Healers were homogenized a lot during 5.0 Likely as a way to help with the design and development of the very unconfirmed but very likely 4th healer we’ll get in 6.0. Here’s what I thought for giving each healer more identity during the next expansion. Feel free to nitpick numbers. I didn't spend too much time on them.
WHM — Keep 'em vanilla.
Same DoT. Same spammable cast. Bump Misery up to 1000 potency so its more than just a catch-up GCD. For 6.0, give them another on-GCD 60-second cooldown that does 450 potency and call it day. WHM stays the straight-forward big-numbers but lower DPS class of the healers.
SCH — Double down on DoTs
Same spammable cast. For 6.0, reintroduce Miasma as a 30 second 60-potency DoT. Additionally, give SCH an on-GCD 45-second cooldown that’s a combo of Fester and Iron Jaws. Resets DoT timers and deals 250 potency if suffering from one DoT or 500 potency if suffering from both. Keeping cooldown longer than DoT timers requires SCH to put dots back up manually every minute. SCH is the militarist and strategist. Hopefully a 2nd DoT and Fester/Iron Jaw-like action adds to that identity.
AST — Cards are in. DoTs are out.
Get your pitchforks and torches and caps lock ready for this. Drop Combust. WHAT?! Let cards be the identity and the thing AST does every 30 seconds instead.
This is easier said than done. Today, you can get one Lord/Lady in before the 2nd Divination so there isn’t much room to use cards for other things. I suggest reducing the Seal Gauge from three to two seals and only having Lunar and Solar seals would help. Divination gives 3% boost for one seal, 6% for two. So now that there’s some room to use cards towards other stuff, reintroduce Royal Road but with new effect. It still requires burning a drawn card but now increases direct hit rate of nearby party members by 10% for 15 seconds. Off-GCD. 60 second cooldown.
Healer DPS Identity Ideas for 6.0
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12-01-2020, 08:43 AMLeftHandedLionHealer DPS Identity Ideas for 6.0
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12-01-2020, 09:08 AMKabooa
I think you should remove "Identity" from the post title.
These are all just fine, but when you're just doing more of the same, taking literal copy-pastas from other jobs, or reducing the in-job mechanic demands, it doesn't strike me as a call for identity. These just seem like fairly generic expansions to the basic kit, and while that could be argued as "Identity" improvements, I'd put it in the same camp as Red Mage's aoe changes this expansion. -
12-01-2020, 09:36 AMSemirhageWe're still doing this then? I guess we're still doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftHandedLion
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12-01-2020, 09:58 AMGrimoire-MSeems so. Heaven forbid we dare ask for a moderate amount of depth in -all four healers-.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
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12-01-2020, 10:15 AMLiam_Harper
Give WhM Cure, Big Cure (aoe) and Glare and call it a day? Got to keep that pants-on-head, so simple your cat can play it by falling asleep on the keyboard, identity.
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12-01-2020, 02:01 PMglamazon
WHM
Big heals. Big Damage. Have lilies have a heal if used on allies and a damage burst if used on enemies.
AST
Cards need to have more than just dmg buff. Add run speed buff. Add mitigation buff. Make lord a buff for melee make lady for range 10%. Turn undraw into a dmg ability that does big dmg but you lose cards for thirty seconds or a minute
SCH
Add another dot. Add fairy charm to Selene so she can turn an enemy mob against the pack. Or let Selene cast regen and rod cast direct heals. Something to differentiate them. -
12-01-2020, 05:20 PMYusiKha
Give White Mage a buff to upkeep like Enochian (maybe call it Cleric Stance?). It would start as being an instant GCD on like a 60s timer, then you can occasionally upkeep it with Holy (after say 20s in CS Holy becomes Holier).
In the 50-60 level range, Cleric Stance upgraded to ‘Ascendance’, and your Conjurer spells (Stone, Aero) are replaced with White Magic versions.
Eventually, you’ll be able to have 100% uptime in Ascendance.
This alongside skills that manipulate it (such as finishers, Ascendance extenders, maybe skills that are stronger outside of Ascendance so you want to drop it for a few seconds?) could make WHM an engaging class to optimise while being fairly simple for people to faceroll.
SCH DoTs with new names - vitriol, fervent, meltdown, etc.
