Why does a paladin resort to trickery?

Ok this is my first thread and first post so be gentle. :D

I have no real problem with Goring Blade or Riot Blade in itself but more with the class/job that uses it. I can use them just fine. I however do not think that a paladin should resort to an ability that would mostly be seen with a thief or an assassin class. Even if it was grand fathered in from Gladiator. I just find it a bit silly that a Holy knight that goes by truth, justice and the Paladin way is sneaking behind an enemy to stab them and watch them bleed to death or lower there armor through trickery( and yes I know Riot Blade is a good combo with Rage of Halone. Lower defense of target then hit it with a five fold attack with increased accuracy). I just don't like the back attack abilities being on a Paladin. But maybe that's just me.

I would like to see Circle Slash come back give the paladin an ability that damages multiple target (besides War Drum which you have to block to use). Or maybe we will see more back stabbing abilities with the paladin since from what I hear and read Warrior is the tank and there is no real room for Paladin right now. Maybe that is Paladins calling to get behind a enemy and stab it for armor loss or bleeding effects. lol j/k

If any one has done a post on this before I am sorry I did not know.

Thoughts, remarks, questions GO!!!

That's because those are Gladiator skills, not Paladin ones. Can't help what you've learned before can you? :P

That's a fair point, and your not the first to bring it up (although you are the first I've seen to bring it up based on Paladin virtues.) It doesn't seem logical to base debuffs on back attacks when the core focus of a tank is to keep the mobs position fixed so it's not endangering other players. In some of the more difficult fights you can compromise your party just by turning the mob around for a split second in others it's not a big deal. The reverse can be true also however, why do DD's have frontal damage combos when in most cases their position is behind/around the mob to avoid being hit.

In the end I think it's just to add a bit of complexity to fights. PLD/GLA and other jobs have the choice of doing a combo and trying to reap all the benefits it has to offer, but it's ultimately up to them to ascertain weather or not the risk is worth it the reward gained.

They should add in Dark Knight as a second job for Gladiator >:D Then you can choose whether to be good or ev...not so good.

I think this ability is for when the PLD loses hate again.

I also thought it was more of the Gladiator losing hate needs a harder hit to get it back.

It also seems like a Dark Knight type of move.

I understand Riot Blade more then Goring Blade. Since it is a ranged attack. So when the mob runs after a mage or Bard you can draw it back with less defense and hit it with Rage of Halone to keep it on you instead of chasing it down. Not as much trickery there. Your just doing your job keeping your party members safe.

But Goring Blade is 3000 tp by itself. Or free from a combo action with Fast Blade and Savage Blade. Does the bleeding actually create that much more enmity? Unless the DDs are going all out I would think that Fast Blade and Savage Blade would be enough to bring it back or even a Fast Blade and Flat Blade since its a ten second cool down and cost 1000 tp. What Tank has 3000 tp laying around to use that Right away. After the combo you still have to sneak around the target like a thief to get the bleeding effect (assuming its already back on you).

As for them being Gladiator abilities. Yes I know but in the Gladiator story line when did you see a Gladiator that did not have some sense of honor (of course I mean the ones with a name or unique aperance)

Raubahn Aldynn is suppose to be the best Gladiator and he only did it to protect Ul'dah. as well as he is the Flame General.

lol I guess I am looking to much at this from a role playing perspective.

Like I said before great abilities and I do like using them but just wish it was on a different Class/Job.

ps. Thanks you all for your posts.

You don't have to use them from behind, especially goring blade. The behind is just for an added debuff which makes sense. You have a chance of messing up your party by lowering its defense or causin it DoT damage. So in essence you are trading the safety of party or debuff.

And like its been said, it's gladiator skill lol I wish goring blade stayed as the animation before and they just added back luminous spire!

Most of the time it's possible to perform a WS from behind the mob and run back in front before it executes the animation, and the mob doesn't turn anywhere. Just saying.

