How many legions are left and what is the status of them?

I'm assuming we're going to be seeing alot of Garlemald come 6.0 if 5.4s ending is any indication, so I wanted to find out from more lore knowledgeable folk: How many of the legions are left/active and do we know there MO?

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Originally Posted by Kiurai

I'm assuming we're going to be seeing alot of Garlemald come 6.0 if 5.4s ending is any indication, so I wanted to find out from more lore knowledgeable folk: How many of the legions are left/active and do we know there MO?

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1st Legion - Status Unknown (was engaged with 3rd legion over succession of imperial throne during 5.1-5.3)
2nd Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
3rd Legion - Status Unknown (Lead by Nerva yae Galvus, engaged with 1st legion over succession of imperial throne during 5.1-5.3, presumably still active somewhat due to ties to House Brutus (and thus Fandaniel))
4th Legion - AWOL (Lead by Noah van Gabranth, who has declared the formation of a new nation centered around Dalmasca)
5th Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
6th Legion - Status Unknown (Previously lead by Regula van Hydrus, after his death during the Warring Triad story, they have remained stranded on Azys Lla with their flagship The Gration)
7th Legion - Active (Reformed under the leadership of Valens van Varro, currently operating out of the region of Werlyt)
8th Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
9th Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
10th Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
11th Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
12th Legion - Defeated (Previously lead by Zenos yae Galvus, the majority of it's fighting force was defeated in the liberation of Ala Mhigo, though some members managed to escape and be absorbed into other legions)
13th Legion - Status Unknown (presumed still active, has not been referenced)
14th Legion - Defeated (Previously lead by Gaius van Baelsar, it was defeated in Operation Archon. Due to Gaius' actions being seen as treason, all members of the legion were branded as criminals by the Empire. After their defeat, the few imperial troops that remained in the castrums were cut off from supplies and deemed 'not a threat' by the Eorzean Alliance, thus left alone for the most part.)

So basically we have 11 Legions left, and by the end of 5.x we will probably have the number whittled down to 9, or lower depending on story events. Keep in mind 9 Legions is still a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

So basically we have 11 Legions left, and by the end of 5.x we will probably have the number whittled down to 9, or lower depending on story events. Keep in mind 9 Legions is still a lot of people.

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by "a lot", Roman legions consisted of 4 to 6 thousand soldiers, including support staff. so 9 legions is ~45 thousand.

The 14th legion must have more going on at this point since they were likely involved in housing the emerald weapon in castrum marinum and also backed up Eline Roaille when she was an active spy for varis. At the very least their exile isn't as cut and dry as being completely unaccounted for by their 'former' masters.

On the 6th legion, they are still marooned on Azys Lla. I will have to relocate the source, but I believe they are still working on the construction of a “Castrum Solus” in the zone.

Lore Book 2 goes somewhat into the XIVth Legions' situation. Which is both isn't and is as bad as you think it is. Castrum Meridianum outputs enough refined ceruleum that the entire Legion wasn't dependent on Garlemald for ceruleum when Gaius split them off from the Empire. So they can pretty much operate as much magitek as they want and who knows what else (they've got an entire shard of Dalamud to research, so... who knows what they could find down there). As late as 2.5 (when the Keeper of the Lake dungeon launched), the XIVth Legion was still cut off from Garlemald. The reason they were in the Agrius in the first place was because they were so starved of materials, they were striping parts from the 15-year-old wreck.

As far as Eline Roaille goes... she was getting desperate and wanted out of Eorzea. And we know she wasn't thinking as cleverly as usual because she was making a lot of mistakes which clued us into who exactly she was. The XIVth Legion meanwhile, was still cut off from Garlemald. Getting one of the Emperors top spies would probably have given them some much needed info on what Garlemald itself was planning on doing.

For Emerald Weapon, we learn that Rex called ahead and told everyone in Castrum Marinum that if they left before he got there, he wouldn't go after them. And those are... basically his dad's subordinates and Rex himself used to be in the XIVth Legion. There's no way the XIVth Legion in Castrum Marinum didn't know who Rex was... and Rex was planning on turning over the castrum to Gaius anyway once he won. The situation is less the XIVth Legion wanting to work with the Empire and more them knowing that no matter how it ended, they'd probably get their castrum back anyway. If Rex won, Gaius would get it, if Rex lost... Eorzea has been leaving the castrums alone for a reason; they don't have enough people to both fight a way against Garlemald in Gyr Abania and kick the XIVth Legion out. And as far as we know, the XIVth Legion hasn't been bothering anyone in Eorzea since... the 2.x patches as long as no one bothers their castrums... which is... more or less where they live.

