***SPOILERS*** Possible Identity of the 5.5 trial might be different then we expect.

So I know most of us are expecting Diamond weapon with

either Alfonse or possibly Allie trying to save her brother being the pilot and Zenos being the oversoul identity

but what if the 5.5 trial is instead

Lunar Bahamut. I know it might seem far fetched to believe because ever since HW we have only had a required MQS trial in the X.3 patches but I believe there is evidence that Lunar Bahamut might be the trial for 5.5 in the MQS and Diamond might not be.

For one lets look at the weapons questline as to why it might not be diamond. In 5.3 we were introduced to our own mech to combat diamond. However instead of implying that this would be a one time feature with it being destroyed, the way some of the characters refer to it, and the fact that we can even go to see it and pose with it in the hanger makes me think that it will be used again in the future. Now this could be a tool used in future expansions, but what if it is used to combat the Diamond weapon, with some upgrades to make it a much more epic and involved fight then sapphire.

Now for the evidence that it might be Lunar Bahamut. For one this is a a threat I imagine the main characters might try and take care of before kicking off 6.0, to make sure Eorzea and Doma are somewhat safe before venturing most likely into Islabard. The other main reason has to do with some of the content in ShB feeling like callbacks to ARR. Norvandt was an alternate version of Aldernard with certain parallels, we fought alternate versions of the original Primals as well as the Cloud of Darkness in the Eden raid series, we fought oversouls of Nael and Gaius in the weapons series, even going so far as to bring back Nael's dreaded meteors to some degree, even Amnesis Anyder's final boss had a similar mechanic with the bubbles under the hatch doors being an indication of adds spawning like last boss in Satasha, the very first dungeon in the game. So what better way to cap this off then a fight against Lunar Bahamut, with call backs to the original Bahamut fight at the end of the Binding coil of Bahamut, the original raid series for ARR, with perhaps a remix of Answers as well. This is also a mark against Diamond possibly being the 5.5 trial as well due to Zenos not really having any ties to either ARR or Legacy.

Does anyone else agree this may be the direction they go or will it stick to tradition and Lunar Bahamut be the one dispatched in a single player duty or saved for a trail in 6.0 like Shinryu was and Diamond will in fact be the 5.5 trial?

I don't think they would tease the 5.5 trial as hard as they did only to change up the formula. In my opinion, your trial guess is more likely for the regularly scheduled X.5 Solo Duty.

Or here's an even crazier idea: why not have more than one trial for Patch 5.5x?
We did get three trials back in Patch 2.5x (Gilgamesh, Nabriales and Vishap) and two trials back in Patch 4.5x (Seiryu and Yojimbo) after all...

What is more realistically going to happen, is the G-Warrior suit is used to fight the diamond weapon and destroy it.

The trial will be the result of oversoul mastery of the diamond weapon, which will either scrap the G-warrior or just have to be fought on foot.

I don't think we'll be fighting Zenos as the Oversoul. We see a test being conducted and the consequence is Valens deducing that Zenos' data is much too unstable and unreliable due to his nature as a ravenous beast.

He's likely to use the data of someone who he thinks is easier to control. As for who that could be? Maybe Solus or Varis. Or we might even see the data of some currently unknown Garlean soldier to give some insight to one of the Legions that hasn't been touched on as of yet.

I suppose we can't rule out Valens himself powering himself up somehow and being a 'surprise' fight. Though I'm inclined to think he'll probably be eliminated by Gaius and/or whichever of the orphans happen to survive.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Though I'm inclined to think he'll probably be eliminated by Gaius and/or whichever of the orphans happen to survive.

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I find it interesting you anticipate one of the orphans to live. At this point, because the title was the "Sorrows" and the other orphans died, I expect them all to die and push Gaius to change as a person.

I could see Valens just deciding to pilot Diamond Weapon himself if he catches onto what Alphonse is scheming.

The guy has a personal grudge against Gaius and he already knows he can't rely on the orphans to get things done. He also doesn't seem like he's actually aware of their relation to him yet, but if he finds out I can see him using them to lure Gaius in.

I don't think all the orphans will die. If anything, I see all of them but one dying or even Gaius sacrificing himself so that his remaining two kids survive and them then taking up his role/cause in his stead. Which they're arguably already doing TBH; they just someone to talk some more sense into them. And get them the heck away from Valens.

