Question about 5.3 character (spoilers)

Hi i'd like to know how, what appeared to be emet'selch, showed up and helped the MC against elidibus.

I'm asking this as my understanding of emet'selch, is that he is a tempered subject of zodiark and as such shouldn't be able work against the rejoining.

He tells us that he was Tempered, but there's some contention there.

1. He could have been lying to draw the conversation to a close, as it was paining him.

2. He told the truth, but not the whole truth. He is tempered, but the tempering effect is weakened on him, because Zodiark was split by Hydaelyn. This gave him enough agency to lay his own will in place for the events of 5.3.

3. Due to being an Unsundered Ascian vs. a Sundered Primal, his will became stronger than Zodiark's, He is no longer tempered at all, until Zodiark is fully restored.

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Originally Posted by ZorkD

Hi i'd like to know how, what appeared to be emet'selch, showed up and helped the MC against elidibus.

I'm asking this as my understanding of emet'selch, is that he is a tempered subject of zodiark and as such shouldn't be able work against the rejoining.

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Technically, this happens after Emet is dead. We are essentially helped by the ghost produced by his lingering aether (as all other ghosts in the game are explained to be). The tempering most likely doesn't hold once they become aether and join the lifestream.

Theres also the option that is wasnt him - as you point out yourself: It appeared to be Emet'Selch, but that doesnt mean that he was actually there. Just how Haurchefaunt and Ysayle werent actually there at the end of Heavensward when we finished Nidhogg off.
It might have just been our characters imagination or maybe some sort of subconscious "summoning" born from the wish to see him again (or something along those lines).

My personal interpretation would be that its not the Emet'Selch we fought and traveled with who showed up but more a... mental image our character has of him. And in that mental image, Emet'Selch isnt a fiend anymore, but an ally. This mental image doesnt need to account for him being tempered or not, because its not the real Emet'Selch - maybe its what we saw in him in the end, maybe its what we wish he would have become, maybe its a hidden memory of Emet'Selch before the summoning of Zodiark, tucked away in our immortal soul, maybe its our wish to part with him on better terms than killing him...
I'm just pretty sure that its not Emet'Selch himself - hes dead, gone for good. So whatever we saw in the end, its not the same Emet'Selch who was tempered by Zodiark and worked against us.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

He tells us that he was Tempered, but there's some contention there.

1. He could have been lying to draw the conversation to a close, as it was paining him.

2. He told the truth, but not the whole truth. He is tempered, but the tempering effect is weakened on him, because Zodiark was split by Hydaelyn. This gave him enough agency to lay his own will in place for the events of 5.3.

3. Due to being an Unsundered Ascian vs. a Sundered Primal, his will became stronger than Zodiark's, He is no longer tempered at all, until Zodiark is fully restored.

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Possibly also:

4. Tempered can be released from servitude upon death, as happened with Nael in the cutscene following Coil 9.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

He tells us that he was Tempered, but there's some contention there.

1. He could have been lying to draw the conversation to a close, as it was paining him.

2. He told the truth, but not the whole truth. He is tempered, but the tempering effect is weakened on him, because Zodiark was split by Hydaelyn. This gave him enough agency to lay his own will in place for the events of 5.3.

3. Due to being an Unsundered Ascian vs. a Sundered Primal, his will became stronger than Zodiark's, He is no longer tempered at all, until Zodiark is fully restored.

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While these are not bad or wrong reasonings I would have liked to see a way for Emet, to break free from the will of Zodiark shown in game.
Where as my own understanding of the strength of a tempering comes from the two Alisaie quest lines with the goblin and the 'ra child, in Ahm Araeng, where the former, whilst not concluded shows no breaking from the tempering of titan. And the latter whilst not described as a tempering by an entity referred to as a primal, did show a level of regaining its personhood.

The reason I'm asking this is that I'd love to revel in the reformation of Emet as an ally, but the game has conditioned me into thinking it would not be possible for him to reform, even if he would want it.

It was him, released from the tempering, and no one can convince me otherwise! :P

Didn't Fandaniel say something about how Emet, "found a way" to do...something? I know someone mentioned something along those lines, and I want to know what they were talking about.

Emet-Selch secretly made a memory crystal commemorating Azem, the PC's Ancient incarnation from the days of Amaurot, and imbued it with Azem's signature magic of summoning like-minded individuals from across space and time. When banished to the Rift by Elidibus, the PC used it to call on Emet's not-totally-dissolved-in-the-Lifestream soul to bail them out.

