Requiring Castrum Litore completion for the next Bozja area is a bad decision.

Next to no one is currently running it and you are going to have many players essentially gated out of the next stage due to this requirement.

There have been numerous ideas on how to make this better but the problem is still having to find at minimum 24 people who want to do the content and right now that's simply not happening.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Next to no one is currently running it and you are going to have many players essentially gated out of the next stage due to this requirement.

There have been numerous ideas on how to make this better but the problem is still having to find at minimum 24 people who want to do the content and right now that's simply not happening.

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As the next content gets closer I guarantee you that place will fill to the brim. Patience.

People are now going to start running it so they can get to the next step. Because you're going to have to do it to not only continue the story, but also get the next relic weapon step. I won't be surprised if said step requires runs of both Castrums in order to keep them alive.

Cheer the community will have to come together to get things done. OMG, what an idea.
Glad I got it done when it was new content. Also, expect a nerf to it once the new zones hits.
There is discord who plan daily runs reach out to one and join up.

Maybe square will realize how this content doesn't work in NA once they see the clear numbers.

Just imagine what will happen once this content is dead next expansion. At least eureka is still clearable even today.

Maybe wait for 5.4 to see what the hotfix is in the patch notes which is most likely coming before the doom and gloom? I'd be very surprised not to see anything in the patch notes.

Typically they've failed in Bozja's content - but a lot of the onus is on how they've balanced the relic grind. If they didn't put a 100% rate on the memories for Heavensward FATEs(which, honestly, I'd prefer we had moved that 100% to Bozja instead), then we would never have had this issue. Right now, it's bad and they need to fix it big time if they ever want Bozja to be good - and I doubt they ever will because they have a bad natural tendency to bend head over heels for the lower, lower end of the player-base. I don't mind it, but it is extremely lacking with how they did relic here - as for the third and fourth step, I'll be interested to see what we get since that's where we get to customize substats(pray to god it's not F-ing Pyros Stat Grinding).

TBH I feel that this kind of thing should be in the Duty Finder and not time-gated inside an instance for content that is essentially already dead.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Typically they've failed in Bozja's content - but a lot of the onus is on how they've balanced the relic grind. If they didn't put a 100% rate on the memories for Heavensward FATEs(which, honestly, I'd prefer we had moved that 100% to Bozja instead), then we would never have had this issue. Right now, it's bad and they need to fix it big time if they ever want Bozja to be good - and I doubt they ever will because they have a bad natural tendency to bend head over heels for the lower, lower end of the player-base. I don't mind it, but it is extremely lacking with how they did relic here - as for the third and fourth step, I'll be interested to see what we get since that's where we get to customize substats(pray to god it's not F-ing Pyros Stat Grinding).

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Honestly, I think the partially wanted Bozja to try and act as independent as possible, as opposed to being largely dependent on the progression of doing relics, probably in fear of people seeing it as being way too similar to Eureka (barring the leveling experience you can get). If they were to make it better to get forgotten memories inside of Bozja then the discussion on the Official Forums would be "Well done Square, you didn't learn your lesson, Bozja is just the exact same as Eureka" - Grinding endless FATEs inside of an instance because people will only ever take the optimal route for getting their items, of course, provided it doesn't coincide with another goal. I don't think it's bad they've tried to make Bozja as independent as possible, but the rewards for doing Castrum itself aren't as good as they should be, and Castrum would have been much better not being locked inside of an instance, but rather on the Duty Finder itself as the above post says.

well the castrum is part of the story so it makes sense you have to complete it to move onto the next area, that said this is going to be a problem going forward when new players want to try this content after the playerbase has moved on.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Next to no one is currently running it and you are going to have many players essentially gated out of the next stage due to this requirement.

There have been numerous ideas on how to make this better but the problem is still having to find at minimum 24 people who want to do the content and right now that's simply not happening.

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As of right now people do not need the Deep Essences and Lost Font Actions as pretty much everything can be done with basic Essences and actions available from Southern Front mobs. Come Delibrum Regina (Savage), the Lost Actions from Castrum may be necessary with each attempt costing 1 or more Deep Essences to complete. This will likely lead to Castrum Forgotten Fragment farms.

