Basically, the Ascians goal was to join the 13 shards into the Source to make it whole again, but, as it has been said, the 13th shard was consumed by Darkness and turned into the Void and could no longer be used for The Rejoining. The question is, if they had succeeded in getting all other 12 shards rejoined to the Source, would it be enough? After all, it would be a world that is 93% (rounded up) complete.
Is It Even Still Possible (The Rejoining)
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01-14-2021, 02:07 AMStyrmwydaIs It Even Still Possible (The Rejoining)
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01-14-2021, 02:31 AMRenewalXVII
The Ascians certainly didn't give up after the Thirteenth was consumed, so they definitely believed it was possible (whether that was a rational belief or not given their tempering is up in the air of course). The ShB patch cycle has done a lot of building toward a foundation for reclaiming the Thirteenth as well.
There was also the out-of-story pre-ShB marketing from the Fanfests about the Eighth and Final Calamity, so the idea is out there that the Ascians only needed a certain number of Rejoinings to awaken Zodiark, though of course that line hasn't been followed up in the story as far as I'm aware. -
01-14-2021, 03:46 PMMoofiaBossVal
I think that the Ascians could have found a way to eventually fix the Void.
The real question is - after all 13 shards had been rejoined to the Source - would Zodiark have been able to actually resurrect the Ancient Amaurotines who sacrificed themselves for him? The Convocation were tempered, and according to one interpretation of the pink crystal "this power feels so right", they may have been tempered immediately upon summoning him. Aside from Hydaelyn and Phoenix, almost every Primal we've come across is motivated towards self preservation first, and the safety of their people second. It could be that Zodiark just told the Convocation what they wanted to hear. I have no doubt that a being as powerful as a 14/14 Zodiark fueled by thousands of Ancient 14/14 souls would be capable of creating beings in the likeness of the Ancients, but would it actually be them? We haven't seen any examples of true, "yes really" legit resurrection of the Soul in FFXIV.
Maybe it might be like a Fullmetal Alchemist thing, were once Zodiark is defeated, all of the souls he contained may finally go to Heaven/return to the Lifestream. Perhaps they might reincarnate one day. But I find it hard to believe that Emet and Elidibus would have ever actually gotten their friends back for real. -
01-14-2021, 05:27 PMLusavariAn interesting point and I would support your point by pointing at Lakshmi. When Lakshmi resurrected the daughter of the leader of the Qualyana, she didn't bring her back in her original state. She was nothing but a puppet. She was "alive" again but she wasn't "there." Even now she persists only to state the direct desires of Lakshmi. Even if the Ancients were restored, they wouldn't be the people the Ascians want back. They would be nothing more than echoes. Also, I would argue Shiva also isn't out to temper because all of her incarnations have been someone with the Echo evoking her powers. But the echo itself is arguably proof we are tempered by Hydaelyn. Our goal is to preserve her. There's argument as to how much of our fight is because we're her one of her tempered. We think we're cognizant and functional, but how much of that comes from Hydaelyn? That also hearkens back to a plot point many of us forget, and that's when Midgardsormr stripped us of the blessing, something he'd made a pact with Hydaelyn to do. Sure we recovered it, but at this point, The Scions have known better than to blindly trust Hydealyn since Minfillia became The Word of the Mother. What Emet Selch and Elidibus have taught us have served only to further our own distrust of what Hydaelyn ISN'T telling us, because we know she's keeping something secret.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal
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01-14-2021, 10:05 PMStyrmwydaYou forgot Alexander, he sacrificed himself because he knew that a perfect world would be impossible with him in it (as he would drain the world barren just by existing). There is also whether the tempering was intentional or not, like with Ramuh.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal
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01-14-2021, 11:44 PMLineageRazor
On the topic of whether Zodiark could grant the Ascians' request to resurrect their fallen comrades, that's very hard to say. We don't know the full extent of Zodiark's power. We also don't know anything at all about his personality, and whether he'd be the sort to lie to his summoners for some unknown personal agenda. The Ascians clearly believe he can do it. Their reasons might be baseless (lies by Zodiark, or Tempering-inspired exaggeration of their deity's power), or grounded (they did create the guy, after all, and might actually know what he's capable of).