AST a blackjack-like gambling game with the chance to burst or bust, with powerful skills like Luminaire and Dark Matter taken from Chrono Trigger as the reward. -
12-01-2020, 05:48 PMAbsurdityThe part about lower DPS is bothering me the most...let's not do a Stormblood again, k thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
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12-01-2020, 07:51 PMRecon1o6
Is this a joke?
Whm are still going to be sat around casting glare. Unacceptable
Ast's would be crippled in msq solo duties. -
12-01-2020, 08:28 PMSeraphor
The general direction isn't too bad, but the ideas here range from too extreme to too mild.
Reduce the potency of Combust by all means, in order to increase the potency of Card buffs.
Add in an additional effect, all cards used on yourself grant you the full effect of a Lady of Crowns. This won't be more effective than using them on the correct DPS, but it provides an alternative for when there's no Melee/Ranged DPS in the party and makes up for the Combust nerf in solo duties.
Add in SCH DoTs and skills that interact with them again please.
Miasma, reintroduced as an OGCD DoT. 30s duration on a 60s cooldown.
Ruin II upgraded to Meltdown: 240 potency and increases damage received by target by any DoTs inflicted by 10% for 15s.
WHM should remain the direct DPS healer, but it can go further than just sticking with what it's got. Give it an Astral Fire analogue, in that Glares can build off each other to increase potencies.
Perhaps every time you cast Glare you get a stack of Resplendence, this lasts for 5s, increases your damaging potency by 3% and can stack up to 3 times to a maximum of 15s/9%. Allowing you to 'bank' up to three Glares to allow you to GCD heal up to three times without losing the buff.
Basically in a 15s 'burst' window, you can Glarex3, Afflatusx3 (or Cure's/more Glares if you've already fed the blood lily) and get your boosted Misery out.
Then add in a skill that transfers your stacks of Resplendence to all nearby party members, which increases their healing received by the same percentage/duration remaining. -
12-01-2020, 10:12 PMAnotherPersonYour thinking is flawed. If you advocate WHM and SCH getting skills to make their DPS go up / introduce complex DPS options, but then nerf AST's combust and make them get a special buff only when they card themselves to make up for the combust DPS nerf, then they really haven't been buffed in solo duties since their overall damage from the combust nerf and card buff will average out back to the same - making ASTs still horrendous to play in solo duties. There's also no point in carding yourself multiple times either since the buffs will overwrite each other and all you'll be doing is still spamming one single button over and over again until the next card window.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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12-01-2020, 10:14 PMSeraphorHow is that any different to spamming one single button over and over until you need to refresh your DoT?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
Draw comes off cooldown as each card effect runs out, the only exception being Sleeve Draw.
The difference is the 'DoT' alternative has a management aspect to it, to get your three seals.
AST already has the most interesting DPS rotation out of the healers, even with the ShB simplification to the card effects. If the cards are regarded as a DoT analogue (a repeated action on a medium cooldown of 30s that results in sustained damage contribution) then AST already has 2 functional DoTs, while SCH only has one...
I did say increase the card buffs.
If the increase in card buffs matches the decrease in Combust in a solo situation, then when applied to a party, that increase in card buffs will be a net buff in damage contribution.
AST, just like every other job, can manage existing solo duties just fine, the goal is merely not to reduce their solo damage, which is what I've proposed.
If each healers personal DPS kit is going to be balanced with each other, then Cards are only going to see their effects nerfed time and time again. Thus to find away to capitalise on Cards as the AST's identity, they need to be incorporated into their personal DPS. -
12-01-2020, 10:21 PMAnotherPersonIncreasing the card buffs still doesn't do anything to the monotonous gameplay itself. You're still using the same nuke and DoT which is the issue I'm raising with your suggestion. It's still boring to take AST in Solo duties for that very reason. There is no 'DoT' management when playing AST, especially not in a solo duty because it's just reapply combust every 30 seconds and card yourself before nuking the enemy with malefic. Rinse and repeat every 30 seconds. Until then you just fish for your 2nd seal and third seal between redraws and hold it until your current buff expires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Also, combust nerf + card buff = made up for combust nerf, but didn't add anything extra to the table for solo duties while the other two jobs get more DPS options since the amount of DPS increased is still low enough that it isn't worth carding yourself in a regular duty as opposed to carding the other DPS. -
12-01-2020, 10:25 PMSeraphorAnd yet this is already twice as interesting as either of the other two healers...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
You have two 'functional' DoTs, one of which has an entire side system for managing seals and powering up your largest party buff Divination.
The other two (one of which is characterised as the 'DoT healer') only have one DoT.
