Allow ROGUE/NINJA's Hide ability to actually... hide.

Title says all. Please allow NINs to really hide. It's silly to be blurred and still be able to be seen by other players. In other mmos this is completely doable. Just make them look blurred when you're in a party so your team members can see you. If you're not in a party, then players shouldn't be able to see you in certain distance in the same way monsters don't see you. Please implement this SE. It defeats the purpose of a Stealth class to not be actually stealthed.

I tried this when I was a ninja and was very disappointed everyone could see me.

I like how they did it in wow where you only knew they were there when they came right up to you, and it had this cool sound effect when they appeared in view.

I would also like it if the functionality of hiding were expanded.
It doesn't seem to hide you from mobs I deep dungeons for example.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I would also like it if the functionality of hiding were expanded.
It doesn't seem to hide you from mobs I deep dungeons for example.

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That would be because they don't want you to just walk straight past all the enemies and complete the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That would be because they don't want you to just walk straight past all the enemies and complete the dungeon.

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You need to kill a boss every 10 floors in the deep dungeon. And without killing all the trash in your way, you won't level up and your *ss will be destroyed in seconds anyway

On top of that you have to kill many mobs to unlock the exit. You cannot simply sneak through to the end of the dungeon.

And I'm not saying hide should work against all enemies. But at least let it work on ones that detect you visually come on

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Originally Posted by chrisfantasy

Title says all. Please allow NINs to really hide. It's silly to be blurred and still be able to be seen by other players. In other mmos this is completely doable. Just make them look blurred when you're in a party so your team members can see you. If you're not in a party, then players shouldn't be able to see you in certain distance in the same way monsters don't see you. Please implement this SE. It defeats the purpose of a Stealth class to not be actually stealthed.

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It's not like real life Ninja or Final Fantasy Ninja were capable of invisibility. In fact, I think it was only the Sniper in FFTA that could conceal themselves, Ninja was merely a dual-wielding sword caster hybrid that operated in the open.

Then what's the purpose of hide then? I have to disagree with your notion that a ninja is just another dual wielder. A ninja is a stealth assassin, the whole point is to go undetected like a cat prowls on its prey. When you use hide you're super slow, ok that's fine, but there's no benefit to it. If we're going by "IRL" standards then someone who hits an unsuspected target, then the target receives more damage than if the target was aware and prepared to receive the blow. In other words, games usually implement like "first hit from stealth is always a critical hit, or increased damage by 20% on the first hit" and stuff of the sorts. That's the flavor about the class/job. What I'm proposing is to make hide something truly flavorful, useful and impactful not just another melee class with different skins in their skills. The job itself is fun. I like the mudras and skills overall so I'm not saying that it's all bad just for the sake of argument. All I'm saying is that by giving the job a better identity (I don't even main NIN), that would bring more enjoyment to those who play it and make me more inclined to play it. It's my personal opinion and suggestion. People can disagree, but I'm sure a good portion of the NIN community would agree with me as I've seen. This is what forums are for right? Making suggestions on how to improve something.

Precisely! There is almost no reason to use hide otherwise than looking like the kid who is trying to hide behind the curtain while everybody can see your feet lol. Hitting criticals/harder from hide by sneaking up to monsters is what would be fun for me and give the job the flavor it needs. NINs are already underpowered compared to other dps so why not giving them a little buff that's both good numerically and mechanically?

Trust me—you can't see me when I hide.

Hide? What's that? OOHHHH that thing....yeah I took that off my bars. Until SE actually makes it functionable, it's just clutter on my bars.

But just like me I'm certain SE has forgotten that NIN even exists.

Useless ability. Having some rp fun is the only use for it

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Useless ability. Having some rp fun is the only use for it

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Resets mudras far from useless

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Until SE actually makes it functionable, it's just clutter on my bars.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Useless ability. Having some rp fun is the only use for it

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It.. resets your mudra count. You use it between pulls in dungeons to refresh them. Or with a small amount of coordination with the tank on boss pulls, top off Huton and slap down a Doton for them to pull the boss into and hide before combat initiates to reset back to two counts (admittedly not entirely worth the trouble, but hey it's free damage). Or for trash, top off Huton, slap down a Doton, and hide to get two stacks back before the Doton ticks register so you have two free Katon for AoE.


* Heck, you should be using it in raids too before the pull. No reason to not go into the fight with two mudra counts rather than just one after the obligatory Huton.

I mean it must be a new thing for NIN then, I wouldn't know because NIN has been...well it's been NIN.