Personally, I believe that Zodiark is fully capable of everything the Ascians say he's capable of, simply because it makes the story more poignant - that everything they wish for CAN be made a reality, but making it so requires inflicting so much evil on the worlds.
I don't recall the Scions expressing any suspicion of Hydaelyn at any point either before or after Minfillia became the Word. Not even after Hydaelyn was revealed as a PRIMAL have any of them openly expressed any doubt in regards to her, as much as, logically, they SHOULD. Though, admittedly, this is in part because they don't seem to talk about her directly at all, anymore, and it was pretty much just Minfillia that talked about her back in ARR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusavari
The only ones expressing any doubt about the benevolent nature of Hydaelyn are players - and not even all players. There's nothing canonically in-game about anyone harshing on Hy aside from the Ascians, and they are notably biased. -
01-15-2021, 12:34 AMRosenstrauch
Seriously. It seems like every time Hydaelyn being a primal was brought up in Shadowbringers, the Scions, Lyse, and even Ardbert went...
It's kind of astonishing, really, how little any of them care. -
01-15-2021, 01:26 AMJandorZodiark is far more powerful than Lakshmi, just because she couldn't do it doesn't mean Zodiark can't. According to Emet, Zodiark literally rewrote the laws of reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusavari
I'm not saying he could, but a modern day knock-off Primal failing to do it isn't proof that a being that's far stronger with far greater abilities would be incapable of doing it. -
01-15-2021, 01:39 AMBrightamethystAnd Ramuh. He was satisfied when we beat him because it meant we didn't need his help in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal
Could Zodiark do everything the Ascians claim? Very likely. Would he do it? That's a pretty big unknown.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
The lore as we know it says that ANYTHING is possible as long as you have enough aether and the skill/knowledge to realize it. Zodiark could almost certainly bring everyone back to life and remake the world. The question is whether or not he would actually follow the original plan, especially this many thousands of years later and now lacking Elidibus as a guide. -
01-15-2021, 02:22 AMRenewalXVIII mean, in the context of the tempering theory debate at least, the pro-Hydaelyn/anti-tempering faction (and I say this as a pro-Hydaelyn individual) has pretty much the same reaction: even if she is a primal, nothing she's done has been malicious, and there's no evidence of the harmful effects other primals have, despite her existing for millennia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch
But that's because the story has just completely refused to focus on Hydaelyn at all; the most she's been relevant in ShB has been in the accounts of Emet-Selch in revealing her as a primal and her role in the Sundering, and Venat's appearance, not as herself. I would dearly love more concrete information on what the implications of Hydaelyn being a primal are, especially in her own words, so I could at least offer an affirmative defense instead of relying on the absence of evidence of deleterious and malicious effects. But at the moment all we have is what the story is not telling us. -
01-15-2021, 05:10 AMquotey
Lots of people thought after the first Eden tier that the Ascians would try to use it to restore the Thirteenth to a reasonable state. Maybe that could still happen in the future, I suppose.
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01-15-2021, 06:49 AMSannaR
Then we have an assumed WoL go against Hydelean in the Ivalice raids where the last boss of Rabanaster at one point agreed to take an auracite made by Ultima. Any other primal's tempering most likely wouldn't have allowed that to be a possibility.
