I don't understand it, I just do not understand it!

Finally Crab Cakes got up to a half decent price on my server (Spriggan), and I got the price up to 8,999 in stacks of 5. They sold well at 7,999, and they began to sell well at 8,999. Then, suddenly someone comes home from work, finds they are sold out on their retainer, and dumpes them for 6,200. Who does anything like that? Can you please look at the history of Crab Cakes, and have a look! I sold 11 stacks of 5 @7,999 (within 1 hour), and 2 stacks of 5 @8,999 (a little slower, but that would have picked up), you do not have to dump the prices, they probably sell for higher (comparable foods in 5.2 sold for 10k and more). Square Enix, can you please take players through a merchant course before letting them out there? :mad:

TC: This crab cake sale marks the end of days!
Me: Cool, I get to save 20k on crab cakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

TC: This crab cake sale marks the end of days!
Me: Cool, I get to save 20k on crab cakes.

---

Nah, I bought them up. :P

Not everyone cares about maximum profits. Players are free to set whatever price they feel is fair for their time and effort.

Why do you care?
Buy the ones at low price from them and resell if you think are smarter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Not everyone cares about maximum profits. Players are free to set whatever price they feel is fair for their time and effort.

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Yeah, I see a lot of that excuse. Personally I think they just don't understand better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garten

Why do you care?
Buy the ones at low price from them and resell if you think are smarter.

---

And I do it, if the price is way too low. Otherwise, if we're talking raw materials, I normally force the price down, down, down, and then buy, leaving them looking silly when I up the prices again, and they are out, because they went into the market with just a couple of hundred of them, while I never go in with less than 2 full stacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

Yeah, I see a lot of that excuse. Personally I think they just don't understand better.

---

We understand perfectly well what we're doing.

You're the one who lacks understanding of what motivates others.

Hmm, according to the merchant courses I took, when you're competing with others in the market you need to differentiate your product from theirs. When all products are functionally the same, you do this by lowering your price to make your product more attractive than your competitor.

Wow, it really does explain what was happening. Perhaps you should have taken that course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

We understand perfectly well what we're doing.

You're the one who lacks understanding of what motivates others.

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Who are WE? Those that has done everything there is to do in the game, and don't have nothing left to do other than to destroy the market for those that haven't done everything yet, and still want to save up gil so their FC can buy a large plot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Hmm, according to the merchant courses I took, when you're competing with others in the market you need to differentiate your product from theirs. When all products are functionally the same, you do this by lowering your price to make your product more attractive than your competitor.

Wow, it really does explain what was happening. Perhaps you should have taken that course.

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Do you go in with few items and set the price 25% lower than everyone else? Hmm, I wonder where you learned becoming a merchant? Sovjet Union while Stalin still ruled? China under Mao's rule?

I can create it 30% cheaper then the market price.
Hmm, 5% of money gain is enough for me and I need my inventory space.
Lets just sell them 25% cheaper, it will sell out in no time and I can continue with my crafting because of the free inventory space I got now.

Nice attempt but since neither would support such a capitalist method of selling product you'll have to try again.

Yes, I might enter a market at 25% below if I thought I could make enough sales to maintain whatever profit margins i wanted. If you can't compete at that level then leave the market or adapt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Nice attempt but since neither would support such a capitalist method of selling product you'll have to try again.

Yes, I might enter a market at 25% below if I thought I could make enough sales to maintain whatever profit margins i wanted. If you can't compete at that level then leave the market or adapt.

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But I do compete, I make millions on the market. A day I don't make more than 1 million gil is a day wasted in my opinion. I'm not sure why you guys even bother crafting, if it isn't to make as much gil as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curisu

I can create it 30% cheaper then the market price.
Hmm, 5% of money gain is enough for me and I need my inventory space.
Lets just sell them 25% cheaper, it will sell out in no time and I can continue with my crafting because of the free inventory space I got now.

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And how much gil do you make that way, compared to finding a niche, keep that niche "clean", and sell at highest possible price?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

And how much gil do you make that way, compared to finding a niche, keep that niche "clean", and sell at highest possible price?

