Open Letter to SE:Redesign Apartment Interiors & Make Apartments Relocatable to Plots

Please redesign apartment interiors to have a fixed, dedicated gardening plot or small space where we can have even one outdoor furnishing item or even make apartments relocatable into small plots.

And further on the relocation issue, allow the invisible timer on relocations, if you so desperately want to give everyone a fair chance. That, at least, should be nothing more than a few lines of added code.


A lot of people don't play for MSQ or even for just raids, but crafting, RP in housing and letting their creativity do the talking with home decorating. As you might have seen from the last few days after 5.35 and even further beyond that, so many people are unhappy and even more upset that the situation is continuing to be ignored by you.

Housing, from FC rooms to apartments to mansions, enrich the player experience, which we were all under the impression that you were passionate about. It disappoints so many of us that this situation has not been remedied and I for one was willing to wait longer for you to change the system than receive the paltry offering of three more wards to fight over.

You are stifling your players unnecessarily and Covid or no Covid, you aren't going to get away without losing more players in the future if you don't do something urgently.

(Sidenote: there is a tag called 'housing crisis' on here, I invite you to think about that.)

Apartments are infinitely easier to obtain than housing plots.
Allowing you to relocate from an apartment to a small plot is basically just abolishing the timer altogether.

They do need to expand apartments though, give larger size options as an alternative to housing.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Apartments are infinitely easier to obtain than housing plots.
Allowing you to relocate from an apartment to a small plot is basically just abolishing the timer altogether.

They do need to expand apartments though, give larger size options as an alternative to housing.

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I also that introducing the timer for relocations full stop would be fairer.

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Originally Posted by ValentianCalestri

or even make apartments relocatable into small plots.

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This would render the placard timer irrelevant. While I hate that blasted thing your relocation idea won't fix much of anything because the fact is we have so many unhappy players due to a shortage of houses. Not because players can't relocate from apartments.

If relocation from apartments was possible there would be just as many unhappy players because that change does not increase the amount of houses in the game. The root of the problem is the lack of houses.

The change we need to apartments is significant upgrades for them. Right now they're just fc rooms with a chocobo stable. You have a very small room to decorate, no cross planting, no outdoor space to use outdoor furnishings, no tenancy, and fcs cannot use them. They're not a legitimate alternative to housing because they lack so many of the features houses have.

If apartments were bigger, could have more than one room or floor, had a balcony to use outdoor furnishings, the ability to crossplant, have tenancy, and fcs could use them complete with a workshop and fc rooms...then the housing situation would improve quite a lot without needing to add more houses. The only completely absent feature would be the ability to use outdoor housing skins.

Of course even if we had the above players would still want houses but at least they would not be locked out of so many features so many wouldn't feel as bad about not having a house if their apartment offered mostly the same features. Many players want a house specifically because apartments lack the upgrades I listed. Especially in the case of fcs given that apartments are currently strictly for individual use.

Make relocate apartments only a solution in means of wanting to move your apartment to another ward or another house area, that would make sense, due to everyone can get an apartment no matter what, housing is a different thing.

also apartments would be a loop whole of exploitation to get a house as soon as it drops.

A lot of people missing that I said put the relocation timer on as well

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Originally Posted by ValentianCalestri

A lot of people missing that I said put the relocation timer on as well

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This is not our first rodeo
We are always seeing insane ideas from players after each major housing plot release and most of them after all are not making much sense.
People will never be happy with apartment even it attached to a working garden plot because it is the vanity made them demanding a House
The real resolution is to increase the supply
Since they didn't expect WoW is dying like a falling star and FF14 is rising in popularity, the housing wards are not under dedicated server.
The real resolution is tech side and since Yoship already said in interview they do have plan to move housing ward to dedicate servers to increase the supply of housing plot.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

but at least they would not be locked out of so many features

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It's phrases like this that might be twisting players expectations about personal house ownership out of shape.

It's not many features. It's a couple of features. It's a lot of fun if you've got a creative itch you want to scratch, no doubt about it, but it's not a game changer.

You can still garden in an apartment or FC room using flowerpots. You cannot crossbreed to get new seeds (something that most players don't care about and many of those who think they do stop caring once they experience it).

You can still decorate in apartments or FC rooms. You can't place outdoor furnishings.

That's the extent of the differences for a personal house versus an apartment. You still get a teleport to your residence (included with the apartment, must buy separate for a house). You still get access to a chocobo stable (included with apartment, must buy separate for a house).

The differences for a FC are a bit more pronounced because apartments are not an option.

You get a unique place for your FC to meet where others can't intrude (not an option if you're trying to use a member house/apartment since guest access has to be allowed so other members can enter).

You get the opportunity to place a Grade 6 Aetherial Wheel Stand to change up Grade 3 actions not available at the GC QM. Not quite as big a deal as it sounds - takes 72 hours to charge and you can only charge 1 at a time - but definitely a good perk if you plan ahead for special events like Make It Rain (Jackpot III) or an expansion launch (Heat of Battle III so everyone can get their main jobs to level cap a little faster).