I’d say the most likely thing is once castrum is old content they’ll nerf it. I could see the minimum being lowered to 8 people and doable by a full party.

Another possibility. Next patch BLU is going to be 70.... if they allow BLUs into eureka, then they’ll likely allow them into bozja. Then when the next expansion launches and BLU gets bumped up to 80, let’s say there’s a spell in castrum....

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I’d say the most likely thing is once castrum is old content they’ll nerf it. I could see the minimum being lowered to 8 people and doable by a full party.

Another possibility. Next patch BLU is going to be 70.... if they allow BLUs into eureka, then they’ll likely allow them into bozja. Then when the next expansion launches and BLU gets bumped up to 80, let’s say there’s a spell in castrum....

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You have to be min lvl 71 to enter bozja

If not enough people are running Castrum, even after it becomes required, they could simply turn on the Echo while in Castrum so it can be completed with fewer players.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

You have to be min lvl 71 to enter bozja

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Read it again, carefully this time.

... long as it's not required to get the next tier of relic weapons, who really cares?

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Originally Posted by Jennah

... long as it's not required to get the next tier of relic weapons, who really cares?

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Pretty sure he said that the next step can only be started AFTER clearing all the quests tied to the new whatsitsnameagain.

So as I expected, "you can work on the new relic without having to do Bozja" turned out to be another of Yoshida's lies

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I’d say the most likely thing is once castrum is old content they’ll nerf it. I could see the minimum being lowered to 8 people and doable by a full party.
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With 8 people, you would need to divide in two groups of 4 for 1st and 3rd fight. It will not happen.
Not mentioning, you could save one or maybe two prisoners (divided in two groups of 4 again) before 2nd boss.
So you lose a lot of rewards.

The minimum would be 16 people at least.

Same way noone was doing World of Darkness Raid or anything with the Crystal Tower for years until 5.3. Your complaint is a fundamental issue with how it is designed to be so heavily punishing for minor rewards. I see no point in doing Castrum Litore after the first time honestly.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Same way noone was doing World of Darkness Raid or anything with the Crystal Tower for years until 5.3. Your complaint is a fundamental issue with how it is designed to be so heavily punishing for minor rewards. I see no point in doing Castrum Litore after the first time honestly.

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Uhh, people have been constantly doing CT AR roulette for years because LotA and ST are very easy to just mash buttons and succeed in. There's a reason why it shows up so much.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

Pretty sure he said that the next step can only be started AFTER clearing all the quests tied to the new whatsitsnameagain.

So as I expected, "you can work on the new relic without having to do Bozja" turned out to be another of Yoshida's lies

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Its more of a half-truth really, You can work on the relic, yes but you can't finish it.

I'd be fine with either direction, but I do think they dropped the ball with the CLL rewards. AFAIK you can only exchange them for gear and augmenting said gear, meaning that only the hardcore are gonna try to complete the set, having other rewards available people with different dedications (exclusive mats, Field Notes for people that can't do the proper CE's/Skirmishes, maybe even mats for existing relics) would've had gone along way towards incentivizing the content.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

Pretty sure he said that the next step can only be started AFTER clearing all the quests tied to the new whatsitsnameagain.

So as I expected, "you can work on the new relic without having to do Bozja" turned out to be another of Yoshida's lies

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The exact quote being: "We recommend accepting the quest to begin augmenting the Resistance weapons after you unlock the Bozjan southern front, since both can be progressed simultaneously. The items required for augmentations can be found both in and outside of the Bozjan southern front, so you can choose how you want to collect them." Taken from July Live Letter.

Not really seeing the "lie" here. All he said was that you can progress on the relic outside Bozja as well.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

The exact quote being: "We recommend accepting the quest to begin augmenting the Resistance weapons after you unlock the Bozjan southern front, since both can be progressed simultaneously. The items required for augmentations can be found both in and outside of the Bozjan southern front, so you can choose how you want to collect them." Taken from July Live Letter.

Not really seeing the "lie" here. All he said was that you can progress on the relic outside Bozja as well.

