question about Taimat the dragon at Aza Lla

since the defeat of all the ascains what happen to Tiamat. since the ascian where one that bretrayed and decieved her is justice meet can she now be free we slayed her mate murder and her decievers

First of all: This probably belongs in the lore-forum, not general discussion and you'll get better answers over there.

To answer your question: As I recall it, in theory she could break free anytime she wants. But she doesnt want to - shes staying there out of her own decision, because she feels guilty about what happend to Bahamut. Staying is the punishment she choose for herself, so I doubt she'll ever go free.

Vidu is right - Tiamat remains bound by the neurolink in Azys Lla not because she cannot escape, she can and could escape whenever she wanted, and she doesn't remain because she is afraid of the Ascians who manipulated her "might still be out there", she remains there as a form of penance for what she did, summoning her beloved brother in a twisted mockery of his image that only brought death and ruination on her own people.

She feels enormous guilt for summoning Bahamut as a Primal, far far more than any thirst for vengence she once had for the real Bahamut's death, or towards the ones responsible for his death (the Allag) or the ones who manipulated her to summon (the Ascians), and remaining confined on a floating rock in Azys Lla forevermore is her punishment by her own choice.

So basically Tiamat is there by her own will, and will probably never leave.

it kind sad that she chosen to remian. i wish her father could convince she face enough punishment

She may become a plot character that does leave depending on what goes on in 6.0 or later expansions. Perhaps she may eventually agree that she has served enough time in punishment if we the WoL plus her father Midgardsormr, can do more to convince her that the world is being freed from the enemies of old that twisted her into doing what she did and that endless punishment is a waste of her life and that she do could so much more for her kind of she rejoined dragons.


Perhaps if the Allagans or its power returns in ther hands of a new /old enemy in future expacks she may come back and help us stop an allagan based threat.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

it kind sad that she chosen to remian. i wish her father could convince she face enough punishment

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I mean... he already tried that and it didnt work.

Considering the lifespan of a dragon, I doubt "we" will life long enough to see wether or not she finally forgives herself.

And honestly: After seeing her so adamant about staying, I dont want to see her change her mind. As much as I'd like to see her free, I feel it would be very inconsistent at this point. For a dragon mere moments have passed since we left her there (after she told us and Midgardsormr that she wishes to remain). If she changed her mind now, it would cheapen her character.
I really like that even though we're the "Warroir of Light", the champion of the world, it doesnt mean much to an immortal being like her. That even though we tried to convince her to free herself, our word doesnt matter much to her - Peace-Division is talking about how maybe we can convince her, but I honestly dont want to see that because it doesnt feel right that someone like us tells her that shes suffered enough. We're in no position to do that because we cant possibly understand the depth of her suffering and how fresh it still is in her mind.
Just how a 1.000 year war might have seemed excessive to us and Ishgard - it didnt to Nidhogg. He still rememberd the murder of his sister as if it was yesterday, because for him it kinda was yesterday.
Since Tiamat confirmed her decision at the end of Heavensward not that much time has passed - and I dont think that events like us killing the Ascians will change anything about how she feels: Guilty. Not even a being who might be able to understand her - her own father - was able to convince her otherwise. I dont feel that a mere mortal like us would stand a real chance - or should stand a real chance. We might be able to slay any beast or primal in our way, but we cant fix everything.
Tiamat is a great example of us not being an allpowerful hero.

I'm suddenly curious if she reacted at all in the 8th Calamity Timeline. I wish we could talk with her, her reaction to certain events would be interesting.

Namely things in Omega.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

since the defeat of all the ascains what happen to Tiamat. since the ascian where one that bretrayed and decieved her is justice meet can she now be free we slayed her mate murder and her decievers

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This is an easy question to answer.. regardless of what ever lore exists in the game, the simple answer is that she has been forgotten about by the story team. We may see her again if the story ever revisits Ishgard or the dragonsong events but i imagine she'll just be left hanging in limbo because she was a minor plot point that simply isnt needed and so she'll get no resolution.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

This is an easy question to answer.. regardless of what ever lore exists in the game, the simple answer is that she has been forgotten about by the story team. We may see her again if the story ever revisits Ishgard or the dragonsong events but i imagine she'll just be left hanging in limbo because she was a minor plot point that simply isnt needed and so she'll get no resolution.