Sure, Zodiark is powerful yet even he needed a 2nd shot of souls to boost the ecosystem. -
01-15-2021, 09:28 AMYianKutkuTechnically Alexander is still around (and clogging up the Tipped Ewer), but he did kind of shut himself off from the whole world and its happenings, in a sort of stasis bubble. It's a sacrifice of presence and action, since I don't think Alexander can self-terminate, so he did the next best thing of shutting himself away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Styrmwyda
My completely unsupported speculation is that the primary mechanism for bringing back the sacrificed Ancients is not so much Zodiark being a wish-granting machine, but rather offering up the aether of the life that grew after the Final Days as a substitute for what Zodiark had taken from the Ancients. Sort of like offering a replacement bundle of aether and getting the previous sacrifices back.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Still, one question that hasn't really been answered either way (whether my speculation is the case, or if it's just another sacrificial offering to the Zodiark genie) is how this would affect the environment of the world, given the Amaurotines had to sacrifice a quarter of their number (half of the remainder) just to restore the world after the Final Days.
The example I use is how Saint Ajora was a WoL, but unsealed Ultima anyway for personal gain. And the unsealing of Ultima was undeniably a bad thing for everyone else, so it can't even be spun into some sort of rebellion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
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01-15-2021, 11:38 AMSlatersev
This question was actually answered in the Final Role Quest that unlocks after you complete the 4 Role Quest lines.
TLDR: The Ascians had plans to restore the 13th using the 1'st over abundance of Light Aether, Ardbert and co naturally ended up derailing the plan quite thoroughly. -
01-15-2021, 03:48 PMBrightamethystNo they didn't. That was just a lie they told Cylva to trick her into helping prime the First for rejoining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatersev
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01-15-2021, 08:52 PMJandorWe know that wasn't the Ascians real plan because they successfully executed their actual plan and used that Light Aether to rejoin the 1st to the Source. We had a lot of quests about it :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Slatersev
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01-16-2021, 09:25 AMSlatersev
Hm? I was under the impression that they were gonna use it for both.
Remember, the Flood was not part of the plan, the 1'st was supposed to be primed for rejoining, Ardbert wasn't supposed to beat Clyva or spare her. That threw the plan outta wack, led to Mitron and Loghrif's deaths and caused the Flood.
Quick thinking on Emet's part salvaged things, but it was never supposed to get to that point.
I just assumed the plan for the First involved restoring the Thirteenth and Rejoining the First at the same time. But the Thirteenth would be restored as a Shard, not rejoined alongside the First as the same time. -
01-16-2021, 11:00 AMYianKutkuThe issue is that as Cylva tells it, she uses the same type of wording that Ascians generally use (possibly quoting them verbatim), which is very probably deliberately worded to be as vague as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatersev
The actual words used:
This just states blandly that if X happens, then Y will also happen. It doesn't actually say that X will cause Y. Therefore, the Thirteenth falling into Darkness doesn't actually mean the First falling to Light has anything to do with saving it. A common interpretation on this forum is that the Thirteenth falling to Darkness just meant the First was affected by it, and thus made easier to fall to Light, and Cylva was doing the Ascians' plans because she thought it was the best way to save the First, while assuming that the Thirteenth is forever doomed.Quote:
A shard subsumed by Dark demands a mirror of blinding Light. Primordial forces will strive to achieve equilibrium.
In fact, the extra questline with Unukalhai in 5.4 revealed that Cylva didn't think the Thirteenth was salvageable, and that the Ascians didn't think so either (according to her). It was only the (ongoing slow) reversal of the Empty via Eden that helped convince her and Unukalhai of the possibility of doing the same to the Thirteenth. -
01-16-2021, 05:01 PMBeddictI bolded the part that I think is most relevant here, that being the word "restored". The Amaurotines didn't die and return to the Lifestream, they were sacrificed and absorbed into Zodiark, and we have seen that Elidibus was able to extract his soul from Zodiark. This is far different from the case with Lakshmi where the daughter had died and returned to the Lifestream. Once the soul is in the Lifestream, it's gone, only coming back out when it's reincarnated. I think it's likely that Zodiark could restore the souls of the sacrificed Amaurotines since he actually has them, although whether or not he's willing to do so is up in the air since we don't know much about his personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusavari