Undersized Party is Unhealthy for New Players & Game Longevity

When selecting a duty, the game allows players to toggle an "undersized party" option that unsyncs player's character and item levels.

This alone isn't an issue; however, players can still obtain loot during these unsynced duties--leading to a host of problems.

Most critically, this function effectively kills all old content. Given that non-current gear is largely useless to most, the largest incentive to running old content is for mounts & glamour. However, the ability to obtain this loot while unsynced trivializes the content such that it can be completed with far fewer players than normal, and with many mechanics ignored.

Not only does this trivialize gear/mounts that veteran players once worked hard for, but it makes it extremely difficult to experience older content as it was on release. Very, very few people want to run old content synced; and why would they? They can get everything they need far easier by toggling undersized party.

FF14 is hard enough to get new players into, with it's endless Main Scenario quests. I now have numerous friends who burn out during leveling because it's impossible for them to experience difficult content outside of max-level, end game duties; no one is seriously running any of the old content synced.

Until level 80, this game is barren for those seeking a challenge.

Please, consider disabling loot for undersized parties. This increased exclusivity of said loot will help revive old content, as well as ensure veteran players can continue to feel proud of the work they put in for their loot without having it trivialized by Level 80s two-manning a Level 60 Extreme in under two minutes.

"Most critically, this function effectively kills all old content."

No it doesn't.
All regular old content with the exception of Coils is well populated thanks to the daily roulettes, and Coils is excluded due to it's difficulty, which likely isn't going to change any time soon.

Only Extremes and Savage aren't designed to remain a challenge past their expansion cycle. Not only does undersizing reduce challenge, but job redesign alone often reduces the difficulty of them. This is why simply running ARR EX trials synced with minimum ilvl was not a valid representation of their difficulty and prompted them to release Unreal Trials.
Pre-80 is not designed to be a challenge, and in about 9 months time, it'll be pre-90.

If you really want to run this content as it was... you're going to need a time machine, because your jobs at level 50 now aren't as they were at level 50 5 years ago. Undersized or not.

"Until level 80, this game is barren for those seeking a challenge."

Then get to level 80. Make that your challenge.
Otherwise get a group together to do them synced at minimum ilvl. Its not difficult, and people DO want to do it, just as you are asking for it right now, others want to experience this content synced as well.
Join an FC, use Party Finder. It takes some pre-organisation, but so does current end-game Extreme and Savage.
If you can't tolerate this recruitment process now, then you wont be able to manage at level 80 either.

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Originally Posted by trentxw123

FF14 is hard enough to get new players into, with it's endless Main Scenario quests. I now have numerous friends who burn out during leveling because it's impossible for them to experience difficult content outside of max-level, end game duties; no one is seriously running any of the old content synced.

Until level 80, this game is barren for those seeking a challenge.

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I mean...
You could actually min ilvl synch old extreme/savage fights.
Heck, this expac I was in a synched Suzaku EX farm party.
If you wanna run that kinda content talk to your FC and make parties on the PF.

But the game isn't barren of challenging content. You're just not gonna find any going through the story as the game puts new players in catch-up mode.
Here are examples of pre-cap challenging content off the top of my head:
-- Deep dungeons
-- PVP
-- pick up BLU and do the masked carnival
-- All those non-combat Gold Saucer activities like Chocobo racing, lord of verminion, triple triad, etc.
-- Fill out your fishing log.
-- Jumping puzzles.
-- play the market board
-- go after those achievements. Many are just grind, but some are quite the challenge.
-- Or make your own challenge, like going through Aurum Vale without eating a fruit, or have a night where the FC does dungeons without their job stones.

"No it doesn't. All regular old content with the exception of Coils is well populated thanks to the daily roulettes, and Coils is excluded due to it's difficulty, which likely isn't going to change any time soon."

That's true! Duty Roulette absolutely keeps the Normal versions of most old content in rotation, yes. I should've been clearer, there; that can probably be re-worded to "Most critically, this function effectively kills most high-end old content."