It's also worth mentioning that the XIVth Legion has only been Gaius' legion. He's the one who started it and has always been the Legatus of it, and presumably it was being run closer to his own philosophies than other legatai's (Wyrlet quests seem to confirm this anyway). It's... probably not the worst legion to find yourself in compared to... a lot of the other legions we see. I can see the people in the XIVth Legion deciding, all things considered, they have a pretty sweet deal being stuck in Eorzea given they've managed to sit out two whole civil wars and the Gyr Abania conflict and haven't doing anything really... questionable... ever since 2.x. Seriously, they had the perfect opportunity to show they were loyal to the Empire in Stormblood as they are in Eorzea's backyard while all the Grand Companies were away in Gyr Abania and the XIVth Legion did... absolutely nothing. And they're still doing nothing except not causing Rex, Gaius and the WoL problems when Rex chooses to make Castrum Marinum the place for the showdown. Which... would have been another good opportunity for the XIVth Legion so show that they're loyal to the Empire and not... whatever (or whoever) they are actually loyal to.

At the very least, the XIVth Legion aren't being stupid about getting on the bad side of the people who are running the countries they are... essentially in exile in. There's native Eorzean groups that are causing more active problems than the XIVth Legion is, so... props to them for at least staying out of the way?

The VIth Legion is in a similar state, but we do know they are loyal to the Empire still and are sending information about Azys Lla back to it. They are just... stuck there though... They haven't gone AWOL like Gaius did with the XIVth Legion.

How much do we know about Nerva anyway?

I'm secretly hoping for him to not be manipulated by Fandaniel after all and find a way to one-up both Zenos and him... since no-one seems to think much of him at all. Kind of how I thought Varis had something up his sleeve... until he was simply killed.

We know that he exists, and might be a very young man—a particular side story mentions that Titus has no ready heir circa Kaien's rebellion. Nerva is Titus's son and thus Zenos's uncle, which makes this hard but not impossible to reconcile with him being the Legatus of the IIIrd Legion.

We also know that he is supposedly being backed for the throne by House Brutus. Finally, we know that Lyon, one of the top men of the IVth Legion, believes him to be "weak and a coward", and supports Gabranth's decision to abandon Garlemald instead of following Nerva's demand that they return to the capitol.

Besides the main force marooned in Azys Lla due to Ysayle-as-Shiva freezing the Gration's engines and disabling the airship permenantly, a smaller unit of the VIth legion remains also stuck in the Sea of Clouds where they've established a rudimentary encampment right in the heart of Vanu territory (presumedly they were the accompanying force Varis and Regula sent to attack the Vanu and which were accidentally left behind when Regula and Varis had to do a hasty retreat back to the Gration when Lucia showed up in her magitek armour with guns blazing. Now they're constantly being hassled by the Vanu (there's a FATE there which shows them battling the beastmen).

As for the VIIth, the original legion under Eulla-as-Nael van Darnus were mostly wiped out during the Battle of Cartenau (as they were basically zealots completely and fanatically obssessed with carrying out the will of their late Legatus so they basically fought to the death. Any survivors that managed to avoid being killed or incinerated by Bahamut ended up being absorbed into the XIVth as I understand it, so the legion was rendered completely extinct, until now of course.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

We know that he exists, and might be a very young man—a particular side story mentions that Titus has no ready heir circa Kaien's rebellion. Nerva is Titus's son and thus Zenos's uncle, which makes this hard but not impossible to reconcile with him being the Legatus of the IIIrd Legion.

We also know that he is supposedly being backed for the throne by House Brutus. Finally, we know that Lyon, one of the top men of the IVth Legion, believes him to be "weak and a coward", and supports Gabranth's decision to abandon Garlemald instead of following Nerva's demand that they return to the capitol.

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I'm kind of hoping this leads to Nerva turning out to be a more political type, or a tactician. Somebody who doesn't fight himself, but knows how to set the field to his advantage. It would explain why Lyon calls him weak and cowardly since Lyon lives for the fight. Nerva being more of a tactical mind type would work for giving Garlemald a leader who could possibly bring the country back from the brink. Think of the Solidor family from FF12 as an example. If he and Garlemald are going to be antagonists, he'll be the equivalent of Vayne Solidor. If the country is going to lean towards trying to become allies, he'll be more like Larsa Solidor.