You can purchase a workshop for crafting the full housing skins, some of which can be a good way to make gil for the FC.

You can make airship/submersible parts and send your fleet on voyages. As others have said, they're really just a glorified version of retainers but they're still a good way to earn gil for the FC.

But still, not having any of those things is not a massive game changer for the individual player. For FCs, it makes it more difficult for the FC to raise gil without relying on member donations and to find places to meet where other players won't suddenly appear to disrupt but there are lots of FCs that function just fine without a house.

All of that said, we still need a system where any character can get a house if the player wants their character to have one. The game experience is not being enhanced by this limited availability and the resulting Housing Savage PvP/black market sales for both gil and real money.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's phrases like this that might be twisting players expectations about personal house ownership out of shape.

It's not many features. It's a couple of features.

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Well according to the below list apartments have literally half the features that private housing does. And this is without even vaguely mentioning the huge difference in furnishing space you get going from an apartment to just a cottage, never mind anything bigger.

Private Housing:

Tenancy
Indoor furnishing
Outdoor Furnishing
Crafting Stations
Npcs/retainer bell, etc
Exterior housing skins
Being able to change your door and window shape (this matters as this does change the interior, but these are not always part of house skins)
Indoor planting
Outdoor/cross planting
Chocobo Stable

FC Housing:

Can be shared with fc members
Indoor furnishing
Outdoor Furnishing
Crafting Stations
Npcs/retainer bell, etc
Exterior housing skins
Being able to change your door and window shape
Indoor planting
Outdoor/cross planting
Chocobo Stable
Aetherial Wheels for better fc buffs (thinking about it now I can't remember if these can be placed in a private residence or not)
Fc rooms
Workshop
Airships and Submarines

Private Apartments:

Indoor furnishing
Crafting Stations
Npcs/retainer bell, etc
Indoor planting
Chocobo Stable (that you cannot customise at all unlike house owners)

FC Apartments:

Doesn't exist

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I mentioned the door and window shape because when I only had an apartment I actually crafted myself some new windows only to find that I could not use them. It really surprised me because apartments clearly do have windows.

Now rewrite those lists to display only what is lacking if a player or FC is without a house and they look much different.

Personal
No outdoor furnishing placement
No changing of outdoor skin, including windows and doors which are reflected in the interior but usually hidden by the player covering the walls to use imitation windows
No crossbreeding for seeds.

FCs
the above, plus
No Grade 3 FC actions
No workshop, which includes airships/submersibles
No FC private chambers (but that doesn't stop anyone from getting an apartment, which is the same thing without the risk of loss when leaving the FC)

A player not getting a personal house is not missing out on "many features" and what little they are missing out on are not game changing in any way. A FC definitely is, which is why SE usually has the personal moratorium when wards are added.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Now rewrite those lists to display only what is lacking if a player or FC is without a house and they look much different.

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When a person thinks about trying content they think about "what can I get from this?" not "what will I be unable to get?" because frankly the list of what you cannot have is literally infinite. Whereas the list of what you can have is a fixed number.

Also a list that displays only what you cannot have isn't very useful because that doesn't tell you what you can do with the content. How does knowing I can crossbreed with seeds inform me that I can have vendors in my apartment? How does knowing I can't use outdoor furniture inform me that I still have access to a chocobo stable?

It looks like you're venturing into suggesting the use of unhelpful lists to try to make apartments look better than they actually are.

Good god imagine if you looked up the loot table for a boss and all the website did was list what it doesn't drop.

Allow apartment do relocation? Why? What would that fix? It would just make it worse and apartment supply would be as bad as housing plots

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Originally Posted by Penthea

When a person thinks about trying content they think about "what can I get from this?" not "what will I be unable to get?" because frankly the list of what you cannot have is literally infinite. Whereas the list of what you can have is a fixed number.

Also a list that displays only what you cannot have isn't very useful because that doesn't tell you what you can do with the content. How does knowing I can crossbreed with seeds inform me that I can have vendors in my apartment? How does knowing I can't use outdoor furniture inform me that I still have access to a chocobo stable?

It looks like you're venturing into suggesting the use of unhelpful lists to try to make apartments look better than they actually are.

Good god imagine if you looked up the loot table for a boss and all the website did was list what it doesn't drop.

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Perhaps you need to go back to reread what I originally quoted from your post. You weren't discussing the benefits of housing in general. You were claiming that players are locked out of many features if they don't own a house.

So I limited my list to that - what a player won't have if they own an apartment instead of a house. It doesn't amount to "many features", only a few.

The real difference is for FCs mostly because apartments aren't even an option for FCs but let's be realistic. Most of the posts hitting the forums right now have nothing to do with players being angry their FC wasn't able to buy a house. They're angry because they couldn't buy a personal house even though an apartment would provide all the features most of them would actively use.

