Naoki Yoshida: Can we get an extreme trials roulette please?

This would be awesome. I think it would be a nice addition to our current roulettes. The new Unreal fights are are a superb idea and I wish extreme content was more readily available. There are a lot of excellently designed/fun fights that a lot of players ignore since it isn't current content or part of a roulette system.

I use the mentor roulette in hopes that I get extreme trials so I can have the fun of doing fights with first timers. Party finder is great, but practice parties are rare once content has been out for awhile. I think if this content was more normalized (e.g. added to a roulette that people frequent) a lot of the stigma of them being intimidating would subside and players would get to experience a lot more fun fights on a regular basis. Plus I totally want to spend 99% of my time spamming this queue.

Anyways, thanks for the awesome game,
My regards to the team!

oof no thanks, i accidentally qued for Ramuh EX as a sprout and it was miserable. And truth be told i dont remember much of their old mechs

This is one of the changes that I could DEFINITELY get behind, the only real issue being 60m timer would need to be doubled, at least for the roulette to be realistic for a lot of people, and then accommodate that the rewards would need to be quite significant to incentivize people to do it. But for me personally, it'd be great

Would never work, and would only be a detriment to everyone else who does NOT want it in the game. Without a HUGE reward nobody would do it, the queue times would be impossibly long, and if there were ANY unique rewards tied to it at all, the majority of the people you would be teamed up with are going to be people who don't want to be there, hate the fight and hate themselves for doing it. Just like what you find in EX fights that mentors get sucked into nowadays. High-end roulette just don't work on a basic level and if you want a proper experience you're just gonna have to find a PF or discord for it and be patient, just like any other unorthodox game play objective.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

oof no thanks, i accidentally qued for Ramuh EX as a sprout and it was miserable. And truth be told i dont remember much of their old mechs

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don't que for it then :)

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

Would never work, and would only be a detriment to everyone else who does NOT want it in the game. Without a HUGE reward nobody would do it, the queue times would be impossibly long, and if there were ANY unique rewards tied to it at all, the majority of the people you would be teamed up with are going to be people who don't want to be there, hate the fight and hate themselves for doing it. Just like what you find in EX fights that mentors get sucked into nowadays. High-end roulette just don't work on a basic level and if you want a proper experience you're just gonna have to find a PF or discord for it and be patient, just like any other unorthodox game play objective.

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no it can work , none of what you said is a reason to why they shouldn't do it
if they place rewards you want behind this roulette just do it and get what you want, easy
if you don't want to deal with randoms , don't do it or go with a pre made from PF or whatever

This would really never work. My guess of the number of players currently knowing even a handful of the mechs of the older Ex trials is way below 1%. You can the desaster when queuing for Mentor Roulette and getting one of the Ex trials. This would be content for very few players and without hefty rewards nobody would queue for it anyway.

This would probably work out fine in Japan, but would be a total dumpster fire in the US.

Would be nice + bigger rewards

It's a cool idea, but it wouldn't mix well with our playerbase. There's no reward that would incentivize the time spent that you couldn't get by running other, simpler stuff in less time.

The roulette also would not be unlocked by very many people, because not many newbies even bother unlocking old extremes, let alone doing them.

Hence why they're pushing out old extremes in Unreals.

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Originally Posted by YISUG

no it can work , none of what you said is a reason to why they shouldn't do it
if they place rewards you want behind this roulette just do it and get what you want, easy
if you don't want to deal with randoms , don't do it or go with a pre made from PF or whatever

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It would "work" only in the sense that the devs could easily put it into the game as a functional roulette that wouldn't crash the game or something. The problem is not enough people would ever do it, no matter the rewards, to make the queue times reasonable. The rare occasions you did get in, you would almost certainly be stuck with a wipefest of unprepared/unwilling participants. The ONLY way you could ever get into it and reasonably clear it would be to find a pre-made group of 8 people....which completely defeats the purpose of it. (ie, if you have 8 competent people willing to do a synced EX trial...then just do a synced EX trial)

There would be nothing but wipes left and right. And most likely would be removed quickly due to negative feedback from players.

Roulette are essentially treated as a quick "chore list" for people to readily cap their tomes each week. That attracts a demographic simply not equip to handle synced EX fights even if the rewards were somehow decent. Speaking of, they'd have to offer something like 300+ current tomes to even remotely attract people. And I don't think even then most would bother. I can cap within two hours simply by jumping on a hunt train. Why would I want to do Seat of Sacrifice or Hades EX and risk wasting my time for nothing? Additionally, EXs have a ilvl sync. You can all but guarantee people will cheese the queue to force Titania or Innocence, which can be steamrolled at this point. You mention Mentor Roulette yet how often do you see people immediately bail on Ramuh, Titan or just repeatedly wipe?