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Originally Posted by chrisfantasy

Then what's the purpose of hide then? I have to disagree with your notion that a ninja is just another dual wielder. A ninja is a stealth assassin, the whole point is to go undetected like a cat prowls on its prey. When you use hide you're super slow, ok that's fine, but there's no benefit to it. If we're going by "IRL" standards then someone who hits an unsuspected target, then the target receives more damage than if the target was aware and prepared to receive the blow. In other words, games usually implement like "first hit from stealth is always a critical hit, or increased damage by 20% on the first hit" and stuff of the sorts. That's the flavor about the class/job. What I'm proposing is to make hide something truly flavorful, useful and impactful not just another melee class with different skins in their skills. The job itself is fun. I like the mudras and skills overall so I'm not saying that it's all bad just for the sake of argument. All I'm saying is that by giving the job a better identity (I don't even main NIN), that would bring more enjoyment to those who play it and make me more inclined to play it. It's my personal opinion and suggestion. People can disagree, but I'm sure a good portion of the NIN community would agree with me as I've seen. This is what forums are for right? Making suggestions on how to improve something.

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"A ninja (忍者, Japanese pronunciation: [ɲiꜜɲdʑa]) or shinobi (忍び, [ɕinobi]) was a covert agent or mercenary in feudal Japan. The functions of a ninja included espionage, deception, and surprise attacks. Their covert methods of waging irregular warfare were deemed dishonorable and beneath the honor of the samurai. Though shinobi proper, as specially trained spies and mercenaries, appeared in the 15th century during the Sengoku period, antecedents may have existed as early as the 12th century."

Note that it does not mention that Ninja in real life were assassins though they were not above assassinations, it was not their main role.

Ninja and Assassin are two seperate classes in Final Fantasy and neither of them conceal themselves:

Known for its overwhelming speed and strength, the Ninja is also notorious for having one of the most coveted support abilities, Double Sword, which allows a hume to equip two one-handed weapons simultaneously, increasing attack strength and allowing the character to learn weapon abilities at an otherwise impossible rate. Even if a Ninja is unnecessary for the party, most players use this class just for Double Sword, which allows the wielder to master other jobs faster.

As a combatant, the Ninja has almost unparalleled speed. Being the second fastest class the Ninja is only outpaced by Assassins or other Ninjas. Its other stats are offense oriented, boasting high attack and even decent magic power. Ninja is a popular candidate for using Thief abilities, seeing their speed and because Thief abilities are required to unlock the job in the first place. The Ninja's ranged abilities inflict useful status effects, giving them a degree of support as well. Although only wielding katanas, they are powerful weapons.

The Ninja's HP is low while their defense and resistance are meager, making it a poor tank. Double Sword, despite all its usefulness, is time-consuming to master. Though the Ninja has surprisingly high magic power, the low base power of its abilities makes it unable to inflict significant magical damage.

Overall, the Ninja is one of the best classes. Double Sword is among the most broken support abilities making this class appealing even if the player never plans to use Ninja in combat.

It is almost impossible to outpace enemy Ninjas. One of the classic strategies is to let the Ninja attack the party's tankier units, like a Paladin or Mog Knight, and then down the Ninja once the team gets moving. However, even the tanky units can struggle against Ninja, who can inflict statuses like immobilize to make one's defensive units useless. The player should not leave a ranged unit or mage in the Ninja's attack range. As long as the player is careful with the positioning of their ranged units, enemy Ninjas can be dealt with effectively. Like their basic counterpart, the Thief, going for reckless abilities like Beatdown or Mog Rush does not pay off due to their high evasion.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...20061221034123


Notoriously fast and furious, Assassin is considered by many the game's most overpowered class. The combination of their abilities, stat growth, and equipment makes the game a cakewalk. Nearly all of the Assassin's abilities inflict debilitating status effects, such as Stop, Doom, Silence, and Addle. The Last Breath instantly KOs a target. Assassin also has the viera's Ultima ability: Ultima Masher.

Assassin wields katanas and greatbows, both powerful weapon types. It has unparalleled speed and respectably high stat gains minus HP and defense. It is a versatile class, able to use other abilities effectively with maybe the exception of the magically inclined classes. Assassin does not learn any support abilities, but mastering Concentrate from the Archer allows near pinpoint accuracy for nearly all of its abilities.

The Assassin's HP and defense are not great and it has low healing and defensive capabilities as a whole. Assassin is the most difficult class to unlock since it requires mastery of other advanced classes, which in turn require more mastered abilities. Many of the Assassin's best abilities are only learned from weapons found very late, which limits the Assassin's usefulness. Its ability set almost entirely consists of status effects, and thus enemies who defend against status ailments may give an Assassin slightly more trouble. Assassins are not better greatbow users than the Sniper, since some of their abilities, like Last Breath, can only be used in melee range.

Overall, the Assassin is stacked with high damage, status effects, and blistering speed, and can become even more broken with the right set of abilities. The only difficulties come in the form of lacking defensive techniques, possessing demanding unlock requirements, and maybe even making the game much less enjoyable.