"Not only does undersizing reduce challenge, but job redesign alone often reduces the difficulty of them."

While it's true that job redesign does impact the difficulty of old Extremes/Savages, I think it's a bit disingenuous to suppose that the impact is at all equatable to undersized party. If I'm able to get an 8-man together to run Zurvan synced, the run feels quite comparable to release. I'm not asking for a carbon-copy of a Day 1 experience; I just want this content to live outside of FCs. It'd be nice (and I think healthier for the game) were this content to be more friendly to Party Finder. Unfortunately, at the moment, a Party Finder for synced old high-end content is often pretty fruitless; there's little incentive to run this content synced when loot can be gained via undersized party, and few seem to be interested in synced runs for the heck of it.

"Then get to level 80. Make that your challenge."

I don't think this is healthy for the game. The idea that the mindless grind of getting to 80 is at all a comparable challenge to successfully navigating an Extreme/Savage duty seems pretty silly. Nor does it seem a very good selling point to new players to tell them that, if they want to experience High-End content, they have to reach the current end-game.

"Join an FC, use Party Finder. It takes some pre-organisation, but so does current end-game Extreme and Savage."

I've had very little success putting together groups for this content using PF; if that were a more realistic option, I'd be more than satisfied. It's certainly not comparable to organizing a group for current High-End content; there are a dozen Seat of Sacrifice EXs alone at any given time. Perhaps there are other FCs that are more friendly to running older content synced, that's fair; though I feel like it'd still be better to have this content better incentivized writ-large (and thus more accessible via PF)

I think it would be more than sufficient if mounts, materials and minions would be removed from the loottables during undersized runs, at least allow players to farm for glamour (armor/weapons).

I think I'd be happy if they excluded just mounts from the undersize loot table, provided they increased the drop rate on them to something like 50%.
Totems of course could still be farmed from them unsynced, and getting 100 runs of those is still a hell of a grind, but I could see a live mount drop being a good incentive to run it at level.

However: "While it's true that job redesign does impact the difficulty of old Extremes/Savages, I think it's a bit disingenuous to suppose that the impact is at all equatable to undersized party."

Not equatable, but still significant. Through job redesign, jobs have become more weighted towards higher levels, which has resulted in their lower level skills being buffed to counteract that loss of early potency. This results in jobs that are far easier to play at level 50 now than they were when that was current content. Then there's jobs such as AST and DNC which didn't even exist back in ARR, and their dps buffs can have a significant impact.
RDM and DNC already break the balance of most lower level dungeons due to their insanely strong AoE damage.

"I don't think this is healthy for the game. The idea that the mindless grind of getting to 80 is at all a comparable challenge to successfully navigating an Extreme/Savage duty seems pretty silly. Nor does it seem a very good selling point to new players to tell them that, if they want to experience High-End content, they have to reach the current end-game."

This IS the game. FFXIV is a story based MMO, it is ultimately still a Final Fantasy game, which is a JRPG.
This isn't WOW, where you're expected to boost to endgame in a day and then spend 95% of the game farming keys.
If you can't make it to level 80, the game isn't for you, because you'll just have to do it all again from 80 to 90, and then 90 to 100.

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Originally Posted by trentxw123

Until level 80, this game is barren for those seeking a challenge.

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If you want a challenge at level 80, you need to either do Week 1/Minimum Item Level Savage, or do Ultimate. Even the 70 Ultimates are still challenging, so you can throw those in there, too.

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ensure veteran players can continue to feel proud of the work they put in for their loot without having it trivialized by Level 80s two-manning a Level 60 Extreme in under two minutes

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This is just my opinion, but there’s not too much achievement stock in Extreme primal mounts anymore. Not only do they get extremely easy just as an expansion progresses, most of them are not all that hard anymore at release for an experienced player. They stopped being hard in HW with Thordan, Sephirot, and to a lesser extent Nidhogg. And all three of those were easily trucked by a party of good level 60s by the end of the expansion (sad to see—though Thordan and Sephirot could still screw over a party that didn’t pay attention to mechanics).