I suppose I'll do a bit of a derail sorry, but have we ever met truly good people still allied entirely to Garlemald? We can't say Maxima because he's in exile right? Cid and Nero are turncoat and Gaius is still up in the air as far as his true allegiances. I hope Nerva or whatever legatus we meet in 6.0 can show Garlemald in a better light than it's been in since 1.0

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Originally Posted by Kiurai

I suppose I'll do a bit of a derail sorry, but have we ever met truly good people still allied entirely to Garlemald? We can't say Maxima because he's in exile right? Cid and Nero are turncoat and Gaius is still up in the air as far as his true allegiances. I hope Nerva or whatever legatus we meet in 6.0 can show Garlemald in a better light than it's been in since 1.0

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We know there are more moderate or even progressive Garleans in the Empire's ruling class, they call themselves the 'Populares' and were wanting to bring hostilities with other nations to a peaceful end (coexistance and independence for those nations wanting to be free of the Empire). It was this group that Maxima belonged to and was taking Alphinaud to meet with during SB's storyline. Alas though, they're something of a minority in Garlemald and naturally Elidibus-as-Zenos conspired to ensure Maxima and Alphinaud never made it to their destination (shooting down their airship over the Burn).

Irony of ironies though, it was that act that not only brought Gaius back into the picture (and revealed the whole Black Rose project the Empire was working on behind the scenes), it also revealed the prescence of the ancient Allagan forcefield generators in the Burn, which Hein and the Domans realized could be reactivated to form an impenetrable defense barrier that would basically cut the Empire off from Othard (or rather Othard's western flank) and so reduce the risk of Imperial forces mounting a counterattack against Doma to retake the newly liberated country. So, the Empire actually made their job of conquest harder with that one act of trying to strangle the Populares, so, nice job fixing it villain? :p

Either way, there definetely are benign Garleans still in the Empire and actively working for the betterment of their country (even Gaius still regards himself as a patriotic Garlean, but is outright resisting the government and military he once served), but alas their numbers would be pretty low (especially as it seems Varis initated some kind of purge of the Populares so if there was any survivors still holding to that ideology, they would probably be in hiding within Garlemald). We'll probably find out either way.

I am interested in seeing more sane Garlean aliened Garleans, but I highly doubt Nerva is going to be it.

House Brutus is specifically mentioned as backing him, and Fandaniel is just about the last person alive who would back a competent tactical minded leader who could stabilize the empire. That's basically the exact opposite of what he wants.

Nerva and Titus are pretty clearly being portrayed as another type of way Monarchies tend to suck. Nepotism, men who only got to where they are due to birth.

Though on the subject, it would be interesting if the I's legions Legatus ends up being important, they were fighting the III after all. Maybe they could be the sane uniter after everything falls apart.

Also, not for nothing but I want a female Legatus someday. (One that everyone knows is a girl, not pretending to be a man like Eula was)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

We know there are more moderate or even progressive Garleans in the Empire's ruling class, they call themselves the 'Populares' and were wanting to bring hostilities with other nations to a peaceful end (coexistance and independence for those nations wanting to be free of the Empire). It was this group that Maxima belonged to and was taking Alphinaud to meet with during ShB's storyline. Alas though, they're something of a minority in Garlemald and naturally Elidibus-as-Zenos conspired to ensure Maxima and Alphinaud never made it to their destination (shooting down their airship over the Burn).

Irony of ironies though, it was that act that not only brought Gaius back into the picture (and revealed the whole Black Rose project the Empire was working on behind the scenes), it also revealed the prescence of the ancient Allagan forcefield generators in the Burn, which Hein and the Domans realized could be reactivated to form an impenetrable defense barrier that would basically cut the Empire off from Othard (or rather Othard's western flank) and so reduce the risk of Imperial forces mounting a counterattack against Doma to retake the newly liberated country. So, the Empire actually made their job of conquest harder with that one act of trying to strangle the Populares, so, nice job fixing it villain? :p

Either way, there definetely are benign Garleans still in the Empire and actively working for the betterment of their country (even Gaius still regards himself as a patriotic Garlean, but is outright resisting the government and military he once served), but alas their numbers would be pretty low (especially as it seems Varis initated some kind of purge of the Populares so if there was any survivors still holding to that ideology, they would probably be in hiding within Garlemald). We'll probably find out either way.

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Pretty sure Fandaniel eludes that the Populares have been "taken care of" off screen. Its a nice sentiment to think of sympathetic Garleans, but given that the towers are tempering people to be loyal to the Empire there is probably no one left (albeit unwillingly) to help us if the expansion goes there. I know there is a lot of talk about Nerva, but until he physically walks into the story not tempered we have to assume the only untempered Garleans are Gaius, Maxima, and the other ex-pats.