The player cannot hope to outspeed enemy Assassins who also have extremely few weaknesses; Assassins can decimate frail targets, like mages and Ninjas, with their high attack and range (if wielding a greatbow). Tanks like Defenders and Paladins also face certain doom from the Assassin's deadly repertoire of status effects, worsened by the classes' low evasion. Other support jobs are outdone by the Assassin's ludicrous speed. Equipping status-immunity equipment can mitigate the threat, but Assassins can still deal major damage with Ultima Masher and their strong weapons. Assassins are at their weakest when cornered and outnumbered.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...20061218235518

Being the powerhouses of the viera, Snipers boast the best attack and great speed. Wielding greatbows, Snipers can be seen as the viera counterpart to the hume Hunter. Unlike Hunters, Snipers take a more lethal approach with their abilities. Aim: Armor and Aim: Weapon can break vital equipment, while Doom Archer still makes them a threat even at critical health. Armed with Concentrate from the Archer class, Snipers can dish out damage, poison, and doom with alarming speed. Their stats in areas other than strength and speed are low. With such one-sided stat growth, Snipers are much less geared for support than other viera classes. Some of the Sniper's abilities, such as Conceal and Aim: Wallet, can be very situational. Overall, Snipers are inflexible attackers and it is nearly impossible to use them in ways other than hurting opponents without introducing magic.

Enemy Snipers' equipment-destroying abilities are problematic as the loss of valuable and possibly limited quantity equipment takes away power, possibly AP, and is just plain frustrating. If not for their offensive strength, the possibility of equipment loss warrants taking enemy Snipers down first. Snipers hit hard and move fast, so the player should deploy tanks on the front lines. It's usually difficult to outpace Snipers, so it is better to approach cautiously and strike them when they have no more distance to use.

If and when a Sniper is given magical prowess, the faraway form of one can prove a delicate balance. Red or Summon Magic may enhance a 'keep away' vibe. Not every Sniper build must rely on bow range; using Summon Magic to destroy a gathering crowd of enemies would restore her range, while White or Spirit Magic may lead to an unspoken bond between her and the player's other ranged units. The constant long range of the Sniper can put the optional Assassin to shame. Snipers are fragile; as the only class that can Vanish, it's soon apparent why.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...20061221050536

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

I mean it must be a new thing for NIN then, I wouldn't know because NIN has been...well it's been NIN.

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I am reasonably certain that using Hide to refresh mudras has been a thing since at least Stormblood.

Why exactly do you want to be completely invisible to other players? They can still see your name above your head anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Hide? What's that? OOHHHH that thing....yeah I took that off my bars. Until SE actually makes it functionable, it's just clutter on my bars.

But just like me I'm certain SE has forgotten that NIN even exists.

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Er... no, Hide is essential for the Ninja opener, it resets your mudras.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

I am reasonably certain that using Hide to refresh mudras has been a thing since at least Stormblood.

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no i don't think it was already doing that in SB, but i have stopped playing NIN at the end of HW since my static needed a PLD ( back in the time when Ninja had some aggro managment tools, and the possibility to gave TP back to people i miss them and the time when evey job had more things to think about than just the bare minimum )

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Originally Posted by Masked-dingus

no i don't think it was already doing that in SB, but i have stopped playing NIN at the end of HW since my static needed a PLD ( back in the time when Ninja had some aggro managment tools, and the possibility to gave TP back to people i miss them and the time when evey job had more things to think about than just the bare minimum )

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I'm pretty sure it was, lots of ninjas complained about not their hide reset not being as helpful in O6 due to the delay between aggroing the boss and the fight proper starting (when goddess chadarnook faded out and demon chadarnook took her place, you had aggro and couldn't hide during that time)

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Useless ability. Having some rp fun is the only use for it

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Blend in with your surroundings, making it impossible for most enemies to detect you, but reducing movement speed by 50%. Has no effect on enemies 10 levels higher than your own, or certain enemies with special sight.
Additional Effect: Restores 2 charges to all mudra

It's so useless you just have to use it before starting a boss fight (after Huton of course) and/or before the tank pulls the next pack of trash in a dungeon.


Aside from that, what would be the point of fully disappearing from other people screens in a 100% PvE game?

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Originally Posted by chrisfantasy

NINs are already underpowered compared to other dps so why not giving them a little buff that's both good numerically and mechanically?

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ninjas are far from underpowered. all this thread has taught me is a lot of ppl don’t know how to play ninjas lol

You really want to be unseen by party members because ... ? Heck, even the WoW Rogue stealth isn't perfect, although it is extremely useful in PvP.

SHHHH I'm spying.