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Pretty much; he didn't lie, people just misinterpreted his words. The quote was misinterpreted by quite a lot of people to mean 'relic can be 100% done without touching Bozja' when he was only talking about the fact the items for the current step could be done outside of Bozja. Given how tied to the story of the resistance the weapons are, along with his "encouragement" to do Bozja at the same time as relic, should have given huge red flags to anyone that Bozja story would be mandatory for future upgrades. Bozja was always intended to be the main way to go to get memories for your first relic until you beat CLL, then you'd use HW fates to farm up the remainder & subsequent weapons.

Case in point: Remember when he was "encouraging" players to do CT pre-SHB? (or was it 5.0 ish time he started mentioning it) Same scenario here.

I'm not up to Castrum yet on this alt, and oh boy. It can already be a struggle to find skirmish parties during prime time, and every time I've seen Castrum pop, people having scrambled in shout chat to get a group together, only to have it disintegrate. Looks like this one probably won't be proceeding with Bozja.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

People are now going to start running it so they can get to the next step. Because you're going to have to do it to not only continue the story, but also get the next relic weapon step. I won't be surprised if said step requires runs of both Castrums in order to keep them alive.

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So they did completely ignore one of the biggest complaints about Eureka? Do they not realize this is still forcing people to do it, just like they forced people to do Eureka? They really need to let these types of zones stand on their own and not try to artificially prop them up by tying something like relic/resistance weapons to these zones.

Chances are they are going to pump rewards in Castrum to a workable degree after the patch. Whatever they decide to do will probably be borderline some of the simple fixes people complained about, that orobably would work. Its sort of frustrating right now, but it will probably get hotfixed to a point where people completing it on the first couple days will probably be mad and wish they waited. I mean this is kind of their MO for this sort of stuff. If they dont do anything about it come patch time, then i will definitely be wrong and there will just be no one doing castrum. Considering that i know theres an mettle cap though, i am almost certain they'll probably juice the mettle for castrum so people can easilly rank past 15 or get caught up with a few runs of that alone, would be the most watered down no brainer for what they could do. Other suggestions could be more coins, at least enough for you to come out with 2-3 pieces of gear per completion etc.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So they did completely ignore one of the biggest complaints about Eureka? Do they not realize this is still forcing people to do it, just like they forced people to do Eureka? They really need to let these types of zones stand on their own and not try to artificially prop them up by tying something like relic/resistance weapons to these zones.

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What do you mean 'force'??
The relic isn't mandatory and the story isn't either. And *no* incentive would only lead to no one doing it. If anything you shouldn't be able to get tokens outside of Bozja.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So they did completely ignore one of the biggest complaints about Eureka? Do they not realize this is still forcing people to do it, just like they forced people to do Eureka? They really need to let these types of zones stand on their own and not try to artificially prop them up by tying something like relic/resistance weapons to these zones.

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No one was forced to do Eureka. You don't need a relic weapon. I could turn around and say prior to Eureka we were all forced to do the same old dungeons and in world fates ad nauseum in addition to a slew of other types of retread content. People clamor for something new and they get it and then there is a crowd who is going to yell they are forced to do it and how could they put relic weapons in content they designed for relic weapons.

And relative to Castrum completion, I sincerely doubt that SE devs would provide a way to do relic outside of Borza for the first zone then turn around and for the next one require people go back and complete the area at least through Castrum. Seems to me that there will be another outside of Borza relic alternative.

I might add the grind to R10 isn't that hard and Castrum clears will be spinning fine again after the expected hotpatch with 5.4.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

No one was forced to do Eureka. You don't need a relic weapon. I could turn around and say prior to Eureka we were all forced to do the same old dungeons and in world fates ad nauseum in addition to a slew of other types of retread content. People clamor for something new and they get it and then there is a crowd who is going to yell they are forced to do it and how could they put relic weapons in content they designed for relic weapons.

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If a restaurant serves expired milk, I am not forced to order it. I'm still going to express bewilderment that it's even on the menu.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

If a restaurant serves expired milk, I am not forced to order it. I'm still going to express bewilderment that it's even on the menu.