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Originally Posted by Kiurai

I suppose I'll do a bit of a derail sorry, but have we ever met truly good people still allied entirely to Garlemald? We can't say Maxima because he's in exile right? Cid and Nero are turncoat and Gaius is still up in the air as far as his true allegiances. I hope Nerva or whatever legatus we meet in 6.0 can show Garlemald in a better light than it's been in since 1.0

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Depends on your definition of "truly good". We know there are people who have at least some semblance of conscience and morality, but most of the time when they're on-screen they have no power or desire to go against the monsters. And so there's the real-life ethics question of whether it's "good" to prioritize your own survival in the faint hope of enacting some change in the future (keeping your head down, following horrible orders), or to protest immediately in an effort to stop the current suffering, with the near-certainty that it will not help the situation, and indeed cause more harm by giving an excuse to crack down on like-minded allies, but at least your personal conscience is clean.

As an example, the pilots of the Weapons are the former. Are they good? Are they deluding themselves into thinking they're good? Has their remaining under the command of van Varro and abetting his atrocities been balanced out by the alleged reasoning of "at least fewer other victims will be involved"?

But speaking generally, Garlemald (and the story) has been systematically pushing out all the "good" Garlemald-aligned characters, turning them into defectors, exiles, or corpses. Even the rank-and-file soldiers are shown to be perfectly happy to desert at the earliest opportunity just to see their families again. Cid, Nero, the various engineers who defected to the Ironworks (including Biggs and Wedge), Lucia, Maxima and the Populares, the cast of the Prima Vista, so on and so forth. Meanwhile, Rhitatyn and Regula are dead, albeit while still believing in Garlemald.

I don't even know about Gaius, since he seems to mostly be against the current actions of Garlemald, but still believes in the social structure of the Garlean Empire, including the primacy of the Emperor. Which anyone even remotely familiar with political theory would know is like trying to excuse the atrocities by blaming them on "a few bad apples", while conveniently ignoring the rest of the proverb "spoils the whole barrel".

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

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IIRC, I remember reading a very, very long time ago that Nero is basically the acting commander of the XIVth Legion now? Although this could just be fan hearsay and not something actually mentioned in-game or in any of the lore books. Of course, Nero would much rather go on adventures with Cid. If he actually -is- officially recognized as leader of the XIVth Legion, it could be another possible explanation as to why nothing is really happening there. Nero clearly doesn't give a damn anymore, and Eorzea has no reason to possibly antagonize an ally by attacking his people now.

The VIth Legion is indeed stuck on Azys Lla and are indeed still loyal to the Empire. It's unlikely they plan to antagonize Eorzea from up there though, considering we DID team up with them to take down Zurvan and let them leave on good terms after the fact (Regula's body was stated to be going back to Garlemald, and I have a feeling that might end up coming into play soon). If they really wanted to, they would have probably secured the entire place by now, or to a point where they would have confronted us the few times we've come back on sidequests and during our most recent visit in the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

IIRC, I remember reading a very, very long time ago that Nero is basically the acting commander of the XIVth Legion now? Although this could just be fan hearsay and not something actually mentioned in-game or in any of the lore books. Of course, Nero would much rather go on adventures with Cid. If he actually -is- officially recognized as leader of the XIVth Legion, it could be another possible explanation as to why nothing is really happening there. Nero clearly doesn't give a damn anymore, and Eorzea has no reason to possibly antagonize an ally by attacking his people now.

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So in the event of the death of an army's leader, the 2nd-in-command would usually be the one put in charge until: they were promoted to the leader's position, or a new one was appointed by the government. Nero being the acting commander sounds like an assumption (a reasonable one btw) that would have been made back in the post 2.0 days, when we didn't know that Gaius went AWOL with the XIVth, we assumed he was dead, and Nero wasn't put into the Crystal Tower story. Now we know he abandoned the XIVth and assume the few pilus that remain were in charge.