My only pet peeve with NIN, and this is just me being nitpicky, is they have one ability that requires to be hidden, and even then you have a mudra to discard the hide requirement, because you can't even use Hide in combat, and then they get another mudra to dispel the buff that takes away the hide requirement to generate ninki ....why not just take out the requirement entirely? seems like just button bloat to me /shrug

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Originally Posted by Zomkei

ninjas are far from underpowered. all this thread has taught me is a lot of ppl don’t know how to play ninjas lol

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i agree, NIN are really not underpowered at all
i already miss playing my ninja this tier ( decided to try caster in savage for once )

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Why exactly do you want to be completely invisible to other players? They can still see your name above your head anyway.

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I have names off for everyone except party members and friends. Does wonders for immersion.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I have names off for everyone except party members and friends. Does wonders for immersion.

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I did that for 5.0 and it was nice, although then I sometimes mistook people for unlabelled NPCs and I didn't like that.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

My only pet peeve with NIN, and this is just me being nitpicky, is they have one ability that requires to be hidden, and even then you have a mudra to discard the hide requirement, because you can't even use Hide in combat, and then they get another mudra to dispel the buff that takes away the hide requirement to generate ninki ....why not just take out the requirement entirely? seems like just button bloat to me /shrug

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If we're talking about Trick, Hide isn't necessarily useless. Resetting Mudras after Huton is usually how you go about using it, but outside of that sure, we can call it defunct; but then you have to ask about the ROGUE CLASS QUESTS. Yeah, those.

There's one at Lv 15 that requires you to Hide. Also consider that Trick is Lv 18. You aren't going to be casting Suiton until Lv 45, bud. That's at least 30 Levels. After that, it becomes a Reset Tool on openers. As for Hiding in Combat, it's probably done that way so that it isn't as easily accessed early on(because BOY do things BURN early if you applied Trick more than once a fight before Lv 45). Going from bottom up, at Lv 80 there are no qualms about handling Suiton, and also converting that Suiton to Ninki. In reality, it's not button bloat, but is a way to give Suiton a new use rather than just have it as "use this if Trick is coming up in 5s".

I will say in general being able to Hide to reset Mudras after expending both uses after a mob pack feels good and helps with NIN's flow in Dungeons. If it didn't have that aspect, NIN would be a bit disjointed in its usage despite the 20s lockout for a charge.

I rest my case. Only played it during ARR/HW. And completely skipped SB where they supposedly made the changes

I'm all for this. It's a good way to add job flavor without affecting anything significant.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

If we're talking about Trick, Hide isn't necessarily useless. Resetting Mudras after Huton is usually how you go about using it, but outside of that sure, we can call it defunct; but then you have to ask about the ROGUE CLASS QUESTS. Yeah, those.

There's one at Lv 15 that requires you to Hide. Also consider that Trick is Lv 18. You aren't going to be casting Suiton until Lv 45, bud. That's at least 30 Levels. After that, it becomes a Reset Tool on openers. As for Hiding in Combat, it's probably done that way so that it isn't as easily accessed early on(because BOY do things BURN early if you applied Trick more than once a fight before Lv 45). Going from bottom up, at Lv 80 there are no qualms about handling Suiton, and also converting that Suiton to Ninki. In reality, it's not button bloat, but is a way to give Suiton a new use rather than just have it as "use this if Trick is coming up in 5s".

I will say in general being able to Hide to reset Mudras after expending both uses after a mob pack feels good and helps with NIN's flow in Dungeons. If it didn't have that aspect, NIN would be a bit disjointed in its usage despite the 20s lockout for a charge.

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Actually, you're kinda agreeing on my point. Notice how I said TA's - requirement [to be hidden] - what's pointless, not Hide itself.

Suiton has a nice 600 potency but it serves no purpose other than letting you cast TA, thus Meisui was added to give the buff other use than just hanging out there after using TA, but those 2 abilities would simply not exist if you were able to cast TA normally - they literally just exist so you have more buttons to press.

Either way, I stated that's just how I see it, if others like it as is who am I to say anything.

Ffxi Nin and thief could go completely invisible and it was an mmo

The purpose of the Hide ability is to reset your mudra stacks and that's it. It does what it's functioned to do.

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Originally Posted by ClickOnce

The purpose of the Hide ability is to reset your mudra stacks and that's it. It does what it's functioned to do.

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Yeah, but that's not to say it couldn't do more.
Like make you invisible on others screens.
Just because its functoning as intended doesn't mean they cant give it a little aesthetic touch up.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yeah, but that's not to say it couldn't do more.
Like make you invisible on others screens.
Just because its functoning as intended doesn't mean they cant give it a little aesthetic touch up.

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But... why?
They still know you're there, and also, some might like the 'ghosty' effect instead of being completely invisible.