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As I explained before: I dont think shes set up to recive her resolution through us - personally I like that, because it shows that we're not able to fix every problem or that it is even our job to do that.

She was probably set up in this way so the story wouldnt need to revisit her and she could be forgotten about by the story-team - but in my opinion it was done in a "clever" way. There is no need to revisit her, because she clearly stated herself that she doesnt want to be freed - and I dont see how we, a creature that must appear to her like a mayfly appears to us, can resolve her problem without us appearing unreasonable powerful.

I dont think she was ever meant to be "rescued", so its not so much "forgetting about her" and more sticking to how they designed that character.

I don't think the devs forgot about her.

Hell, we may even get some resolution on her before you know it. Yoshi-P recently said that players should refresh their HW knowledge for upcoming story stuff, and since presumably he isn't talking about Ishgard since that's all pretty well in hand, presumably he's talking about dragons. And aside from the ones we just haven't met yet, the only one of Middy's brood who still is an open thread is Tiamat.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

This is an easy question to answer.. regardless of what ever lore exists in the game, the simple answer is that she has been forgotten about by the story team. We may see her again if the story ever revisits Ishgard or the dragonsong events but i imagine she'll just be left hanging in limbo because she was a minor plot point that simply isnt needed and so she'll get no resolution.

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Just like G'raha Tia, right? You never know when the story writers will suddenly pull back in something from ages ago. I think they have proved time and again they never forget even the most minor plot points of this story. Didn't someone say that Yoshi-P said we should be looking back to the events of Heavensward in regards to the upcoming expansion? Where was that comment at....

EDIT: O it's right above me, how convenient!

i kind hope we evenaulty get dragonling companion maybe Midgardsormr get stronger enough that we get fight with him at are side as a dragonling and for dragoon they get Orn Khai

kind like Chocobo companion can you picture what midgardsormr look like in branding for dragonling warrior of light branding midgardsormr would look kind cute

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I'm suddenly curious if she reacted at all in the 8th Calamity Timeline.

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I doubt it. She's been there through several other calamities already.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

Just like G'raha Tia, right? You never know when the story writers will suddenly pull back in something from ages ago. I think they have proved time and again they never forget even the most minor plot points of this story. Didn't someone say that Yoshi-P said we should be looking back to the events of Heavensward in regards to the upcoming expansion? Where was that comment at....
EDIT: O it's right above me, how convenient!

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Sure, like G'raha Tia.. Except for the fact that when compared to G'raha, Tiamat was a 10min conversation as opposed to be a central figure in a 24-man raid that happened over the course of the relaunch of the game and we ended things with a tearful goodbye.
So if Yoshida is looking through past expansions to pluck a new story thread, i doubt it will be the dragon we never thought about before we had a chance to talk to them or after we walked away from them. So i stand by my prediction she will stay in limbo.
More than likely, they're looking into the HW raids and trying to see what characters or story threads will come from that; the alliance raid dealing with the voidsent is probably much more likely than anything, as we have been dealing with the 13thd world (the void) since the game's relaunch in one form or another; be it the crystal tower (and cloud of darkness) or Unukalhai who came from the 13th world via Elidibus saving them, Diablos and possibly Ultima the High Seraph (story connections between her and Unukalhai exposition)... Especially now that we know what the 13th world is in the cosmology of the game world, how it was created.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

Just like G'raha Tia, right? You never know when the story writers will suddenly pull back in something from ages ago. I think they have proved time and again they never forget even the most minor plot points of this story. Didn't someone say that Yoshi-P said we should be looking back to the events of Heavensward in regards to the upcoming expansion? Where was that comment at....