AST is absolutely fine where it is, it just needs to capitalise on its cards more. -
12-01-2020, 10:42 PMAnotherPersonI'm not arguing that SCH should get its DoTs, but if you have ever taken the three healers into solo duties, you'll see the difference in how they preform the solo duties pretty easily and how AST's already terrible personal DPS won't have any change in solo duties with what you just proposed since all you did was move combust's DPS into the cards. AST's card changes only benefits in parties, which means you still wouldn't want to play them in solo duties. If you ever did solo specific content with the healers, such as HoH solo, it would be very evident that there's no actual change to doing AST in solo duties to what you proposed. And no, you don't have two functional DoTs as an AST. ASTs have a separate system to manage, but saying a card buff & Divination is like a second DoT is like telling Nin that Trick Attack is a DoT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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12-01-2020, 11:08 PMSeraphorThe cards are a semi-permanent increase in damage. Keeping them up is functionally the same as keeping up a DoT to increase your sustained damage. When it comes off cooldown/runs out, you replace it. Sustained damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
And yeah, if NIN had to refresh Trick Attack every 30s to get 15s of passively increased damage, it would be functionally similar to a DoT. Once you math all of this out, it's all just damage dealt, what matters is how you deal it, and refreshing a cooldown is refreshing a cooldown.
The reason why AST struggles comparatively in solo duties, is because a large portion of its damage is relegated to party buffs. Healers are balanced in a party setting.
In order to strengthen AST in solo duties, you have to weaken its party buffs, and I don't think cards can afford to get any weaker.
Therefore you need to pair the two aspects up, the party buffs need to translate into something that can help increase AST's solo damage, without compromising party balance.
Therefore: All cards bestow the effect of Lady of Crowns when used on yourself.
The benefit of this is that you no longer have to choose between a 4% or 8% buff to your damage, and you don't have to choose between Minor Arcana or Divination, you can use all base cards on yourself, get the seals, and get your Divination, while still getting 8% from every card.
Secondly, if you want to strengthen the identity of AST, you need to invest more in their Cards.
Obviously that would come at the cost of their personal DPS, because healers have to be balanced.
Yes these two aspects appear to be in conflict with one another, but that's why they'd have to be done in tandem to work. Lets try some figures out:
Malefic IV: 250 pot per GCD
Combust: 60x10=600 pot per 30s
Cards: 3-8% damage increase depending on card
DPS spam over 30s with two card uses therefore equates to 250x12 + 60x10 +3-8% = 3708-3888 total potency, average 3798 potency.
Lets say you reduced Combust by 10 potency, and increase Card buffs to 4/5/8/10% instead, and installed the effect I mentioned earlier guaranteeing Lady effect.
Malefic IV: 250 pot per GCD
Combust: 50x10=500 pot per 30s
Cards: 10% damage increase
DPS spam over 30s equates to 250x12 + 50x10 +10% Lady of Crowns = 3850 total potency.
You make it more consistent, plus you get your Divination on top every 120s.
This results in AST getting a net buff in party settings, similar to the buffs the other two healers would get, but it doesn't make it any worse at solo duties, which would otherwise be the case of any buffs to the card system. -
12-02-2020, 12:13 AMAnotherPersonAll you just did was just made AST's personal DPS unaffected by fishing for card buffs. Also, your math is off, a card buff only lasts for 15 seconds. Secondly, in order to guarantee a seal, ASTs have to wait around 1 GCD for the game to recognize the player is in combat before giving themselves a card, or otherwise AST won't get a seal. Finally, Combust costs a GCD, so you get 11 malefics out in 30 seconds and getting a combust within the buff window means instead of 6 malefics, you get 5 malefics + 1 Combust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Under the assumption you don't get combust within the buff window:
So your damage over 30 seconds is actually 250 + 60x10 + 250*6*(1.03 to 1.08) + 250*4 = 3395 to 3470 => averaging out to 3432.5
So your damage over 30 seconds with proposed changes is 250 + 50x10 + 250*6*(1.1) + 250*4 = 3400
Under the assumption you get combust within the buff window:
So your previous damage over 30 seconds is actually 250 + (60x10 + 250*5)*(1.03 to 1.08) + 250*5 = 3405.5 to 3498=> averaging out to 3451.75
So your damage over 30 seconds with proposed changes is 250 + (50x10 + 250*5)*(1.1) + 250*5 = 3425
Generally that means their DPS don't drop as much (even though it dropped on average fishing), but that's also the problem. They haven't actually Improved in solo duties either while the other two jobs are getting extra DPS options that would imply their damage would improve as a result. -
12-02-2020, 12:58 AMRecon1o6
At the end of the day, it doesn't change the fact that balance is not as important as how fun it is. You can change numbers around quickly but making the playstyle fun is harder. Jobs will never be numerically identical.