It's worth pointing out that the final Four Lords quests had both an 8-man trial and a solo trail, so I could see them doing something similar here. 8-man fight against Diamond Weapon with Zenos' oversoul and a solo fight (probably with some NPCs) against Valens. Assuming Valens isn't in Diamond Weapon himself. They could also easily reverse the order to do a solo instance first so that none of the orphans are available to control Diamond Weapon so Valens has to instead. I actually really like the potential that scenario has...

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

It's worth pointing out that the final Four Lords quests had both an 8-man trial and a solo trail, so I could see them doing something similar here. 8-man fight against Diamond Weapon with Zenos' oversoul and a solo fight (probably with some NPCs) against Valens. Assuming Valens isn't in Diamond Weapon himself. They could also easily reverse the order to do a solo instance first so that none of the orphans are available to control Diamond Weapon so Valens has to instead. I actually really like the potential that scenario has...

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This is probably backward because of the G-Warrior. G-warrior is the instance fight against Diamond weapon. Then the trial is Valens oversoul into Zenos fighting style.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

It's worth pointing out that the final Four Lords quests had both an 8-man trial and a solo trial

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It should have had a solo trial, but it didn't. We only got to watch the WoL defeat Koryu in a cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Or here's an even crazier idea: why not have more than one trial for Patch 5.5x?
We did get three trials back in Patch 2.5x (Gilgamesh, Nabriales and Vishap) and two trials back in Patch 4.5x (Seiryu and Yojimbo) after all...

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To add to this, they also added two new trials in patch 5.2. Ruby Weapon (5.2), and Memoria Misera (5.25). So it definitely wouldn't be out of the ordinary for SE to introduce two trials in a patch.
Another thing to keep in mind: the x.5 patches always get split up into two parts, so it's definitely possible for them to throw Diamond Weapon into part 1, and a MSQ trial into part 2.

I hope y'all are right, and that we get two trials.

Things are complicated here.

On the Werlyt front, we know Diamond Weapon is coming with Zenos as the loaded data. However there are strong intimations the G-Warrior is going to see more use, and even after Diamond Weapon is dealt with Valens is still going to need to be dealt with. One can only guess how this puzzle is going to fit together.

On the MSQ front, we've never had a full-on X.5(5) trial and Estinien's (intimated) involvement in dealing with Lunar Bahamut would put things closer to a solo duty (typical for X.5(5) patches). Then again, curveballs can be thrown.

... and with the general shakeup of developed content, and Bozja still needing to be accounted for, how things are going to play out is pretty much anyone's guess.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

On the MSQ front, we've never had a full-on X.5(5) trial and Estinien's (intimated) involvement in dealing with Lunar Bahamut would put things closer to a solo duty (typical for X.5(5) patches). Then again, curveballs can be thrown.

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Let's not forget about patch 2.5 adding The Chrysalis, followed by the Steps of Faith in patch 2.55. Both were trials tied to the MSQ.

Why not both though?

I get your point, in the Mech being used to combat Diamond, but on that, I kind of picture it being used to weaken Diamond, so we can fight it in an actual Trial.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't think we'll be fighting Zenos as the Oversoul. We see a test being conducted and the consequence is Valens deducing that Zenos' data is much too unstable and unreliable due to his nature as a ravenous beast.

He's likely to use the data of someone who he thinks is easier to control. As for who that could be? Maybe Solus or Varis. Or we might even see the data of some currently unknown Garlean soldier to give some insight to one of the Legions that hasn't been touched on as of yet.

I suppose we can't rule out Valens himself powering himself up somehow and being a 'surprise' fight. Though I'm inclined to think he'll probably be eliminated by Gaius and/or whichever of the orphans happen to survive.

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A Sephiroth van Gast perhaps. What other obedient supersoldier do we have to draw from to conclude this FF7 themed trial series?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

A Sephiroth van Gast perhaps. What other obedient supersoldier do we have to draw from to conclude this FF7 themed trial series?

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Who wants Sephiroth when we have his clearly-ripped-off-but-way-less-interesting wannabe Zenos?

While 2.5 / 2.55 did have two trials, neither had an EX difficulty. That's highly irregular to what we've been given since; I'm not saying it's impossible we'll get 2 full Trials (with an EX mode for Diamond Weapon, obvs) just that it's not likely based on available data of what's been implemented in previous X.5(5) patches.

Valens flat-out stated he was using Zenos' data for Diamond Weapon; I don't think they'd make a shocking swerve for the sake of unpredictability and it makes in-universe sense (with Zenos being one of if not the finest warrior ever produced by the Empire). I agree it would be nice to learn more about other Legions (and question the wisdom of using the combat data of people we've already defeated against us), but unpredictability and surprises are not this game's strong suit for better or worse.