I define good more as, Maxima or somewhat corrupt if it serves a greater good ala Lolorito but my standards of how far you can go differ from everyone's at the end of the day. I will say that I hope we see someone who supports populares like ideals or atleast more moderately minded,( the populares were gaining the support of the public in 4.3 before Elidibus' meddling if I remember correctly so who knows) we can work with, would be a shame to just tear down the empire when even our side has more shades of grey to it so far lol

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Originally Posted by Kiurai

I define good more as, Maxima or somewhat corrupt if it serves a greater good ala Lolorito but my standards of how far you can go differ from everyone's at the end of the day. I will say that I hope we see someone who supports populares like ideals or atleast more moderately minded,( the populares were gaining the support of the public in 4.3 before Elidibus' meddling if I remember correctly so who knows) we can work with, would be a shame to just tear down the empire when even our side has more shades of grey to it so far lol

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It's easy to have more shades of grey than the Garlean Empire, given the Garlean Empire is almost entirely terrible. The Empire is evil by design (as has been boasted about by Emet-Selch), almost fractally; it's evil to individuals, even under its alleged protection (what happened to Fordola's parents, which happened under the "decent Legatus" Gaius), it's evil to groups of people ("good" Regula was willing to wipe out the Vanu Vanu on Varis's orders), and it's evil to the Empire itself (as Emet-Selch carefully arranged, for maximum chaos).

I've been fairly careful and precise when I say the Garlean Empire needs to be torn down. This is completely different and distinct from saying that Garlemald needs to be torn down. The Garlean Empire has literally existed for only 55 years at this point, and it has already caused mass suffering and pain on three continents. Hence why "the empire", and more specifically the system of imperialism, must be destroyed and stopped. Garlemald itself is perfectly able to survive and even thrive as a non-Empire, given it has existed as a major polity for like 500 years before turning into an Empire. (Before anyone claims "oh but they were persecuted", that happened about a hundred years before Garlemald existed. Garlemald as a nation was formally founded after it had taken over all the territories and settlements in its vicinity.)

So Gaius automatically obeying the orders of Emperor Varis at the end of 5.0 is kind of puzzling, since that implies Gaius follows the ideals of the Empire, rather than of Garlemald. Maybe to him it's the same thing (he probably has only known about the Garlean Empire), but the Garlean Empire is only one of many possible political systems available for Garlemald, and given the sheer chaos it caused, I would say being an Empire is not a good thing.

(The obvious route would be returning to the Garlean Republic, but I figure it's also fine if they want to try other political systems. The Holy See of Garlemald, perhaps?)

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

(The obvious route would be returning to the Garlean Republic, but I figure it's also fine if they want to try other political systems. The Holy See of Garlemald, perhaps?)

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I've always seen pre-HW Ishgard as how the Garlean Empire actually was on their home terf, with post-HW showing what it could become. Depending on how the writers want to take Garlemald after the end of 6.3, it could either stay pre-HW Ishgard levels or could end up being elevated to post-HW. That of course depends on how things with the Empire go next expansion.

It's worth pointing out that Garlemald, the Republic, was around for 600 years before it became an Empire... and that it was onlywith Emet-Selch... basically sabotaging it by design that it became an Empire to begin with. So, somewhere there's some set of laws for what Garlemald's Republic was like... and those laws seemed to have more or less worked for a good long while. Taking Garlemald back to those probably wouldn't be the worst way to have Garlemald end up.

Pre-HW Ishgard was not a Republic. The people making all the decisions for Ishgard was the Four High Houses and the Church; it was very classiest with the richest people making decisions for everyone else (which is why Ishgard has so many stories about economic classes mixing not being a good thing). It is only in post-HW that Ishgard has become a Republic. So if anything... both Isghard and Ala Mhigo are following in the old Garleian Republic's footsteps with their governing styles. There's some irony there for you.

My thing with Gaius is... he really has no reason to know anything but the Garlean Empire's way of thinking, and yet somehow, he does. Doing the math shows he was born two years after Garlemald became an Empire and it would have been in an military expansionist state for his entire life. And I really don't want to think about what growing up in such an environment (think of the propaganda!) would have been like from a Garlean's pov when it comes to... basic things like human decency to people who aren't like you. I'm honestly more surprised that the biggest overall issue with Gaius is that he's culturalist rather than that he's racist. Because I legit don't know where he would have picked up the idea that racial differences don't make any real difference, but cultural differences do (the kicker being that cultural differences do matter, just not in the way Gaius thinks they do). The vast majority of other Garleans we meet are really racist and Gaius somehow isn't (anywhere near the degree they are at least). And Gaius is older than every Garlean we meet too (except Emet-Selch). If anything, you'd think he'd be worse about all of that stuff than the other Garleans we meet.

I honestly really want to find out more about Gaius' backstory before he became the Legatus of the XIVth Legion, since... he's not as bad as most other Garleans are in a way that makes me think something happened to him to make him think differently enough that he can be reasoned with at all. It's kind of like hearing about someone who grew up from childhood to adulthood in Nazi Germany but somehow didn't pick up on the idea that race mattered, but culture did. Which is to say, it makes me want to know how/why they came to that conclusion because that doesn't sound like what you'd expect to happen in that situation.