My opinion on what is considered a “good achievement” are things like Week 1/Week 2 Savage clears (when you are doing the content at its hardest because you have nothing better than crafted gear) and clearing the Ultimate fights—either before or after they were relevant because they are still challenging well after their period of relevancy has passed thanks to the sync and how most are a mechanic check/endurance test. I put my stock in achievements like those versus an Extreme primal because most nowadays are not that challenging on release to a seasoned/experienced player that routinely does high-end content. But, that’s just my opinion.

The only thing that I think should have been removed from undersized runs were the Second Coil Savage titles because those actually meant something back in the day. Speaking as someone who did them undersized in a full party of DPS in HW just for fun, I can’t really look at the titles without feeling as if I didn’t earn them. Which, to be fair, I didn’t. Ultimate titles, weapons and their “prestige” are preserved simply because they are kept synced, and cannot be rofl-stomped regardless of when you do them. So long as those fights remain that way, I am fairly content.

Please, no.
I don't want to spend hours waiting in DF for some low level dungeon just to get one piece of glamour that I want, and then not even get it because another party member outrolled me or it didn't drop.

If you want to spend days and weeks farming old glamour and mounts synced - then do it. Queue in DF or make a synched PF for some trial that you want to do.
The game doesn't force you to use unsynched feature at any point, this is only your choice.
New players most likely don't know about this feature and will use DF anyway.

I'm all for being able to experience older fights as they should be but we should still have a choice of whether we want to go synched or not.

As a returning player who's just completed MSQ (brand new account - started from scratch as haven't played since HW came out) I have to disagree. I've had no issues running any content with DF - even some of the older "end-game" content. (i.e. ARR/HW alliance raids and the like) - if the dungeon/raid can be done by roulettes then you will always get players doing it, if you're looking for specific content then queue explicitly for that content (granted, yeah you may have to wait longer for a party but that's just part and parcel of wanting to run synched old content).

If you're wanting to grind a dungeon/trial/raid with a group over and over for glams/mount/minions it is your choice (and of course there's also the risk that the party gets bored and disband before you get what you want, or another member rolls on the item you want and gets it) and you will have to use Party Finder/FC group but removing the loot options for under-levelled parties won't help suddenly increase the amount of players looking to do it. It's old content and the loot/mounts/minions from it just doesn't hold the prestige/recognition it used to. It's the same with most MMO's. Is it a shame? Maybe, but it's the nature of the genre - you can't have new content/game changes without old content losing something in the process.

Personally I like having the option to go solo some older content at my leisure to grab some loot/mounts/minions, does it detract/stop from me running that content synchronized in DF or when helping out an FC member? Nope - I'll still happily do that too. Do I feel that obtaining X mount because I under-leveled/solo'd the ARR EX Dungeon/Trial to get it makes me as good as or better than the veterans who got it years ago? Nope. Does anyone really care I got that mount and how I got it? I highly doubt it.

There's enough "prestige" things people can brag about as is, no need to make more of em out of old content.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Pre-80 is not designed to be a challenge, and in about 9 months time, it'll be pre-90.

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I know it's true, but that's laughable. Smh
Players are expected to slog through a mediocre battle system that doesn't challenge them in the slightest and a few hundred hours later are expected to 'git gud', since standing still and mindlessly DPSing doesn't cut it anymore. And then there is the boredom of even getting there in the first place that's only alleviated by the story (if you are into the narrative). How is that good design?

I'd propose SE expands the trust system so solo players can see the MSQ stress-free but you only get items through finishing the quests and if you want more like dungeon drops etc you go through it with a real party. Have adjustable difficulty settings where the higher the setting the better the rewards.

I for one like having at least the option to go (try) and farm the Arhat and Skallic gearsets (or any other obscure glamour-pieces i'm looking for specifically, like the Berserker Boots for their slightly different texture than the craftable ones) without a 45-minute wait time AND THEN fail to get it due to it not appearing or losing the roll-off, if it's all the same to you.