My question is, why is a Paladin not allowed to stab something in the back and watch it bleed to death? I mean battles are fought to the death, one should use every advantage they can get. We're talking about killing monsters here, they wouldn't hesitate to do the same if they had the chance.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

My question is, why is a Paladin not allowed to stab something in the back and watch it bleed to death? I mean battles are fought to the death, one should use every advantage they can get. We're talking about killing monsters here, they wouldn't hesitate to do the same if they had the chance.

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This. War is not a series of mutually agreed duels.

All is fair in love and war.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

I think this ability is for when the PLD loses hate again.

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Yeah, exactly this.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

My question is, why is a Paladin not allowed to stab something in the back and watch it bleed to death? I mean battles are fought to the death, one should use every advantage they can get. We're talking about killing monsters here, they wouldn't hesitate to do the same if they had the chance.

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Originally Posted by Frein

This. War is not a series of mutually agreed duels.

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Naturally so; only in the past fifty years has there been an attempt to westernize war, and it still hasn't worked.

Yes, War is ugly.
But Paladins AREN'T WARriors.

Their traits are virtue and chivalry

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, War is ugly.
But Paladins AREN'T WARriors.

Their traits are virtue and chivalry

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Exactly, Paladins are meaningless without principles.

In fact, that's what this MMORPG lacks. The RPG part.
If you look back at the D&D Paladin, it's on par with a warrior in all stats. But it has roleplay issues.
Share a part of their wealth, fight with loyalty, help the needy, etc...

Why don't they give that to our PLD ? This way, when little whiners will argue "Why is the PLD better than the WAR, nerf ! nerf !" We could say "Because we have to follow a lot of principles to keep our powers ! If you think you can follow them too, be my guest, play a PLD !"

SE can implement mandatory quests that we have to do each day or week, fighting rules like "Can't attack a monster who didn't attack you", "Can't attack from the back", etc...and we don't follow, we get a temporary penalty, and we have to make amends.

Y'all know that Paladins in this setting aren't some elite order established to promote some 'holier than thou' ideals from a god and further its cause, right? That they were formed to protect the Sultan Ul'dah, then its people as the group grew larger? They're more like bodyguards, focused on keeping the people around them alive, rather than giving every enemy that crosses their path a fair and sporting chance to win. >>

You all know that the first use of the word "Paladin" refers to the title given to the best warriors of Charlemagne, right ?
So, by definition, Paladins are supposed to be better than common warriors. And they were supposed to represent Christian valor, too.
Replace "Charlemagne" with "Sultan", and "Christian" by "whatever god the Sultan worship", and you'll see some similarities ;-)

Besides, as personal guards, shouldn't we be on guard duty from times to times ? That could be a mandatory levequest.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You all know that the first use of the word "Paladin" refers to the title given to the best warriors of Charlemagne, right ?
So, by definition, Paladins are supposed to be better than common warriors. And they were supposed to represent Christian valor, too.
Replace "Charlemagne" with "Sultan", and "Christian" by "whatever god the Sultan worship", and you'll see some similarities ;-)

Besides, as personal guards, shouldn't we be on guard duty from times to times ? That could be a mandatory levequest.

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That sounds like a great way to keep people from playing PLD. While I understand where you are coming from (tabletop RPG nerd here), it just doesn't mesh well with MMOs. PLD isn't a Paladin from D&D, it's just another variation of GLA. If you start making PLD take mandatory quests or guildleves then you are going to be making people log in to basically play a work simulation. And work simulators are not fun.

You sure some of you are not just overthinking this whole thing?

It really is a skill that a shield-wielder can use in case he loses hate and his taunts(as a general term) are on cooldown. Or to be used to claim from further away, if he wishes not to use his taunts.

I feel like the immersion is more lost in the movement from front to back (clipping through the mob) rather than PLD should be "better" than that. I don't see the morality issue, and as others have said it came from GLA anyway.

As for it making things less safe for the party - this is where skill/tactics comes into play. Something like Ifrit where you can get knockback you just need to pay more attention to whats going on, and use it right after he uses a tp move. The mob only turns for half a second at most, so if you're timing it properly there should be no issue.