I feel like the republic governing model is still somewhat around, I doubt the emperor didn't heed some of the wills of the political parties that we know do exist, they have power and I'd expect that some ideals of the republic still exist. Ultimately, I'm not convinced that mass liberation and Garlean reformation will be the endgame I think reformation will happen but I can't see all the territories becoming independent that's like a power vaccum waiting to happen but hey idk just theories afterall

We do know from the Lore Books (the first one I think) that the Garlean Senate is still around and that it technically advises the Emperor. However, the reality of the situation is that the Emperor (Emet-Selch for most of this) and the military really have all the political power and the senate has... almost no political power anymore. As it is, we see the Legatai doing whatever the hell they want with people who are technically Garlean Citizens and Garlemald has been in a "make makes right" mentality for... over a generation by this point. It's going to take... a lot of work... to overturn that idea. Emet-Selch was ironically better than Varis (and certainly Zenos) was about this in a sense as Emet-Selch at least liked promoting the idea of the arts as a valid thing for Garleans to be into (and not even "approved" art at that). Varis... shut all that down in favor of a much more... militant... take on government as a whole. Hence why the Prima Vista ran to Hingashi in Stormblood...

There will undoubtedly be a power vacuum in Illsabard once the Garlean Empire goes under. In some respects, the provinces outside Illsabard are in better shape as they weren't conquered so recently they don't have an idea of what their own personal national ideals were before Garlemald took over and most of them want to go back to those in some size, shape or form. Conquering Illsabard was what caused Garlemald to declare itself an Empire in the first place, so... I'd expect at least some people in the conquered provinces to identify as culturally Garlean rather than whatever country they used to be. And that's not even getting into all the Garleans (racial or cultural) that would have been born outside of the Garleand homeland. The absolute worst thing that could happen would be if the conquered countries wanted to conquer Garlemald itself in turn as payback for being conquered (think the Treaty of Versailles after WWI and the economic mess that made of Germany). Either way, there's no way there isn't going to be a political mess in Illsabard to sort through once the Empire finally collapses.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

My thing with Gaius is... he really has no reason to know anything but the Garlean Empire's way of thinking, and yet somehow, he does. Doing the math shows he was born two years after Garlemald became an Empire and it would have been in an military expansionist state for his entire life. And I really don't want to think about what growing up in such an environment (think of the propaganda!) would have been like from a Garlean's pov when it comes to... basic things like human decency to people who aren't like you. I'm honestly more surprised that the biggest overall issue with Gaius is that he's culturalist rather than that he's racist. Because I legit don't know where he would have picked up the idea that racial differences don't make any real difference, but cultural differences do (the kicker being that cultural differences do matter, just not in the way Gaius thinks they do). The vast majority of other Garleans we meet are really racist and Gaius somehow isn't (anywhere near the degree they are at least). And Gaius is older than every Garlean we meet too (except Emet-Selch). If anything, you'd think he'd be worse about all of that stuff than the other Garleans we meet.

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It may be how he was raised. If the writers wanted to throw an explanation, it simply could be that he was raised by a family retainer who was not Garlean, which would eliminate racial differences in his mind. Cultural differences makes sense, considering how engraved certain things can be in cultures. Look at how deeply faith in the elementals is rooted in Gridania, compared to the free spirit of Limsa and the "money means everything" culture of Ul'dah.

Also the empires overall idea they like to sell is everyone can get a piece of the imperial pie if they worked at hard enough, only for most garleans to abuse this. Maybe gaius gained more knowledge into how unfair the system is to non garleans through his habit of adopting orphans regardless of their birth, it'd be interesting to see a young gaius and if there were any experiences that shaped his world view, or perhaps he just thought more logically about the empires ideals while most would abuse the system once they gain some form of power. We also have seen little of the populares side and there are some legatus' in that camp so not all of them would be racists, just the ones we've seen so far...but then they could be just as racist, just against expansionism.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

My thing with Gaius is... he really has no reason to know anything but the Garlean Empire's way of thinking, and yet somehow, he does. Doing the math shows he was born two years after Garlemald became an Empire and it would have been in an military expansionist state for his entire life. And I really don't want to think about what growing up in such an environment (think of the propaganda!) would have been like from a Garlean's pov when it comes to... basic things like human decency to people who aren't like you. I'm honestly more surprised that the biggest overall issue with Gaius is that he's culturalist rather than that he's racist. Because I legit don't know where he would have picked up the idea that racial differences don't make any real difference, but cultural differences do (the kicker being that cultural differences do matter, just not in the way Gaius thinks they do). The vast majority of other Garleans we meet are really racist and Gaius somehow isn't (anywhere near the degree they are at least). And Gaius is older than every Garlean we meet too (except Emet-Selch). If anything, you'd think he'd be worse about all of that stuff than the other Garleans we meet.