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None, I don't even know what to do with my 150mil.
That's why I sell on a low price, because I don't need money and I could make someone else happy who bought the item for a cheap price.

But normally I undercut by a few hundred gil and not thousands.
But I don't really care, what do I need money for anyway?

The reason people undercut tend to be either

1. because they want more inventory space
2. because they gathered the mats and can therefore make more profit even at lower prices because they don't have to worry about making back the cost on mats (an example: If Purpure Beads are going at 50k, and Asthethe's Cross-Pein Hammers are going for 300k, the the one that gathered their own shell clips can sell their hammers for 250k, and not only sell the item fast, but still make 50k more than the people that had to buy the beads.Going further, if they sell the Beads instead and the Shell Clips and Resin are going for 25k per 4 and 2 of each, then they would've made 100% more money than those that had to buy the mats)
3. or because they find the items too overpriced and want to crash it.

None of these are mutually exclusive. A gatherer would obviously benefit from more inventory space and it is still possible to make a profit while bringing the market down. Especially if people buy your wares with the intent to sell them at the inflated markup you were trying to rout.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

Yeah, I see a lot of that excuse. Personally I think they just don't understand better.

---

Speaking for myself, I completely understand. I just don't care that much. Most of the time if I'm selling an item it's because I'm clearing out inventory space. I list it low to sell and get rid of it. There's no devious ulterior motive to undercut and ruin the market. I just want it gone but selling items is better than trashing them. That said, I don't generally undercut by large amounts, just enough that it will clear out quickly.

Not everyone cares about being a merchant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

have nothing left to do other than to destroy the market for those that haven't done everything yet, and still want to save up gil so their FC can buy a large plot?

---

First rule to remember in dealing with the market is that is it never your market. The market board does not exist to reward you fairly for your effort, nor are you entitled to earn gil from it. Markets do not work that way, they're player driven, open to everyone and subject to supply and demand. If that doesn't sound fair, it isn't, nor is it meant to be.

Once you understand and accept that, you can make reasonable gil on the mb by dabbling in multiple markets, researching on items that are in high demand and being patient even when prices spike and dip.

Also keep in mind crafting is at its all time easiest. Hundreds of thousands of players have max level crafters and competition to sell items is sky high, while demand is naturally lower because more people can make or gather their own items.

It's simple supply, demand, and the want to make sure yours sells.

People charge way more than something is worth to account for "time spent". For example, if the cakes take 3,000 gil to make, and the going price is 8,000, then the people selling them at that price is figuring that their time is worth 5k.

But, if someone else who is bored or who comes by a lot of materials that can be used in making these cakes, decides that they're OK with 3k profit, then they will sell at 6,000. That might make you feel upset, but... maybe you were charging too much for it? I see some items on the market that are just insanely overpriced, like 30k for Lv20 tools and clothes and such, and that just makes me roll my eyes, especially the ones you can get all the ingredients from the guild. And I've checked, they sit and sit and sit and nobody buys them.

Seems the vast majority of people are out of touch with how much their time is actually worth if they think that 20-30k is fair for a Lv20 tool you can make from guild supplier-bought materials (which means zero work being put in). But that's just an example.

Either way, it's simple capitalism, supply&demand, and how much people are willing to pay for your time, and how much people think you should be paid. Maybe there are people out there who are aware that 5k seems a bit steep for whatever it takes to make crab cakes, and decided that they're gonna sell for cheaper?

At the end of the day, you can either buy them all up and resell (they'll just undercut you again) or maybe swallow your pride and sell at 6k. Maybe the old price really was too high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curisu

None, I don't even know what to do with my 150mil.
That's why I sell on a low price, because I don't need money and I could make someone else happy who bought the item for a cheap price.

But normally I undercut by a few hundred gil and not thousands.
But I don't really care, what do I need money for anyway?