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12-02-2020, 01:18 AMSeraphorI said two cards. With Sleeve draw you can pop one after the other has run out. It was an example of a 30s 'burst', hence why I said you'd also have Divination on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
Why do they need to improve? They just need to not be any worse while still improving their identity as a party buffer.
All jobs can manage solo duties just fine.
My suggestion was about solving the buff-pdps balance conundrum while not making solo duties worse. -
12-02-2020, 04:58 AMSemirhageEeeeeeeeeeh I remember solo duties as a healer back in Stormblood. And while clearing them was easy enough, they had a tendency to bleed together into "Here's a miniboss, dodge ground AOEs while Stone Stone Stone Bonk Bonk Bonk Bonk Bonk Bonk..." That's manageable, but dear god is it not exactly fun. That's both on healer damage kit design and solo duty design though; we all know solo duties are designed purely around the DPS jobs while the tanks and healers can spam their boring single target rotations a few hundred times until they wake up for that anticlimactic clear. Lowest common denominator, yadda yadda, I get it- every job can do damage, while not every job can tank or heal, so they have to design solo duties to be clearable by all job types. Screw it. If I have to suffer through slowly bonking Zenos down for the fourth time using one damage spell over and over again, DPSers can get a duty action boring Cure 2 button and heal some NPCs with it. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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12-02-2020, 06:04 AMKabooaIt never ceases to amaze me how much ya'll seem to think DPS classes enjoy the solo duties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
They suck on every job. -
12-02-2020, 10:52 AMAnotherPersonSo... on the chance that you don't have sleeve draw up because sleeve draw has a 180 second cooldown after being used once (which is essentially once every 6 draws), you go DPS negative even if you play properly and never miss a malefic. No thanks. If AST's role is to be a party buffer, that's fine (which is why malefic does 250 compared to Broil and Glare) but what you suggested did not Improve the feel of playing the job in solo duties at all. Of course all jobs can manage solo duties fine but there's literally no reason for the job to not FEEL good to play in solo duties because the gain is so marginal. And no, that doesn't solve the buff pdps balance conundrum because if AST's cards get even more buffed, then it becomes even more difficult for devs to balance buffs on a party since buffs stack changes damage output more significantly - there's a reason why Bard's mage ballad gives 1% damage boost for 30 seconds, army's paeon gives 3% direct hit rate, and wanderer's minuet gives 2% crit hit rate when bards were known for their support play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
I enjoy solo duties on DPS classes. Unlocking Bozja the first time while fighting Bahamut as a SMN before you get the whole squad? Definitely fun. Fighting things as Nin with its burst windows since solo duties make NIN feel like an assassin with how fast Nin can drop the enemies' HP? Also fun. Spamming Broil or Art of War on SCH until something dies because you don't need to use majority of your healing kit to pass the instance? Definitely not fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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12-02-2020, 11:16 AMSemirhageI've done solo duties on both healer and DPS. They were kinda boring on DPS. They were unbelievably boring on healer. I chalk a lot of the tedium up to designing the MSQ to be basically impossible to fail; change that design and it'd be fun for DPS. Still boring for healers and tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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12-03-2020, 12:42 AMForteNightshadeAhem!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Seriously. The solo duties, be it on our character or the Scions are dreadfully boring from a gameplay perspective. I didn't mind the novelty of it at first but like usually, when the dev team comes up with a new idea they over use it. Spamming 111111111111111111111111111111 on Thancred is sleep inducing. Which is sad since the whole scene itself is a highlight as far as his character goes. -
12-03-2020, 03:42 AMAbsurdityIt's especially bad on the Scion parts. They significantly overestimated how "fun" playing a story character with an even more limited ability kit is. Thancred is probably the most notable example since they overtuned the boss' HP which made the boring gameplay even more obvious and turned the whole thing into a slog.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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12-03-2020, 01:10 PMCharganium
I would like to see an oGCD damage ability for AST with 3 charges and a short cooldown. Weaving things after Malefic is fun so they should double down on it.