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Originally Posted by Luna-M

Allow apartment do relocation? Why? What would that fix? It would just make it worse and apartment supply would be as bad as housing plots

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It wouldn't impact apartment supply since the apartment would be relinquished when the house was purchased, making it immediately available for another player to purchase. There were already plenty of available apartments on every world even before the additional 2,160 added to every world this week.

But you're right - it doesn't fix anything. The problem is still the supply of houses. Making changes related to relocation doesn't fix the supply.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Perhaps you need to go back to reread what I originally quoted from your post. You weren't discussing the benefits of housing in general. You were claiming that players are locked out of many features if they don't own a house.

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I literally listed a list of benefits and you're trying to tell me I didn't discuss it? Okay. Sure.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

So I limited my list to that - what a player won't have if they own an apartment instead of a house. It doesn't amount to "many features", only a few.

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And I already told you why this is a silly thing to do but at this point I think you're just doing whatever you can to make apartments appear better than they are.

I had an apartment for a many months before I had a house, and while it's better than nothing it was disappointing.

No one expected something called an "apartment" to be literally the free company private chambers with a chocobo stable. Apparently SE's logic is a private room magically becomes an apartment when it comes with a chocobo stable.

The most disappointing things for me were: no balcony for outdoor decor and gardening, and no tenancy. To a point I can understand the lack of an outdoor space because linking that to an indoor space may not be an easy task due to how differently they work...but tenancy? Come on. I was surprised to see that wasn't a feature. At the time I didn't live with my boyfriend in real life and we just wanted a little living space we could share together, but no. For some reason SE think players won't ever want to share their apartments.

Here we are years later and something as basic as tenancy has still not been introduced.

And before you say "SE probably didn't introduce tenancy to apartments because we haven't run out of apartments" I understand this but this doesn't change that pretty often players want to share their apartment with someone else.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The real difference is for FCs mostly because apartments aren't even an option for FCs but let's be realistic. Most of the posts hitting the forums right now have nothing to do with players being angry their FC wasn't able to buy a house. They're angry because they couldn't buy a personal house even though an apartment would provide all the features most of them would actively use.

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Well this does make sense. There are significantly more players than there are fcs. I wouldn't expect the outcry from fcs to be remotely comparable to those looking for a private home.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

And I already told you why this is a silly thing to do but at this point I think you're just doing whatever you can to make apartments appear better than they are.

I had an apartment for a many months before I had a house, and while it's better than nothing it was disappointing.

No one expected something called an "apartment" to be literally the free company private chambers with a chocobo stable. Apparently SE's logic is a private room magically becomes an apartment when it comes with a chocobo stable.

The most disappointing things for me were: no balcony for outdoor decor and gardening, and no tenancy. To a point I can understand the lack of an outdoor space because linking that to an indoor space may not be an easy task due to how differently they work...but tenancy? Come on. I was surprised to see that wasn't a feature. At the time I didn't live with my boyfriend in real life and we just wanted a little living space we could share together, but no. For some reason SE think players won't ever want to share their apartments.

Here we are years later and something as basic as tenancy has still not been introduced.

And before you say "SE probably didn't introduce tenancy to apartments because we haven't run out of apartments" I understand this but this doesn't change that pretty often players want to share their apartment with someone else.



Well this does make sense. There are significantly more players than there are fcs. I wouldn't expect the outcry from fcs to be remotely comparable to those looking for a private home.

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Hm, actually the most helpful comparison method in this situation is a table with one axis being housing type and the other being features because the complete list of implemented features is a known thing. Here you go
The more effective method for linear listing would have been to start with apartments/fc rooms as they have the least features, then houses noting "everything in the above plus, then fc houses with a similar note.

I'd also add permanence to the benefit of apartments along with not being tied to an FC over fc chambers. Which is a pretty neat selling point to me, when auto-demo is on it also means your apartment is the only type of housing you can't potentially lose currently.

From an interview a few years back it also seems like the reason we haven't seen upgrades to apartments is that the focus was on making more plots available which... would kinda remove the need for upgrading them? If we get to the point that everyone can reasonably get a plot then apartments are really your entry-level, can't access housing features through other methods, option mostly for players who aren't in an FC (or whose FC doesn't have a house for reasons) and don't have enough gil saved up for an actual house.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

A player not getting a personal house is not missing out on "many features" and what little they are missing out on are not game changing in any way. A FC definitely is, which is why SE usually has the personal moratorium when wards are added.

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That's one of the things that I liked about LotRO's housing system - the largest houses in that system were dedicated FC (aka kinship) houses (for more info, please see https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Housing ). That might have worked initially... however.... when SE didn't restrict the houses to FC only initially, that change can't be introduced retroactively without causing **A LOT** of problems.