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The only given with relics is that there will be a crowd no matter what the content who will complain they don't like it. It's been a standard for all relics since they began in ARR. The idea that relics should't be put into content designed for relics is just simply laughable to me at least. They weren't put there to prop up the zones the zones were made especially for them.

This go around they at least provided a way for those who don't want to do the actual relic content to do them outside of the zone.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So they did completely ignore one of the biggest complaints about Eureka? Do they not realize this is still forcing people to do it, just like they forced people to do Eureka? They really need to let these types of zones stand on their own and not try to artificially prop them up by tying something like relic/resistance weapons to these zones.

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Except the biggest complaint about the Eureka weapons is that you could only ever grind in Eureka to progress on the weapons. You always had to go through the same steps of obtaining enough crystals + the items from the high level NM in each of the zone (later put on a vendor to be bought with crystals). You couldn't just knock out a few FATEs while you were waiting on something else (DF queue, PF group to fill up etc.).

In other words, you had to always set time apart for it, even if you were working on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th weapon. Meanwhile, completing the story of a zone is a one-and-done deal. You do it once, and then you can choose to never enter it again when you want to work on a Resistance weapon.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Except the biggest complaint about the Eureka weapons is that you could only ever grind in Eureka to progress on the weapons. You always had to go through the same steps of obtaining enough crystals + the items from the high level NM in each of the zone (later put on a vendor to be bought with crystals). You couldn't just knock out a few FATEs while you were waiting on something else (DF queue, PF group to fill up etc.).

In other words, you had to always set time apart for it, even if you were working on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th weapon. Meanwhile, completing the story of a zone is a one-and-done deal. You do it once, and then you can choose to never enter it again when you want to work on a Resistance weapon.

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Problem is that it still requires 23 other people to beat it at minimum. That's 1/3 of an instance. And once the next step comes out, Bozja Southern is going to largely be a graveyard.

Eureka was able to skirt this by not making the previous have a mandatory fight. It would be like saying in order to get into Pagos you had to kill Pazuzu, or to get into Hydatos you had to kill Penny in Pyros.

Or to get even closer, to get into Pagos you had to kill a scaled down version of Baldesion Arsenal.

The main issue is they're putting this convoluted mandatory step early in the process.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Problem is that it still requires 23 other people to beat it at minimum. That's 1/3 of an instance. And once the next step comes out, Bozja Southern is going to largely be a graveyard.

Eureka was able to skirt this by not making the previous have a mandatory fight. It would be like saying in order to get into Pagos you had to kill Pazuzu, or to get into Hydatos you had to kill Penny in Pyros.

Or to get even closer, to get into Pagos you had to kill a scaled down version of Baldesion Arsenal.

The main issue is they're putting this convoluted mandatory step early in the process.

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I think it's intended story-wise for those who are doing Bozja's storyline. I actually enjoyed it, believe it or not - and given how what's-their-name did X and Y in Z with A, it makes sense, but isn't the best approach.

What they wanted was for people to be able to get memories outside of Bozja so that they could get the relic up to Recollection. Also, remember how Bozja turned into a graveyard after people found out it's 100% Rate in HW? I think this is a means to make sure there's a sort of "challenge" added to the relic rather than make it be so simple to do given it's 60 FATEs and 6 Antitowers. There's been feedback, and it's being listened to by those who have been doing Bozja, hopefully. If it's worth anything they hopefully have listened to our feedback regarding Duels...because that's been a bigger issue than whining about the Savage Version of a 48-man raid.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Cheer the community will have to come together to get things done. OMG, what an idea.

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It is absolutely comical that after you say this, you follow up with this...

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Glad I got it done when it was new content.

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Sounds to me that you're not all that confident of our community once the novelty wears off of newer content. Tell me. Will you (being a member of the community) come to aid those that need to get this done for the next Bozja content? If the answer is no, then you're the last person who should be expressing sarcasm when it comes to the demeanor of the community. If it is yes, then you will be giving that aid with little to no reward for doing so since Castrum offers nothing except a requisite you have already obtained.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Problem is that it still requires 23 other people to beat it at minimum.