EDIT: O it's right above me, how convenient!

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I still remember someone making a giant ass thread before Shadowbringers dropped about how the Warriors of Darkness were a forgotten story beat as well and that SE should be ashamed of themselves for ignoring it. That isn't to say Tiamat isn't potentially a one and done idea. In fact if we never see her again I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. That said I do like how the writers have written her and other minor plot elements like her in such a way that they can be called upon easily if they feel the story demands their presence. Like if we end up going to Meracydia, which I can absolutely see being a returning point for her. Sometimes it's better to have a multitude of open story threads for future installments to pull from rather than a bunch of neatly closed ones.

Tiamat will only leave when she feels she's absolved herself of her guilt in the "crimes" she holds against herself. If papa Midgar couldn't convince her to leave then we sure as hell can't!

The only outside force that I could see convincing her is her remaining siblings, but Hrasvelgr seems content with things now that the dragonsong war is finished, and Azdaja & Vrtra(the 2 remaining great wyrms) are entirely unaccounted for in any capacity.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

Sure, like G'raha Tia.. Except for the fact that when compared to G'raha, Tiamat was a 10min conversation as opposed to be a central figure in a 24-man raid that happened over the course of the relaunch of the game and we ended things with a tearful goodbye.
So if Yoshida is looking through past expansions to pluck a new story thread, i doubt it will be the dragon we never thought about before we had a chance to talk to them or after we walked away from them. So i stand by my prediction she will stay in limbo.
More than likely, they're looking into the HW raids and trying to see what characters or story threads will come from that; the alliance raid dealing with the voidsent is probably much more likely than anything, as we have been dealing with the 13thd world (the void) since the game's relaunch in one form or another; be it the crystal tower (and cloud of darkness) or Unukalhai who came from the 13th world via Elidibus saving them, Diablos and possibly Ultima the High Seraph (story connections between her and Unukalhai exposition)... Especially now that we know what the 13th world is in the cosmology of the game world, how it was created.

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Back when HW was current who Midgardsormr's brood were, what they looked like, where they were at, what relevance they would have in the story....these were HUGE talking points in the community, and there was even official artwork released showing all seven dragons with their names, including the ones we haven't seen yet. I think it's fair to say the whole "thing" with Midgarsormr and his children is far from "one and done" just yet. And if you want another recent example of obscure past things from HW coming back again for more resolution because G'raha is too big (even though I completely forgot exactly what his deal was beyond being frozen in the Crystal Tower), just look at the Firmament and those NPC's that came back to talk to us and tell us about what they've been up to since we recruited them for Vishap. Remember them? I didn't! But SE did.

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Originally Posted by Espritduo

Back when HW was current who Midgardsormr's brood were, what they looked like, where they were at, what relevance they would have in the story....these were HUGE talking points in the community, and there was even official artwork released showing all seven dragons with their names, including the ones we haven't seen yet. I think it's fair to say the whole "thing" with Midgarsormr and his children is far from "one and done" just yet. And if you want another recent example of obscure past things from HW coming back again for more resolution because G'raha is too big (even though I completely forgot exactly what his deal was beyond being frozen in the Crystal Tower), just look at the Firmament and those NPC's that came back to talk to us and tell us about what they've been up to since we recruited them for Vishap. Remember them? I didn't! But SE did.

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I didn't say that SQEX literally forgets that npcs exist and won't use them in the future. I simply mean that i don't believe that a character we had a 10min conversation will be part of the foundation of an expansion if he's looking through HW. Is it possible they'll go back to the dragons? Maybe, but i feel its more likely that they would be going back to the larger set pieces like everything that that dealt with the void before going back to an dragon that's keeping herself in the proverbial corner and didn't have a large impact on the story. In the whole saga, she was literally a footnote that no one mentioned to anyone after leaving that island of Azys Lla.

what about her mate could he not convince her. i wonder if we could get him to convince her now that he at peace. we able convince her brother that war wasn't going bring end to war were we not. the big white dragon. i don't think she beyond reach if her brother wasn't

make me wonder were is Estinen right now with what yoshi p said

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

what about her mate could he not convince her. i wonder if we could get him to convince her now that he at peace. we able convince her brother that war wasn't going bring end to war were we not. the big white dragon. i don't think she beyond reach if her brother wasn't

make me wonder were is Estinen right now with what yoshi p said

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Wasn't...Bahamut her mate? Am I misremembering?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Wasn't...Bahamut her mate? Am I misremembering?

