of making things simpler. But I am understanding of those who, for whatever reason, may need things to be made simpler. Not everyone is good at visual cues or spatial geometry. Not everyone has a good gut feeling. Some people just plain have disabilities or inabilities to properly see things. Whatever the reason, I can fully understand people's needs for 'aids' (Let's keep in mind that this is supposed to be fun, and not real war here...)

That being said, I also appreciate 'challenges'. I can also accept that it is hard to make this world both 'easy' and 'challenging' at the same time, yet make all content freely available to everyone. Something has to give.

My understanding is that FFXIV is supposed to be a more 'challenging' world than other places out there... most of which are easy (and some downright super casual easy). If this is the case, I would like to encourage this world to stay on the challenging side, as there are a plethora of non-challenging-easy-mode-worlds out there already, and few challenging ones left to enjoy.


One final suggestion
For those who truly want the best of both worlds, it is possible to enable an /easymode option to turn on all aids, etc. But I think this should have limited use (only from Inn/House), and a penalty (-10% xp, -10% to all stats, can not equip double-melded+ equipment). This would keep it available for those who need aids, but still reward those who do not.




And one final final note (promise):
As for AoE Range Indicators.. as mentioned above... Although I can appreciate its usefulness to some people, I still submit that the limited resources of SE be put towards something that alot of people would benefit from (rather than just a few).


Thank you, and sorry for the long post.

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Originally Posted by Akujin

Can anyone give me a good reason how this would possibly hurt the game, in a whole, if something was to be used as an optional toggle on and off range indicator. Something that is real and that I've overlooked, that by doing so could in some way inadvertidly effect the game's mechanics.

And no, personal grievence doesnt count. Its an opinion, a feeling, doesnt actually hold influence over how the game is played. It may differ from how YOU want to play, but it wouldn't actually affect the experience itself for YOU if you didnt allow it.

Anyone? Also..bumpity bump, I refuse to let this thread get buried!

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How does this hurt the game? It makes for bad players. Same as PLing someone to 50 in a week. I don't want a community full of noobs who don't know how to play their jobs or rely on 3rd party programs to do everything for them. Have you ever tried a pickup party in XIV? It's 100x worse than any pickup party I had in XI (mind you I quit before abyssea). All of these indicators don't make people better, they just make it easier to watch TV while you play or knit or whatever people do instead of pay attention and make the experience of partying better for everyone involved.

Adding a toggle won't do anything except make lazy players click a box. By the time 2.0 comes out with all these indicators we're going to need 3rd party programs just to REMOVE all of this nonsense and be able to see the mobs we're trying to kill.

http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...2/yorsajh1.jpg

NO THANKS!

Rather than play with the quotes..

1. Peptaru: I'm not dismissing anyone, I'm challanging you. You have an opinion, as do I. I have valid reasons for wanting mine to be expressed and reviewed, as do you. If you can't handle someone having different opinions and challanging Your opposition, then dont go into a thread as a nay sayer, it'll make life easier for you.

2. Asiaine: I liked your post, because you took quite a bit of considerable time and thought putting that one together. While it doesnt really pull for my idea, its giving the freedom of choice over to everyone, use it or dont and as you mentioned in your own thing about how emnity worked in XI. There is a difference, the hate does not work the same way in XI that it does in XIV, I've seen it on both sides, as tank and back line caster. I'd rather like to see a party deal with something, lets say..Garuda when it comes out with NO aggro bars. No way to really tell..did I just get aggro..am I about to die? Oh yes..I'm dead, guess so! Lets see that, then go back to that discussion.

3. Genome: What the holy hell is that screenshot from? It hurt my eyes.. as for making people lazy.. XI WAS lazy. There was NO skill needed. It was macro played, gear swaps was possibly the only thing you needed to know. Which piece made which attack more optimal and even then, macro it in. I used to fall asleep in parties on my war in parties in XI because, like I said, it was all macro played. Alternate three different macros, thats it. Now..how things have changed with Abyssea? I dont know, cant say, left long before WotG came to conclusion. And as for random pick up parties sucking, that can come from a couple of things, inexperience playing the game for a length of time, sometimes when you group with the same people for repeated situations, namely your LS, you begin to understand 'read' your LS mates behaviour before they do something, you can anticipate their actions, because of the situation you've been in before. Its not necassarily having to do with indicators, flashing lights or what have you. And sometimes, it does, I'm not saying that doesnt exist. I will garentee people who buy entire characters off RMT sites cant hold their own as you or I can in the same situation.

But again..I ask, that it be looked at, reviewed and if it can be done, great, if not or very low priority, then fine. But there's people on both sides of the fence, those who would like it, see the benefit and those who dont like it and say it'll damage the game. But my money is just as good as yours, so I say make it a toggle and let everyone be happy :)

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

First Off: Some Definitions

The more 'aids' there are, the less 'skill' you will need. If there is somethign to tell you:

-- The range.. you will no longer have to use your own judgement, just the ability to read 'in range'
-- The AOE... you will no longer have to use your own judgement or take a chance..just look at the indicators
-- The Enimity... you will no longer have to judge based on experience or other clues that it is safe to keep attacking or not. Just look at the flashing bar.

The more 'aids' there are, the 'simpler' things become. That is the purpose of aids. Not to enable something that was not possible before, but to make it so ascertaining or accomplishing something is easier than before.

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1. Range: You don't use your own judgement, it's just guesswork. You hit the skill and if you're in range it goes off, if not you get an error, move closer and try again. No real skill involved there, just guesswork.