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You can beat CLL with less people than 24 (I've cleared in a premade group of 16 + 3-4 pugs that joined when it popped in the early days of Bozja release), if everyone's on point and don't die to every aoe, essence's up and uses lost actions to supercharge everyone's damage output. You may not be saving every prisoner, but that's not mandatory to clear. I wouldn't be surprised if you could do it with 16 people, 24 is hardly the minimum. You only need 8 for Lyon + some remainder to handle the mobs in the main battle arena.

Also, while the superboss of each zone wasn't mandatory to progress the story of the zones and reach the next one, they were mandatory for the relic progression, much akin to how CLL will technically be gate-keeping the next part of the relic. And just like how they made it so that people could still complete the relic due to the Eureka zone bosses being impossible/nigh impossible to solo or low man, I have no doubts they'll do something to CLL to make sure it can be low-manned to future proof it. Just off the top of my head, they have these insanely powerful NPCs running around called the Blades, they could fit them into CLL and give them absurd stats to mow down the bosses if the game detects the player count is underneath a certain threshold. Not to mention possible 100% echo. No doubt they have something in mind with the literal terabytes to petabytes worth of metrics data they likely have showing Castrum on a decline.

Finally, I doubt Bozja will fully die out anyway, since CLL is currently the only source for the deep essence & bloodsucker/beast/whatever the healer one is essences, along with dropping Forgotten fragments that are extremely annoying to farm from star or rank V mobs. Which if the 48 man savage version is hard enough that it mandates those essences & actions for everyone, means CLL farming will become mandatory for anyone not willing to sink hundreds of thousands to millions of gil into forgotten fragments on the mb (seriously, I saw Forgotten fragments of Transcendence up to 10k/pop on some servers which gives you a 1/3rd chance of getting the essence you need) to get a good stock of the essences they need, especially if the savage version has as much replayability as BA did.

Just give Castrum XP and Mettle rewards.
Like... A lot of them.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

You can beat CLL with less people than 24 (I've cleared in a premade group of 16 + 3-4 pugs that joined when it popped in the early days of Bozja release), if everyone's on point and don't die to every aoe, essence's up and uses lost actions to supercharge everyone's damage output. You may not be saving every prisoner, but that's not mandatory to clear. I wouldn't be surprised if you could do it with 16 people, 24 is hardly the minimum. You only need 8 for Lyon + some remainder to handle the mobs in the main battle arena.

Also, while the superboss of each zone wasn't mandatory to progress the story of the zones and reach the next one, they were mandatory for the relic progression, much akin to how CLL will technically be gate-keeping the next part of the relic. And just like how they made it so that people could still complete the relic due to the Eureka zone bosses being impossible/nigh impossible to solo or low man, I have no doubts they'll do something to CLL to make sure it can be low-manned to future proof it. Just off the top of my head, they have these insanely powerful NPCs running around called the Blades, they could fit them into CLL and give them absurd stats to mow down the bosses if the game detects the player count is underneath a certain threshold. Not to mention possible 100% echo. No doubt they have something in mind with the literal terabytes to petabytes worth of metrics data they likely have showing Castrum on a decline.

Finally, I doubt Bozja will fully die out anyway, since CLL is currently the only source for the deep essence & bloodsucker/beast/whatever the healer one is essences, along with dropping Forgotten fragments that are extremely annoying to farm from star or rank V mobs. Which if the 48 man savage version is hard enough that it mandates those essences & actions for everyone, means CLL farming will become mandatory for anyone not willing to sink hundreds of thousands to millions of gil into forgotten fragments on the mb (seriously, I saw Forgotten fragments of Transcendence up to 10k/pop on some servers which gives you a 1/3rd chance of getting the essence you need) to get a good stock of the essences they need, especially if the savage version has as much replayability as BA did.

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I'd wager that a good portion of players inside Bozja are not aware of even half of what you wrote here. Especially those who need a Castrum clear. The coordinated effort required for clearing with fewer players is a tall order, and cannot be expected from those who need Castrum for the clear. If players who have cleared it are running it, why would they be willing to forego even one prisoner? It is also risky as the loss to mettle should the instance fail is massive. Anyone less than rank 15 will feel this hit hard.