Could we get Trials against Lunar Bahamut, Diamond Weapon, and Valens van Varro? Well, yes, we could. However between that high Trial load and 5.X's other loose ends that need to be tied up (YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse's conclusion and what should be the last segment of Save the Queen), along with the obligatory dungeon and MSQ content, based on what we've gotten in Shadowbringers so far I have a very hard time believing we're getting two dungeons (MSQ / Save the Queen), a raid, an open field instance, and three full Trials.

And where's my goddamn crafted GNB weapons?! Exarchic stuff is cool and all but it's too expensive to buy a full set on my alt. I want a chocolate bar, don't touch me...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Valens flat-out stated he was using Zenos' data for Diamond Weapon

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I think most people interpret that scene as him flat out stating is isn't going to use Zenos.

If they were going to use Zenos, Emerald would have been a much better choice. They could have given his oversoul a Shinryu reprieve, complete with it's green glow, and that way the Diamond-Gaius reveal in 5.5 would have been much more meaningful and a fitting conclusion to the 'Werlyt' saga, ending it with a fight in Werlyt itself.

Now, they have to top the Gaius/Werlyt battle somehow.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think most people interpret that scene as him flat out stating is isn't going to use Zenos.

If they were going to use Zenos, Emerald would have been a much better choice. They could have given his oversoul a Shinryu reprieve, complete with it's green glow, and that way the Diamond-Gaius reveal in 5.5 would have been much more meaningful and a fitting conclusion to the 'Werlyt' saga, ending it with a fight in Werlyt itself.

Now, they have to top the Gaius/Werlyt battle somehow.

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My takeaway from that scene was not "Valens is not going to use Zenos' data" but "Valens is going to keep making adjustments and throwing "savages" into the meatgrinder until he gets his desired results, e.g. a "Zenos" that is loyal and obedient to him."

I agree that using Gaius for the final battle would be thematically fitting, but apparently that's not the direction they decided to go in. I earlier said surprises are not this game's strong suit, but I was earnestly surprised they did not save him for last.

No disrespect but "They should have done [X] instead of [Y]" isn't very productive for making guesses (educated or otherwise) as to where a given plot is going.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I think most people interpret that scene as him flat out stating is isn't going to use Zenos.

If they were going to use Zenos, Emerald would have been a much better choice. They could have given his oversoul a Shinryu reprieve, complete with it's green glow, and that way the Diamond-Gaius reveal in 5.5 would have been much more meaningful and a fitting conclusion to the 'Werlyt' saga, ending it with a fight in Werlyt itself.

Now, they have to top the Gaius/Werlyt battle somehow.

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No, Valens is going full Zenos combat data. He's clearly experimenting with the best way to get it to work to his advantage. And yes Zenos has to come after Gaius, because Zenos is the more powerful and brutal soldier Gaius isn't.

Plus having an oversoul Zenos fight as the final trial is a use of material for the trailer to make us think the MSQ is giving us a showdown with Zenos but rope-a-dope us into something we can't see coming in the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

My takeaway from that scene was not "Valens is not going to use Zenos' data" but "Valens is going to keep making adjustments and throwing "savages" into the meatgrinder until he gets his desired results, e.g. a "Zenos" that is loyal and obedient to him."

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But he has his pilot, it's Alfonse. His experiment is to find the right data to use for the Oversoul.
If the pilot is the variable, then that experiment is completely useless. You end up spending your successful candidate in the experiment and then have nothing left for the practical application.
The obvious conclusion is that he needs the data of an obedient soldier to ensure that Alfonse doesn't betray him.
And for a prediction: Alfonse tries to turn on the Empire but Valens remotely activates Oversoul, transforming him into this obedient soldier's persona, and we have to fight him.

Zenos would be too much, we're still fighting him in the MSQ. That's why they ruled him out.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But he has his pilot, it's Alfonse. His experiment is to find the right data to use for the Oversoul.
If the pilot is the variable, then that experiment is completely useless. You end up spending your successful candidate in the experiment and then have nothing left for the practical application.
The obvious conclusion is that he needs the data of an obedient soldier to ensure that Alfonse doesn't betray him.
And for a prediction: Alfonse tries to turn on the Empire but Valens remotely activates Oversoul, transforming him into this obedient soldier's persona, and we have to fight him.

Zenos would be too much, we're still fighting him in the MSQ. That's why they ruled him out.