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It's worth considering that Solus DID include provisions for allowing the "lesser races" a way to rise to success in Garlean society, which implies that he sees some value in them. In reality, it was probably to keep conquered nations pacified, and to encourage loyalty in the ranks of the conscripts since military participation was one way to earn citizenship. Uniform oppression allowing no hope aside from rebellion pretty much guarantees rebellion - but allowing a portion of the conquered to live in comfort ensures that the country remains divided and much easier to control. While it's very likely that Solus encouraged a culture of racial superiority, he did it in SUBTLE ways. He likely never encouraged his troops to torment the conquered; they did that on their own. Instead, he did things like limit the levels to which non-Garleans could rise in society ('sas' is the highest rank a non-Garlean could achieve, a rank held by Rhitahtyn before his death) - the very fact that a limit exists implies without outright stating that Garleans are the superior race.

Gaius, on the other hand, could well have taken Solus's ideals at face value - the fact that there is a limit to their advancement is not as important as the fact that they're able to advance at all. He might have seen this as indication that Solus saw the potential for greatness in the lesser races, and could well have incorporated that into his own philosophies. It is unlikely that he was unaware of the racism and cruelties perpetrated by other Garleans (even if the sadly sub-par writing of the Werlyt stories implies that yes, he really was blind to it all), but held himself to a higher standard, and a standard he believed the Emperor held to as well. He probably considered leniency to the racists to be a necessary evil; purging them all now would leave the military too weak to properly conquer the other nations that needed conquering. But once that task was finished and all or most of the world was under Garlean rule, there would be ample opportunity to bring folks in line.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

I honestly really want to find out more about Gaius' backstory before he became the Legatus of the XIVth Legion, since... he's not as bad as most other Garleans are in a way that makes me think something happened to him to make him think differently enough that he can be reasoned with at all. It's kind of like hearing about someone who grew up from childhood to adulthood in Nazi Germany but somehow didn't pick up on the idea that race mattered, but culture did. Which is to say, it makes me want to know how/why they came to that conclusion because that doesn't sound like what you'd expect to happen in that situation.

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It's really not that much of a stretch, considering that the Garlean Empire is heavily based on the Roman Empire. On paper, ethnicity didn't matter to the Romans. The only thing that matters is where or not you're Roman. In reality, things were a lot more complicated to say the very least... But considering that Gaius has shown to have a very idealized view of the Empire, it's likely that he genuinely believed that you can "civilize the barbarian". It's also worth noting that even though he's a complete sociopath, Zenos doesn't care about race either. So I don't think that the idea of "culture not race" is that alien to the Garleans. It's just that pure-blood Garleans hold a lot of power and like most people in positions of authority, their primary goal is to keep other people from rising up.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It is unlikely that he was unaware of the racism and cruelties perpetrated by other Garleans (even if the sadly sub-par writing of the Werlyt stories implies that yes, he really was blind to it all).

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He has acknowledged the racial prejudice in ARR when he chastises his men for "abandoning" Rhitahtyn and his first assumption was that it was because of his birth. Another detail is gaius' legion likely encouraged other races more than most so he at least attempted to build his legion around his values but as we've been shown many garleans within that chain of command abuse their position over 'lesser' races behind gaius' back.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

He has acknowledged the racial prejudice in ARR when he chastises his men for "abandoning" Rhitahtyn and his first assumption was that it was because of his birth. Another detail is gaius' legion likely encouraged other races more than most so he at least attempted to build his legion around his values but as we've been shown many garleans within that chain of command abuse their position over 'lesser' races behind gaius' back.

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Which becomes much less impressive when we have the IVth Legion as another example now.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Which becomes much less impressive when we have the IVth Legion as another example now.

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The IVth is the most interesting and fleshed out legion so far but It feels cheapened by the fact it's breaking the rules established in the lore that non garleans can't be legates. I'm hoping for some kind of explanation that makes sense cause it seems like a lazy retcon, especially when it's implied to be the case even before garlemald was officially classed as an empire.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

The IVth is the most interesting and fleshed out legion so far but It feels cheapened by the fact it's breaking the rules established in the lore that non garleans can't be legates. I'm hoping for some kind of explanation that makes sense cause it seems like a lazy retcon, especially when it's implied to be the case even before garlemald was officially classed as an empire.