All in all, there is no way for them to incentivize an EX Roulette enough to make it worthwhile. I guarantee if it were ever implemented, you'd be waiting in queue for hours.

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Originally Posted by NitsuLeviathan

This would be awesome. I think it would be a nice addition to our current roulettes. The new Unreal fights are are a superb idea and I wish extreme content was more readily available. There are a lot of excellently designed/fun fights that a lot of players ignore since it isn't current content or part of a roulette system.

I use the mentor roulette in hopes that I get extreme trials so I can have the fun of doing fights with first timers. Party finder is great, but practice parties are rare once content has been out for awhile. I think if this content was more normalized (e.g. added to a roulette that people frequent) a lot of the stigma of them being intimidating would subside and players would get to experience a lot more fun fights on a regular basis. Plus I totally want to spend 99% of my time spamming this queue.

Anyways, thanks for the awesome game,
My regards to the team!

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I really want a way to queue up with people to do extreme trials that doesn’t require me bowing to elitist scum to join their precious maxed out dps, no mistakes bs. Less gate keeping, more content. Make it happen. NOW. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

It would "work" only in the sense that the devs could easily put it into the game as a functional roulette that wouldn't crash the game or something. The problem is not enough people would ever do it, no matter the rewards, to make the queue times reasonable. The rare occasions you did get in, you would almost certainly be stuck with a wipefest of unprepared/unwilling participants. The ONLY way you could ever get into it and reasonably clear it would be to find a pre-made group of 8 people....which completely defeats the purpose of it. (ie, if you have 8 competent people willing to do a synced EX trial...then just do a synced EX trial)

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had no issues queuing up for regular ex trails on my alt on crystal at level 50 wearing ilvl 110 equipment. this was within the past couple of weeks. The only time I had to wait any godly amount of time was for a regular ifrit ex and that was like 30 minutes . I also suspect it was quicker because as crystal has a ton of preferred servers. Never had anyone bail or anything on ifrit, that hardest part was getting people to stack when they had chains on them and teaching the tanks how to tank swap. Once we got that down its easy peasy. Ifrit EX was the only run we had where people wiped left and right. But in the end everyone had fun and it definitely feels nice to clear old content without being overgeared with alot of people in the same boat.

the funny thing, it was the high level mentor crying how difficult it was. but that has been my experience with running EX trails at ilvl equipment and being level 50 on crystal.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

I really want a way to queue up with people to do extreme trials that doesn’t require me bowing to elitist scum to join their precious maxed out dps, no mistakes bs. Less gate keeping, more content. Make it happen. NOW. Thanks.

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I think a Synched Roulette would just make these issues worse as the people trying to get in then out ASAP would look poorly on wipes. Suffice it to say, you might have better luck with PF or Discord (even if you include Unsyched runs in this, PF does have more challenging options like Silence Echo and Min ILevel Sync as well)

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

It would "work" only in the sense that the devs could easily put it into the game as a functional roulette that wouldn't crash the game or something. The problem is not enough people would ever do it, no matter the rewards, to make the queue times reasonable. The rare occasions you did get in, you would almost certainly be stuck with a wipefest of unprepared/unwilling participants. The ONLY way you could ever get into it and reasonably clear it would be to find a pre-made group of 8 people....which completely defeats the purpose of it. (ie, if you have 8 competent people willing to do a synced EX trial...then just do a synced EX trial)

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The problem with EXs in Mentor Roulette is more the number of knowledgeable people in the fight. I've cleared Ultima's Bane, Garuda, Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, Mog, Shiva and even on 1 occasion Ramuh in Mentor Roulette. The key factor in completing Ramuh (as well as the other EXs) was that I wasn't the only player in there who understood the mechanics: I was one of the tanks while the other experienced player was a dps. This let me focus on teaching the new tank how to handle the tank mechanics while the dps was able to focus on teaching the various mechanics the healers and dps dealt with.

In theory, a group of 4 experienced and 4 first timers will be able to complete any of the synced EXs within 60 minutes, but most of the old EXs tend to have 1 experienced player and 7 newbies. The key would be getting enough experienced players to participate and if most experienced players are doing the EX roulette once per day it would likely be functional if difficult.

I would like this idea to where it would only queue the player to the extreme trials they cleared.

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Originally Posted by YISUG

don't que for it then :)

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Exactly. We're talking about an option.

I, personally, would *love* to see a minimal ilvl roulette. Leveling roulette bores me to tears.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

This would probably work out fine in Japan, but would be a total dumpster fire in the US.

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Do I really need to point out the massive flaws in that statement? lol!