Fandaniel speculated that Emet may have "... found a way" to do something implicitly with memories, when Zenos mentions his dreams of the Final Days in the 5.2 stinger, I believe? It's really vague what he was talking about, in EN at least.

So, Emet-selch laid the foundation for what occurred in 5.3 prior to his death. This means that he, through his own will, had the idea of supporting us. This means that whatever tempering effect was placed upon him was not wholly in control of his will.

It's not that he died and then did this. It was pre-meditated.

As for Gabu and Halric. Gabu is intensely traumatized by his summoning Titan in anger for the death of his parents. He may not be tempered at all, and they say as much directly in the story. Halric is not tempered. He is afflicted with Light aether poisoning, such that he is part, and will eventually turn, Sineater. For him it's merely restoring equilibrium to his aether that will restore him.

Because Emet-selch has a fully mastered Echo and is strong in it, he may resist Primal influence, so what he tells us doesn't add up with what we know about the game. We suppose just as much by assuming he tells us the truth about being tempered, merely because Zodiark is supposed to be so powerful that he could change the laws of reality. Keep in mind that Emet-selch was also observing us for all of 5.0 up until we slew Vauthry to see whether or not we were strong enough to find another way that didn't involve the Rejoinings. If his tempering is real and has a strong hold over him, he shouldn't have allowed us to act to stop the Rejoining at all. But he did, and on top of that, he was personally disappointed that we failed his expectations.

Gotta remember that not all tempering is the same. And just because someone is tempered doesn't mean they lose their free will. In the case of Emet-Selch he was loyal to Zodiark, but he was still able to think for himself. Think of it akin to religion in the real world. You have your devout followers and you have your casuals, and everyone in between.

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Originally Posted by ZorkD

While these are not bad or wrong reasonings I would have liked to see a way for Emet, to break free from the will of Zodiark shown in game.
Where as my own understanding of the strength of a tempering comes from the two Alisaie quest lines with the goblin and the 'ra child, in Ahm Araeng, where the former, whilst not concluded shows no breaking from the tempering of titan. And the latter whilst not described as a tempering by an entity referred to as a primal, did show a level of regaining its personhood.

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Ga Bu isn't tempered. He is suffering from extreme dissociation due to the traumatic events he experienced. I.e. witnessing his parents' deaths and summoning a primal. There's a bit of ambiguity in the story around this, where Alphinaud briefly expresses concerns that the koboldling may be tempered but if that were the case they would have executed him ages ago.

Sin eaters are not related to tempering. Having your body's aetheric balance overwhelmed and corrupted by the pure aether energy of light is something entirely different.

It's implied that Ga Bu might be tempered, only kept alive as a special request from Alisae. The circumstances leading to his current mental state are extremely suspect, but it's still ambiguous.

Either way if he is tempered, Alisae's treatment for Sin Eater victims was explained as plausibly being able to cure tempering though some mystical mumbo jumbo, so if that's the case I'd wager she'll try it straightaway.

Remember, we are tempered too. That's why nobody else can turn us. We have quite a bit of freedom in our state.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Remember, we are tempered too. That's why nobody else can turn us. We have quite a bit of freedom in our state.

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Remember that is purely a theory at this point. It has not been stated in-game or confirmed by the writers. It might fit the facts, but that does not yet make it a fact.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

My personal interpretation would be that its not the Emet'Selch we fought and traveled with who showed up but more a... mental image our character has of him. [...]
I'm just pretty sure that its not Emet'Selch himself - hes dead, gone for good. So whatever we saw in the end, its not the same Emet'Selch who was tempered by Zodiark and worked against us.

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Ere Our Curtain Falls makes it quite clear that it's the real Emet-Selch's consciousness and not something the WoL dreamt up, or a pre-made illusion from the crystal.

Remember Emet also seemed to just want to nap. What kind of primal would just go and allow a tempered subject to just float in the rift and be all nah I did my job and now I'm just going to float here and wonder if I'll dissolve into nothingness. At least that's what I got from that tale from the shadows that even before we killed him he'd just go and do that.

He seems to be the kind who at least over the many years would do what he had to do in order for a rejoining to occur, but after that was done go and do whatever he wanted. Even if that might have been just napping or looking at the memory crystals. Or trying to find any hint of his two friends in the lifestream.