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Considering it was allowed, that likely means that Emperor Solus himself was so impressed with Gabranth to do so. What he did to impress the Emperor is likely going to be echo fodder within the remainder of the Save The Queen storyline.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

The IVth is the most interesting and fleshed out legion so far but It feels cheapened by the fact it's breaking the rules established in the lore that non garleans can't be legates. I'm hoping for some kind of explanation that makes sense cause it seems like a lazy retcon, especially when it's implied to be the case even before garlemald was officially classed as an empire.

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I think the limiting rule is Garlean citizenship, not race. As all Garlean conscripts are offered citizenship after 10 years of loyal service. So by serving faithfully can grant citizenship and then by extension allow for promotion to legates.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I think the limiting rule is Garlean citizenship, not race. As all Garlean conscripts are offered citizenship after 10 years of loyal service. So by serving faithfully can grant citizenship and then by extension allow for promotion to legates.

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The bio blurb for Asahi in the second lorebook says that his rank of "sas" is "the highest achievable by provincial citizens". "Province", when uses in the lore, has consistently meant the territories conquered by Garlemald after they became an Empire. (An example is Rhitatyn's blurb in the first lorebook.)

So even citizens who are not "Garlean" can only rise to the rank of "sas".

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The bio blurb for Asahi in the second lorebook says that his rank of "sas" is "the highest achievable by provincial citizens". "Province", when uses in the lore, has consistently meant the territories conquered by Garlemald after they became an Empire. (An example is Rhitatyn's blurb in the first lorebook.)

So even citizens who are not "Garlean" can only rise to the rank of "sas".

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Though that does lead to a good question...was the Garlean Empire only called that AFTER the Republic of Landis was conquered? Or were the rules put in place after it was conquered? If so, does that mean they were allowed due to already having been citizens of the empire prior to the naming/rules?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Though that does lead to a good question...was the Garlean Empire only called that AFTER the Republic of Landis was conquered? Or were the rules put in place after it was conquered? If so, does that mean they were allowed due to already having been citizens of the empire prior to the naming/rules?

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Garlemald officially became an empire after it conquered every nation on Ilsabard, which I believe inclides Landis. As for which rules were in place during the republic? We can only guess, I'm interested in learning more about republican Garlemald and how it differed from it's current form.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Garlemald officially became an empire after it conquered every nation on Ilsabard, which I believe inclides Landis. As for which rules were in place during the republic? We can only guess, I'm interested in learning more about republican Garlemald and how it differed from it's current form.

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Definitely, yeah. I keep wondering how far the parallels to the Romans go, since we know Garlemald was deliberately modelled after at least some parts of it.

For example, the shift from the Late Roman Republic into the Roman Empire was not really that major, since the Roman Republic had been conquering and enslaving territories as a matter of course, and instituted the post of Dictator (which Garlemald theoretically still has, in the rank of "iyl") which was effectively imperial anyway. So it's conceivable that the Garlean Republic immediately before Solus was not that different from the Garlean Empire.

However, I also get the impression Garlemald isn't that analogous to Rome, in that I don't think we've heard about the equivalent of how Rome kept sending generals out to conquer territory, and then the generals went back home to try to conquer Rome itself, and this kept happening over and over again. I don't think that happened to the Republic of Garlemald, since it would presumably be a major enough event to warrant mention.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

However, I also get the impression Garlemald isn't that analogous to Rome, in that I don't think we've heard about the equivalent of how Rome kept sending generals out to conquer territory, and then the generals went back home to try to conquer Rome itself, and this kept happening over and over again. I don't think that happened to the Republic of Garlemald, since it would presumably be a major enough event to warrant mention.

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Or it happens so often it isn't worth reporting, or is just a small footnote in the historical record. Also, haven't the Garleans fought two civil wars off screen in the current timeline of the game?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Or it happens so often it isn't worth reporting, or is just a small footnote in the historical record. Also, haven't the Garleans fought two civil wars off screen in the current timeline of the game?

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True. On the one hand, we did hear of those civil wars around the time they happened (in 2.x and 5.x).

On the other hand, we heard of them mostly by what the consequences of the civil wars were for Eorzea, which I think might not apply to the civil wars of Rome, which were basically the generals wanting to be in charge and the Senators eventually (after varying amounts of bloodshed) going "yeah, okay", and then it was business as usual. So I can imagine the news of the Garlean Republic being mostly "they had a civil war and a new Dictator, so update your diplomatic correspondences" and little else.