Personally, though - I do find it frustrating that both of our primary combos involve moving around for optimal . MNK has a combo where you can stay behind the whole way through, and WAR has a combo where you can stay in front the whole way through. I don't have 50 DRG but iirc they have a frontal combo as well.

Also, I despise the whole "it's for when you lose hate" argument. PLD should not be losing hate. I don't need tools that are only useful for when I lose hate, because my goal is to NOT lose hate.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Also, I despise the whole "it's for when you lose hate" argument. PLD should not be losing hate. I don't need tools that are only useful for when I lose hate, because my goal is to NOT lose hate.

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Tell that to Coincounter in Aurum Vale, maybe he'll promise not to use Animal Instinct. Also, remember to /bow to the King Moggle.

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Originally Posted by Digirotta

Tell that to Coincounter in Aurum Vale, maybe he'll promise not to use Animal Instinct. Also, remember to /bow to the King Moggle.

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That's what Voke/Flash is for. Most hate reset moves are full party hate reset. Yes, you lost hate but so did EVERYONE ELSE.

I can almost guaruntee Voke/Flash is up, but not that I have 2000 tp. Not to mention, when losing hate in that type of situation my first thought is not "OMG I better use a WS" it's "I better Flash/Voke to regain hate"

There's just too many tools for the scenario when we lose hate, and what most people are referencing here its for when someone else pulls hate, not for when a mob resets hate. Voke and Flash are plenty to regain hate so that you can start tanking normally again. Dealing with hate reset shouldn't be an issue if you're doing your job right. Animal Instinct should be happening right in front of you, and in moogle you should keep the center of the arena in your view the whole time you kite, so the second you see king with green hate running to the middle you should be able to get it back without issue.

My tanking consists of the regular 15 second cycle. Meaning, after i use Provoke, i have 15 seconds to do Healing and Counter-attacks, before i pop Flash. After that, i have another 15 seconds before Provoke is up again. At this point usually pop a Divine Veil and Aegis Boon/Outmaneuver combo, and pop a possible counter-attack. After that, Provoke is up again, and my cycle restarts. Here i usually pop Rampart after Provoke.

Now, if a hate reset would occur right after i pop Provoke or Flash, i'd have to wait over 10 seconds before an insta-claim ability can be used again. THIS is where the Riot Blade comes into play. It's ranged, and it lowers target's defense when it's executed from behind, AND it comboes to Rage of Halone with increased accuracy, granting a very nice headstart on enmity. After that, i just get back to my rotation. It's the perfect reclaiming tool for lost hate as it is. If i don't have TP, it means that BRD hasn't done his or her job.

This way it's much easier for DD's to follow their enmity build-up and make estimates on when to use hate-reducing abilites, and when to WS, without having to just stand there auto-attacking and waiting for the tank to "do something about it". In other words, it's easier to keep constant damage and debuffs on the target.

Yoshi has mentioned it twice now, Dark Knight being associated with GLA. Not sure it makes sense to me, would've expected Thief, RDM, BLU etc to come out of GLA.

Although....... Cecil Harvey is possibly the dopest FF hero to walk the FF series.

Dark Knight is a sword user in earlier FF. Only FF XI made it a 2-handed-weapon user.

But personally, i'd like to see Dark Knight as a second MRD upgrade and Red Mage for GLA, both with THM "subjob".
Technically, RDM is a sword and shield user too.

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

Yoshi has mentioned it twice now, Dark Knight being associated with GLA. Not sure it makes sense to me, would've expected Thief, RDM, BLU etc to come out of GLA.

Although....... Cecil Harvey is possibly the dopest FF hero to walk the FF series.

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This. I miss my old THF from XI. Houbaut, your extremely long elvaan arms and dopey face will never be forgotten.

The poofy AF/Relic pants. >.>

Hey, we became Paladins by helping Jerlyns see the light and find the error in his ways, and we did whatever necessary to accomplish this task. We continue helping things see the light, just sometimes the only way for us to do that is beat them into oblivion, and sometimes we have to get behind them to do that. Means to an end, my friend, means to an end.