2. AoE: Same as above, except if you're not in range it simply doesn't hit them. No skill involved in guesswork.

3. Enmity: Arguably, knowing what the hate situation is will allow a player to push the limits harder than before when they were simply guessing. Instead of wondering if they're close to pulling hate or not, they know and in knowing they can use that information to play more skillfully.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Now: The Effect
If there are a lot of 'aids', the argument can be made that the world is made more open to people who need the aids. In other words, lack of aids would drive away people who would need it. Some might argue they wish to restrict the world to people who do not need the aids. Others would argue they do not want the world restricted from them because they can't get the aids they need.

Another argument is that the more 'aids' there are, the less opportunities for personal skills to be used and made more apparent. Yes, there is an argument that one could disable all the aids, but if there is no benefit from it the reality is that it most likely will not be used. Example: Why drive 'manual' instead of 'automatic' if behaviour/performance/everything will be 100% the same.

A side-effect of this argument is that some people will want to keep the world more 'exclusive'. 'Weed' out those who do not have the 'skillz' to play without aids.

And finally, the last argument (that I can come up with) is that by spending time implementing more aids, the limited resources are not being used to add more content or fixes. Additionally, by adding more 'aids' they run the risk of adding more 'bugs'. So the tradeoff has to be questioned and answered.

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Even with the aid of various information displays, personal skill is still needed. It doesn't matter how much information you know if you don't know how to use it to your advantage. If you can't do anything with that information, you may as well not even have it. You need to know what you're doing to properly utilize the information that you are given.

Simply knowing the AoE range doesn't help you much if you don't pay attention or know the limitations of certain skills. Also some lesser known bits of info, like AoEs only hit up to 8 things at a time, are not made apparent and must still be learned anyway. The best way to utilize certain AoE skills despite their range is another personal hurdle that some must overcome. Simply knowing where it will hit is only half the issue.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Side note on enmity bar
At present, as far as I can tell, the ONLY way to judge enmity is by the bar. In Vana'diel, you could judge enmity by the way the creature would 'twitch' and sort of look like it was comming to you for a moment... a sign that you should back off (if you weren't the tank). We do not seem to get that here, so we have no choice but to look at that bar (or wait till we get hit then say: Yup, okey, I got hate now.....)

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Exactly, also again if a player doesn't know what to do with the information then it is useless. The enmity bar is really only useful if people know how to manage their enmity properly. Seeing red on the bar doesn't help you much if you don't know how to shed hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Now for me
I am not in favour of making things simpler. But I am understanding of those who, for whatever reason, may need things to be made simpler. Not everyone is good at visual cues or spatial geometry. Not everyone has a good gut feeling. Some people just plain have disabilities or inabilities to properly see things. Whatever the reason, I can fully understand people's needs for 'aids' (Let's keep in mind that this is supposed to be fun, and not real war here...)

That being said, I also appreciate 'challenges'. I can also accept that it is hard to make this world both 'easy' and 'challenging' at the same time, yet make all content freely available to everyone. Something has to give.

My understanding is that FFXIV is supposed to be a more 'challenging' world than other places out there... most of which are easy (and some downright super casual easy). If this is the case, I would like to encourage this world to stay on the challenging side, as there are a plethora of non-challenging-easy-mode-worlds out there already, and few challenging ones left to enjoy.

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Actually FFXIV is still kind of aimed at a casual audience, more casual than FFXI at least. Things can still be challenging even with information displayed. Knowing something only does so much for you and the rest is up to personal skill/judgement. These things don't make combat inherently easier, they just display information which you must then use yourself. Figuring out the best way to use that information is what keeps it challenging.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

One final suggestion
For those who truly want the best of both worlds, it is possible to enable an /easymode option to turn on all aids, etc. But I think this should have limited use (only from Inn/House), and a penalty (-10% xp, -10% to all stats, can not equip double-melded+ equipment). This would keep it available for those who need aids, but still reward those who do not.

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That's an awful idea, I'm sorry. Punishing people for using an information display? No, I would not stand for something like that. Those who don't "need" them can be rewarded with a personal sense of superiority or something, don't punish people for using a feature in a game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

And one final final note (promise):
As for AoE Range Indicators.. as mentioned above... Although I can appreciate its usefulness to some people, I still submit that the limited resources of SE be put towards something that alot of people would benefit from (rather than just a few).


Thank you, and sorry for the long post.

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Putting an information display in doesn't take up a huge amount of resources. Compared to creating dungeons, quests, gear, etc... it's a pretty small thing. It requires a little testing but all it does is display information, not a lot can go wrong with that compared to other things.

Even if they don't make an indicator maybe someone will be able to make a UI Add-on that will be able to do about the same thing.

In xi I played corsair a lot. Learning just where to stand while casting rolls to hit the party members you wanted to hit and missed the ones you wanted to miss was one of the ways you became a good corsair. Being able to hit both your healer and your paladin with a refresh roll whilst not overriding the att or acc rolls on your mellees took skillfull placement. Needing to be skilled in your job is a good thing, I'd rather not have range indicators.

i am all about options and penalties, so if aids are implemented. you got to have the option to turn it off, and if you need it you should have some penalties. Since skilled players should always be the better players

Even if there wasn't an indicator, but a way to target AoE precisely in center of mob group rather than, for example, AoE spells which "deal damage to enemy and enemies surrounding it". It's pretty impractical, because you might have two mobs far away from each other such that AoE wont hit both if you target one of the mobs alone, however, they aren't so far away that if you aimed AoE at midpoint between them, it would actually hit both.

So it's more annoying in that regard than anything else.

Urgh, no, please, no.
THis game is rated for players of the age 12+, why do we need mechanics for infants?
There is 'convenience' and there is 'making the game so easy that a baby could play it'.
It takes 3 to 4 casts/shots to learn of your AoE range / maximum range on Archer (needed for skills).
Remembering it is not a hard thing to do. I think an indicator for this is a horrible idea.