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The point is to fine-tune the loaded data so when Oversoul is activated the Zenos clone stays loyal and obedient. The genius of the Oversoul system is that it effectively allows anyone to be a pilot by forcing a consciousness derived from the loaded data into the current pilot, physically transforming them into a grotesque copy of the loaded data's original person and overwriting their consciousness. (It's synthetic auracite, and given normal auracite draws out the worst qualities of its wielder and transforms them into lucavi, this is hardly surprising.)

Valens is just throwing "savages" into tests as a meatgrinder to get the loaded data just right to the point the "Zenos" created by the Oversoul system stays loyal and obedient. He's fully aware Alfonse intends to betray him, hence why he is making the Oversoul remote activated; that way if Alfonse isn't performing as well as he wants or if (when) he makes his play Valens can just activate Oversoul and nip any attempt to do so in the bud. Valens is many things, but considering he's apparently taken cues from Hojo stupid is not one of them.

All that said we don't exactly know how the conclusion to Werlyt is going to play out. Diamond Weapon, Zenos data, G-Warrior, and whatever hidden plan Allie has are all on the table; how it all fits together is anyone's guess.

(And we don't know we're fighting Zenos in 5.5(5) yet.)

I just don't think they would give it away like that. Nael and Gaius oversouls were both 'surprises', so why spoil it with that cutscene, that ambiguously implies they're ruling out Zenos instead...

I never said 5.5, Zenos is still a current main villain, we've already fought him 3 times, we're going to fight him again at some point, a Zenos oversoul would just be overkill.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While 2.5 / 2.55 did have two trials, neither had an EX difficulty. That's highly irregular to what we've been given since; I'm not saying it's impossible we'll get 2 full Trials (with an EX mode for Diamond Weapon, obvs) just that it's not likely based on available data of what's been implemented in previous X.5(5) patches.

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A MSQ trial doesn't necessarily need an EX difficulty, if there's already an EX trial included in a patch. They can easily go with Diamond Weapon Normal/EX + MSQ trial. This is similar to the amount of trials added in patches like 2.5 (Chrysalis, Steps of Faith, Gilgamesh + an already developed Odin), or 5.2 (Ruby Weapon Normal/EX, Memoria Misera EX + the solo version of Memoria Misera).

Considering they've also been cutting into the other content:
-One Expert dungeon, compared to 2.5's Amdapor Keep HM/Wanderer's Palace HM/Keeper of the Lake.
-Only one open field instance so far, compared to Anemos/Pagos/Pyros/Hydatos. Likely ending up in just two open field instances by the end of Shadowbringers.

It actually wouldn't be too insane for them to even add all three of those names you've listed, although they'd likely turn Valens into a post-Diamond Weapon solo duty, similar to the solo duty against Regula van Hydrus.

Also it'd probably be a good idea to specify that you were talking about trials that have both Normal & EX difficulties, in the post that I previously replied to, instead of simply writing "full-on X.5(5) trial".

I just think fighting an oversoul Zenos is the play they will go with; only to mess with us in screen shots and 5.5 trailer.

Both of those can be cut deceptively to imply they are part of the msq only to be apart of the Sorrows trial.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I just think fighting an oversoul Zenos is the play they will go with; only to mess with us in screen shots and 5.5 trailer.

Both of those can be cut deceptively to imply they are part of the msq only to be apart of the Sorrows trial.

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I don't think they tailor the plot and content of the game around what they can show in trailers. Seems like a backwards way to do things.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I don't think they tailor the plot and content of the game around what they can show in trailers. Seems like a backwards way to do things.

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I see it as a confluence of opportunity. They didn't necessarily plan it this way, but since they are going to line up anyway, why would you pass the chance tease the community?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I see it as a confluence of opportunity. They didn't necessarily plan it this way, but since they are going to line up anyway, why would you pass the chance tease the community?

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Sure it could work out that way, but the problem is you're basing this logic on the assumption that it's Zenos anyway. If it's not Zenos anyway, then there's nothing to work with here.

Going off of 5.4 i would not be surprised if he just went with his own combat data because "i can control myself :D". Also i dont think there will be two trials. More likely is that we get two solo instances or someone else pilots G-warrior (Which one has to have pre authorized to do it so no one can just steal it)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I don't think they tailor the plot and content of the game around what they can show in trailers. Seems like a backwards way to do things.

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For big plot points, probably not. For smaller ones.... well, let's just say I'm highly dubious of the need for the "Night's Blessed borrow the names of their parents or mentors" thing which seems to have little point beyond allowing for that trailer scene where Y'shtola got called Matoya. It spawned months of speculation over what turned out to be a very boring truth.