---

So what you're basically saying is that as long as you have more than enough gil, no one else deserves to get any, isn't that correct?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

The reason people undercut tend to be either

1. because they want more inventory space
2. because they gathered the mats and can therefore make more profit even at lower prices because they don't have to worry about making back the cost on mats (an example: If Purpure Beads are going at 50k, and Asthethe's Cross-Pein Hammers are going for 300k, the the one that gathered their own shell clips can sell their hammers for 250k, and not only sell the item fast, but still make 50k more than the people that had to buy the beads.Going further, if they sell the Beads instead and the Shell Clips and Resin are going for 25k per 4 and 2 of each, then they would've made 100% more money than those that had to buy the mats)
3. or because they find the items too overpriced and want to crash it.

None of these are mutually exclusive. A gatherer would obviously benefit from more inventory space and it is still possible to make a profit while bringing the market down. Especially if people buy your wares with the intent to sell them at the inflated markup you were trying to rout.

---

Did you read Curisu's answer, just before yours? That's the reason I was expecting to hear, sooner or later. We don't care, we have too much gil, we don't know what to do with it, so we destroy the market for the rest of you.

I can understand the reasons you come up with, but they don't seem to correlate to what I see (in a very few cases). To sell in large quanta, undercutting dramatically, and continue doing so, isn't for any normal reasons, it's to make trouble for those who genuinely try earning on the market. I dump sometimes, but I do it so much lower than the going rate (normally 50%) that it should be obvious I just wan't to get rid of it. Although, some still try to compete with those prices, for reasons I just can't figure out. Leave it be, players will buy it in no time if you don't underbid, they'll even come from other servers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Speaking for myself, I completely understand. I just don't care that much. Most of the time if I'm selling an item it's because I'm clearing out inventory space. I list it low to sell and get rid of it. There's no devious ulterior motive to undercut and ruin the market. I just want it gone but selling items is better than trashing them. That said, I don't generally undercut by large amounts, just enough that it will clear out quickly.

Not everyone cares about being a merchant.

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But that is not what I'm talking about, is it? If you sell an item in a flooded market for 1% under the lowest seller, you don't try to get rid of anything. If you continue to go down 10-100 gil every time a seller goes down, you're not trying to get rid of anything, you're trying to make the other sellers go away, so you can take over the market, or just plain like to harass other sellers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

First rule to remember in dealing with the market is that is it never your market. The market board does not exist to reward you fairly for your effort, nor are you entitled to earn gil from it. Markets do not work that way, they're player driven, open to everyone and subject to supply and demand. If that doesn't sound fair, it isn't, nor is it meant to be.

Once you understand and accept that, you can make reasonable gil on the mb by dabbling in multiple markets, researching on items that are in high demand and being patient even when prices spike and dip.

Also keep in mind crafting is at its all time easiest. Hundreds of thousands of players have max level crafters and competition to sell items is sky high, while demand is naturally lower because more people can make or gather their own items.

---

You aren't really following the discussion, are you? You just had to but in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

But that is not what I'm talking about, is it? If you sell an item in a flooded market for 1% under the lowest seller, you don't try to get rid of anything. If you continue to go down 10-100 gil every time a seller goes down, you're not trying to get rid of anything, you're trying to make the other sellers go away, so you can take over the market, or just plain like to harass other sellers.

---

There are plenty of times that I'd get things like Sublime Solutions out of desynthing things, or the fact I've got a bunch of entry-level crafting food on me, and enough fish to make 200 more... sometimes I just have crap I want to get rid of it and turn it into gil. You don't do that by listing 1% under the other sellers. No, I slash 30% off of it because I WANT IT TO SELL and I don't want it still sitting on my retainer the next day when I log on.

I don't care about taking over markets or anything. I'm a casual player who doesn't care about attempting to be a monopoly or anything like that, that just takes too much time and effort.

I have a bunch of crap, and I want to exchange that for gil. Same as anybody else.

If you want yours to sell, and sell now, you price it lower than everybody else, and hope that nobody is willing to go lower than you. If you lower your price by 1%, the chances are very likely someone will lower it by 2%. However, if I sell it for 25% - 30% less, then there's far less chance someone is willing to go lower than that, or, some baron wannabe like you will buy to resell. Either way, I get the gil, and the items are gone.