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Exactly. We're talking about an option.

I, personally, would *love* to see a minimal ilvl roulette. Leveling roulette bores me to tears.

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Options aren't free though. You're asking the dev team to code something they know will see minimal use at best. That time they waste coding an EX roulette could be put into content people will actually partake in.

What is it with ppl not wanting stuff others would like to have? You dont like it, ok, fine - just dont do it. Im not preaching about removing feast either lol.

To make that roullet would be a few min or some hours at max, as its basically a template they already have filled we the ex tirals and maybe an extra reward at the end, the most work would be a image for the DF lol

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

What is it with ppl not wanting stuff others would like to have? You dont like it, ok, fine - just dont do it. Im not preaching about removing feast either lol.

To make that roullet would be a few min or some hours at max, as its basically a template they already have filled we the ex tirals and maybe an extra reward at the end, the most work would be a image for the DF lol

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And you know this based on years of coding experience, yes? Adding code to an existing system isn't simply ctrl C/P. It may cause issues with the existing code, and will inevitably require hours of testing given the sheer scale of a MMO. All for a system they know won't garner any significant interest. There isn't a reward that will incentive people into an EX Roulette. Basically, it's a complete waste of time hence why they've never bothered doing it.

Not to mention, I'll reiterate my point from earlier. EX fights all have a min ilvl requirement. If I queue at i430, you'll only ever get Titania or Innocence. The roulette literally can't give you anything else. And much like Alliance roulette, there is zero incentive for people to do the harder EXs when they can stomp all over Titania and Innocence for the same reward. And before you mention they could up the rewards. They haven't done that for Orbonne yet. Why would they suddenly do it for EXs? Additionally, what could they really offer? If an EX Roulette gave you 300 Revelation tomes. Do you really think 350-400 will be enough for people to do WoL?

People aren't criticise the idea because they don't want you to have it. We're explaining why it'll be a complete waste of time. You won't get to do it even if the devs actually added an EX Roulette because the community as a whole won't queue for it.

The problem with Ex roulette is that the people who are most likely to know and clear the fight are also the ones experienced enough to know to stay the hell out of this roulette.
Even "farm party" PFs were already traps a few weeks after the Ex released and now imagine that with random people who didn't even chose a specific Ex, some of them who have just unlocked this shiny new thing and blindly hopped in, others who know they might get an Ex they don't remember a thing about but hope for the best and do it anyway.
Even normal trial roulette can easily eat 30-40min if you get yet another Hades/ Ruby/ WoL wipefest.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And you know this based on years of coding experience, yes? Adding code to an existing system isn't simply ctrl C/P. It may cause issues with the existing code, and will inevitably require hours of testing given the sheer scale of a MMO. All for a system they know won't garner any significant interest. There isn't a reward that will incentive people into an EX Roulette. Basically, it's a complete waste of time hence why they've never bothered doing it.

Not to mention, I'll reiterate my point from earlier. EX fights all have a min ilvl requirement. If I queue at i430, you'll only ever get Titania or Innocence. The roulette literally can't give you anything else. And much like Alliance roulette, there is zero incentive for people to do the harder EXs when they can stomp all over Titania and Innocence for the same reward. And before you mention they could up the rewards. They haven't done that for Orbonne yet. Why would they suddenly do it for EXs? Additionally, what could they really offer? If an EX Roulette gave you 300 Revelation tomes. Do you really think 350-400 will be enough for people to do WoL?

People aren't criticise the idea because they don't want you to have it. We're explaining why it'll be a complete waste of time. You won't get to do it even if the devs actually added an EX Roulette because the community as a whole won't queue for it.

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You could also with 430 ilvl end up in Titan EX, Suzako EX, Shinyru EX, etc... One person always aiming the tail wrong on Shinyru and ouch! While certain fights like Ultima and Bismarck you can usually teach fast, not all are that way if someone only cleared this content unsynced. Skip SOAR or disband would become a thing again in this Roulette for Zurvan I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Options aren't free though. You're asking the dev team to code something they know will see minimal use at best. That time they waste coding an EX roulette could be put into content people will actually partake in.

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The same could be said about anything that's older than two weeks in this game, though.

And we already have DF. You just apply a stronger lvl synch than the one you usually get. That's a hotfix at best.

A big problem I see right now is not many players like to be synced to a lower level. I think this reason alone would have players avoid an EX trial roulette. Roulettes are mostly used for the rewards they offer, so a clear and a relatively painless one is the expectation for them carried by players.

I think players would be more likely to use this roulette if a clear was guaranteed, and the rewards would have to be worth it. Right now with the current rewards we are given for roulettes along with the difficulty of most EX trials being above casual-friendly, neither of those requirements by players would be met.