Just because it can be completed doesn't mean there are not fundamental problems with Castrum. I agree that I don't believe Bozja will die out. Bozja has incentive such as leveling and cluster farming. Castrum has little to none.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'd wager that a good portion of players inside Bozja are not aware of even half of what you wrote here. Especially those who need a Castrum clear. The coordinated effort required for clearing with fewer players is a tall order, and cannot be expected from those who need Castrum for the clear. If players who have cleared it are running it, why would they be willing to forego even one prisoner? It is also risky as the loss to mettle should the instance fail is massive. Anyone less than rank 15 will feel this hit hard.

Just because it can be completed doesn't mean there are not fundamental problems with Castrum. I agree that I don't believe Bozja will die out. Bozja has incentive such as leveling and cluster farming. Castrum has little to none.

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Incentives for Castrum, if devs are not overhyping Delubrum Reginae 48m difficulty, are lost actions and chances for upgrades. Once the latter is released Castrum should get more attention. Anyway, the main factor of failure for Castrum is players not using DPS essences/items and actions. During one of the live letters, Yoshida requested players to use them and was also pointed out again for Delubrum Reginae 24m too since matched parties are not going to be role balanced.

Still, adding XP and mettle will help right now.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'd wager that a good portion of players inside Bozja are not aware of even half of what you wrote here. Especially those who need a Castrum clear. The coordinated effort required for clearing with fewer players is a tall order, and cannot be expected from those who need Castrum for the clear. If players who have cleared it are running it, why would they be willing to forego even one prisoner? It is also risky as the loss to mettle should the instance fail is massive. Anyone less than rank 15 will feel this hit hard.

Just because it can be completed doesn't mean there are not fundamental problems with Castrum. I agree that I don't believe Bozja will die out. Bozja has incentive such as leveling and cluster farming. Castrum has little to none.

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Of course. I wouldn't expect 16 random pugs to be able to do castrum that easily. I was just pointing out that 24 players minimum is factually incorrect, and that it can be done with less if you get the right players. Just as you can get a group of 48 and still wipe & fail in castrum until it times out, players numbers are irrelevant to a point compared to player awareness & skill; the higher player numbers is really only giving more rez power for people dying to every aoe, in the grand scheme of things. But like I said in my post, Square has all the metrics of castrum they could need and a track history of future proofing older content in Eureka; I'm not worried. I can pretty much guarantee CLL will get some modification in either 5.4 or 5.45 to help aid it, not to mention CLL will likely become very important for anyone at R15 that wants to do the savage version of the next instance due to exclusive powerful fragments in CLL.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Of course. I wouldn't expect 16 random pugs to be able to do castrum that easily. I was just pointing out that 24 players minimum is factually incorrect, and that it can be done with less if you get the right players. Just as you can get a group of 48 and still wipe & fail in castrum until it times out, players numbers are irrelevant to a point compared to player awareness & skill; the higher player numbers is really only giving more rez power for people dying to every aoe, in the grand scheme of things. But like I said in my post, Square has all the metrics of castrum they could need and a track history of future proofing older content in Eureka; I'm not worried. I can pretty much guarantee CLL will get some modification in either 5.4 or 5.45 to help aid it, not to mention CLL will likely become very important for anyone at R15 that wants to do the savage version of the next instance due to exclusive powerful fragments in CLL.

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Technically correct and functionally correct are two completely different things. This is the FFXIV playerbase we're talking about here, lets be honest. The "good" players aren't running Castrum anymore because they sped to Rank 10/15 when Bozja first came out, and got their rank really early, and ran Castrum then. Now they're in Cluster Groups / CE groups for coins.

Regarding buffing / nerfing the content: Look how long it took them to fix the FusterCluck that was Pagos. Lets just say my confidence in their abilities to fix it in a timely manner isn't very high.

Especially when they made the situation WORSE by putting coins in CEs which disincentivized people from running Castrum. There were much better, easier, more elegant solutions (that have been repeatedly pointed out) and they didn't do them.