Also, it depends on how much confidence I have in an item. For example, Slithersand when it first came out. Yeah, I'll list for 500-1k cheaper. Though these days I'll go a bit lower than that, because the markets on those evened out once the initial craze passed. I still get decent prices for it, though, even if I slash 5k off the price. I'll log on next day and it's gone.

In the end, all I care about is keeping my inventory clean, and getting a modest amount of gil for it. I don't want to vendor it for 10 gil, but yet I don't mind getting like 500 or a zonure leather, or some-such. And if I see a million zonure leathers up for like 2k each... I don't mind listing mine for 1500, or 1200 or what-not. Better than holding onto it, or getting 10 from the vendor.

Im lazyyyy, so I make my teporting money with growing althyk lavender and trading those for nuggets.
If I got pissed every time someone undercuts the prices to oblivion, I would be dead by having been too damn pissed all The Time, desu.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

Im lazyyyy, so I make my teporting money with growing althyk lavender and trading those for nuggets.
If I got pissed every time someone undercuts the prices to oblivion, I would be dead by having been too damn pissed all The Time, desu.

---

There are far easier ways to make "teleporting money". I mean, simply getting 2 retainers to lv80 and doing 18h ventures each day gives you 8,000 per day (you can turn the coins into the Doman Enclave for a free 20k per week) and also Challenge Logs. And Qing up for a couple Adventurer in Needs per day.

That, and let's not forget that the best way to earn a gil is to save a gil -- I am a super-casual player and I have 62 million. A lot of that was made by not spending it on stupid stuff like the latest crafted gear.

I deysnth. It took me along while. cost of teleport to doma and hand it certain battlecrafts, and its really a free near 40k just from running daily df roulettes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

But I do compete, I make millions on the market. A day I don't make more than 1 million gil is a day wasted in my opinion. I'm not sure why you guys even bother crafting, if it isn't to make as much gil as possible.

---

I craft because I enjoy crafting. It's fun to make things for myself, and to make things for others who can use the items but aren't interested in crafting themselves or haven't leveled crafting sufficiently. The small profits still add up over time. My expenses get covered and I have some gil leftover for other things I might want that I can't (or are too lazy to) provide for myself.

Again, you need to understand that what motivates you is not what motivates others nor does it need to be. Not everyone cares about wealth accumulation in a game where excess wealth has no value because there's nothing for the player to buy with it.

Whether you like it or not, you will be competing in the markets against a variety of sellers with motivations different from your own. That means you need to be ready to adapt to how the market changes as sellers come and go. If you feel like new sellers entering the market are cutting the profit margin down below what you feel is acceptable to you, then you need to find new things to sell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

So what you're basically saying is that as long as you have more than enough gil, no one else deserves to get any, isn't that correct?

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Everyone deserves money I just don't care enough to be up to date with the market.
I see the current lowest price, cut my price by 100-1000 gil and start selling it.

Also, I don't really know how I made all my money, I just sell the retainer stuff and desync everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

So what you're basically saying is that as long as you have more than enough gil, no one else deserves to get any, isn't that correct?

---

Just now noticed this....

No that's not what we're saying.

We're saying "I want mine to sell."

I don't care what you do. I don't care if you get more gil than me, or make more sales than me.

All I care is that the stuff I listed has sold. What happens after, I simply don't care.

What I don't want, is to log on and see the items still sitting on my retainer the next day.

This has nothing to do with anybody else, other than I have to price my stuff lower than theirs to get it to sell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maeka

...
What I don't want, is to log on and see the items still sitting on my retainer the next day.

This has nothing to do with anybody else, other than I have to price my stuff lower than theirs to get it to sell.

---

Actually you don't.

Single item. How many sell / day? What's the price deferential?

Something has been selling 10 or so / day at 100K, someone puts one at 80K, rest are 100k or more. I will list at 99,900. It will sell. Only danger is that everyone /panics and undercuts Mr 80K.

I want to sell 20 of an item that stacks, there are 20 99s at 1200, next listing is 50 at 1500 then nothing until 1700. I will list at 1690 and it will sell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shadygrove

Actually you don't.