However on the flip side, if clears were guaranteed for these fights, the rewards would have actually have to be more on par with current roulette rewards (gil, exp, tomes, wolf marks, clusters). Things like mounts, totems, crafting mats, furnishings etc. would actually have to be stripped from those fights. I know such a decision seems impractical, but I have a strong inclination that if they were asked why there isn't a roulette for EX trials, they would state something along those lines.

The other approach I can think of would require changing the player mindset. They would release the roulette, but also tell players that the rewards will be adjusted so that it is worthwhile, however clears will not be guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

The same could be said about anything that's older than two weeks in this game, though.

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Sure, but all you have to do is look at how mentor roulette functions when EX trials pop up to understand why taking any amount of time programming an EX roulette would be a complete waste of time instead of putting that time coding into something that might get even marginally some benefit and/or use.

It'd either have to be made as a solo queue and have the roulette be completely dead from lack of interest from the fact you have a 90% chance of wiping nonstop for 60minutes, only able to be popped at all due to mentor roulette peeps being funneled into it.
OR
it'd allow for party queueing...which would completely defeat the point of it (since you could just queue up an EX trial if you have 8 people interested in doing them...lol), and serve nothing more than 8/8 premades to get easy access to the huge rewards that would be required on the roulette to get people to even possibly queue it as an incentive.

Unreal trials are Square's solution to letting people enjoy the old fights at a level of difficulty that mirrored when they originally came out. Old EX trials should stay in the void of unsynced territory. And if you really want to do the old ones synced for some reason, then go recruit 7 others on PF or in discords that share the same mindset. If you can't find 7 others...then that speaks volumes about the interest an EX roulette would have.

I don't see anything wrong with adding it as a option. I doubt it would take that much developer time to program a new roulette. Take the trials roulette base programming, switch the trials you get from the Normal/Hard ones to the Extremes, give it a new title and description.

If a player doesn't want to do it, then they choose not to queue. Simple. We've got plenty of other options if we're trying to get tomestones or XP. No one has to do every roulette.

I also don't think it will work out as well as OP hopes because of parties getting frustrated by wipes when part of the party doesn't know what they're doing. Then again, it might work out over time after a rough start. The more you do something, the more familiar you become with it and the better you begin to perform. A roulette would create more exposure.

For someone who said you should only be able to get an EX that you've already cleared, that's not going to stop problems. Plenty of players get carried through clears and don't learn a thing.

As for why we have Unreal, I think that was more because players have been asking for a way to do old content using their full level cap toolkits than to increase exposure to the old EX trials to those who didn't do them when they were current. If the goal was to create exposure, the EX roulette would have been the obvious way to go in the first place.

It's like people forget most don't even remember how to do Sophia synced. Or the fact even the rare time I get Tsukiyomi hard I get killed by tanks aiming the conal attack during the first fan phase. Along with people not paying attention to their moon color stacks. Now try thinking of how worse this can be in extreme. There's a lot of fights that would be hard to do in DF. Specially if when you get those who are all about wanting to do this blind even after the third wipe. Along with those who even after repeated telling how mechanics work still don't care or aren't listening.

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Originally Posted by Rosa_Frandlia

You could also with 430 ilvl end up in Titan EX, Suzako EX, Shinyru EX, etc... One person always aiming the tail wrong on Shinyru and ouch! While certain fights like Ultima and Bismarck you can usually teach fast, not all are that way if someone only cleared this content unsynced. Skip SOAR or disband would become a thing again in this Roulette for Zurvan I'm sure.

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You're right. For some reason, I was assuming only Shadowbringer EXs. That's actually worse since all people have to do is ilvl themselves down to Garuda EX who's a complete cakewalk and bam, they get a ton of tomes for basically nothing. You'd never even see HW, SB and ShB trials.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

The same could be said about anything that's older than two weeks in this game, though.

And we already have DF. You just apply a stronger lvl synch than the one you usually get. That's a hotfix at best.

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Bozja is two months old and still regularly populated. Hell, I'd go so far as to argue an EX Roulette would be less active than Stormblood Ultimates or Blue Mage. At least in the sense of eight completely random people. Premades might take advantage of it as Daerlion outlined. Which not only defeats the whole point but gives premades a reason to ignore every other Roulette. If I'm getting 300-400 Revelation tomes for blitzing Garuda EX down. Why would I ever look at Expert?

That stronger ilvl sych is something they still have not done for Alliance Roulette in well over a year. What makes you think they'll not only make a new roulette but also prioritize a whole new feature none of the current roulettes have? They wouldn't. You'd just see Garuda EX 90% of the time.