Single item. How many sell / day? What's the price deferential?

Something has been selling 10 or so / day at 100K, someone puts one at 80K, rest are 100k or more. I will list at 99,900. It will sell. Only danger is that everyone /panics and undercuts Mr 80K.

I want to sell 20 of an item that stacks, there are 20 99s at 1200, next listing is 50 at 1500 then nothing until 1700. I will list at 1690 and it will sell.

---

Like I said, depends upon the confidence I have in the item that it will sell and how much I am wanting to get rid of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Just now noticed this....

No that's not what we're saying.

We're saying "I want mine to sell."

I don't care what you do. I don't care if you get more gil than me, or make more sales than me.

All I care is that the stuff I listed has sold. What happens after, I simply don't care.

What I don't want, is to log on and see the items still sitting on my retainer the next day.

This has nothing to do with anybody else, other than I have to price my stuff lower than theirs to get it to sell.

---

If you didn't feel it concerned you, why did you answer? Did you read the post I was replying to?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maeka

There are far easier ways to make "teleporting money". I mean, simply getting 2 retainers to lv80 and doing 18h ventures each day gives you 8,000 per day (you can turn the coins into the Doman Enclave for a free 20k per week) and also Challenge Logs. And Qing up for a couple Adventurer in Needs per day.

That, and let's not forget that the best way to earn a gil is to save a gil -- I am a super-casual player and I have 62 million. A lot of that was made by not spending it on stupid stuff like the latest crafted gear.

---

I keep my retainer bringing me Shroud Topsoil 2, and got access to one gardening bed and 4 flowerpots, on Rag. That's 36 lavenders per day, which turn into 108 titanium nuggets, which net like 64k if I sell them with 600gil per nugget. Good tele money, I can buy the raid food and pots i need too. Nothing to complain here.

Maaa~ybe needless to say that this is not my main method of making money, if I want to make good money. Just little money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Everyone deserves money I just don't care enough to be up to date with the market.
I see the current lowest price, cut my price by 100-1000 gil and start selling it.

Also, I don't really know how I made all my money, I just sell the retainer stuff and desync everything.

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Then why did you go into this discussion? I don't talk about people who put things in the market and "forgets" about them, I talk about those that go in and destroy the market, on purpose or out of ignorance. They will post it maybe 5% lower, and when you go 1 gil under they drop another 5%, and so on. Not enough that it's worth buying them out, just enough that the market starts to go down. And when everyone follows it's all but impossible to clean it up again. I've done it a few times, for millions, and in most cases I get my money back, but it takes time, but it's a game of hazard, so it doesn't always pay off.

That is callled trade and who can do it for the best price and still earn on it, get into the competition, or start selling something else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

That is callled trade and who can do it for the best price and still earn on it, get into the competition, or start selling something else.

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I give up on this community. It's like you guys either don't want to earn money, don't want others to make money, don't give a rats ass and just arbitrarily set prices, or don't have the intellect to understand how to trade.

ps
You obviously haven't read the other posts in this tread. I make lots of money, that's not the problem.

Trying to educate casual sellers is pointless. They don't care and squirm in discomfort at the thought of learning how anything in the game works because learning implies taking it seriously and taking it seriously implies treating it "like a job." They'll shoot themselves, you, and the nice old lady across the street in the foot if that's what it takes to "succeed" in a way that is intuitively appealing to them. Just accept they're part of the market and exploit their incompetence. Weekends are for buying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Angelhearth

Then why did you go into this discussion? I don't talk about people who put things in the market and "forgets" about them, I talk about those that go in and destroy the market, on purpose or out of ignorance.

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That's why I'm in this discussion.
I'm part of the problem you are so mad about and wanted to explain you why I "destroy" the market.

And it is quite simple, I don't care about money in this game. And many other don't care too, because there is nothing you can do with money.

And if you want to play the market game, then feel free to do it.
I have to deal with bad players who don't even know their class in savage content and you have to deal with player you don't know how to play the market board successful.
Everyone has to deal with some sort of bad players.