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Her Beloved is Bahamut, the non primal one that we have never seen outside artwork, we could guess Primal Bahamut might be a 1 for 1 but we can't say for certain at this point.

Tiamat is remaining put unless someone forces her out, her mindset is set in stone that she needs to eternally repent for summoning Primal Bahamut in her grief, there is no way anyone can convince her given how long she has put herself through what she has.

If Tiamat returns, it is by force, she will not leave her 'captivity' willingly, an act like that is not something we traditionally do more like a villain thing especially when we have just left her there for 2 wars and a shard world hopping.

YoshiP did warn us in the live letter than we may want to start brushing up on our HW lore - and that lore heavily involved the dragon broods.

If we end up going to Meracydia and discover some threat involving the brood Tiamat left behind, especially if that threat was somehow related to her pact with the Ascians, I could see her releasing herself to go deal with it as another form of atonement.

There's also Midgardsormr's pact with Hydaelyn. He and the eggs he carried were given sanctuary in exchange for protecting whatever lies under Silvertear Falls. He's currently at sleep to recover from the encounter with Omega. If there's a new threat to Silvertear Falls, would his children feel bound to provide that protection in his absence? If so, that could rouse Tiamat.

I think she could be made to see we able bring end to dragon war which the Ishgard thought was impossible. we able rouse her brother to fight Nidhogg see dragon aren't as set in stone by way of they will as the claim to be.

i hope we get dragonling companion one hope Midgarsormr is get ready for his next stage of growth hehe

i miss his kind

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

I think she could be made to see we able bring end to dragon war which the Ishgard thought was impossible. we able rouse her brother to fight Nidhogg see dragon aren't as set in stone by way of they will as the claim to be.

i hope we get dragonling companion one hope Midgarsormr is get ready for his next stage of growth hehe

i miss his kind

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Why would that matter to her? She didnt care about the Dragonsong War - keep in mind that what happend to her happend during the Third Astra Era (aka: Allagan times) which was five millenia before our time right now. I couldnt find out when excatly Tiamat was imprisoned, but I suppose its pretty save to say that it happend at least more than four millenia ago. When the Dragonsond War started, she had already stayed there for over three millenia. That war has nothing to do with her - except for the parallels between mortal men (Allag and Isgard) being cruel towards dragons.

Given the parallel between her and her brother Nidhogg - she is consumed by grief; he was consumed by hate; both over the loss of one of their own (though it in case of Tiamat and Bahamut even more brutal, considering they were mates and how she summoned this twisted version of him - something she feels great guilt about) - you might have had a point, if we had been able to "heal" Nidhoggs grief.
But we didnt. We didnt end the war by reconciling Nidhogg with Ishgard, we ended it by slaughtering him. We're not a "solver of dragon problems", we're a solver of "problems mortals have with dragons". Why would us killing another one of her brothers change her mind about the punishment she choose? Specially after this punishment lasted over four millenia?

Its been my understanding so far that shes written in a way that no one - not even her own father, another basically immortal being, can actually grasp how deep her grief and sorrow are - so its understandble to look for "loopholes", for ideas and ways how she could be convinced otherwise. And as I mentioned before: Personally, I'd wish for her to be free and happy - but within the story I actually dont want to see that happening (unless maybe for a very, very good reason that is unrelated to someone convincing her that shes suffered enough - I could maybe accept something like Midgardsormr calling for her aid in a great time of need during a final battle against Garlemald, but even that would be a stretch).
As the story/lore stands right now, shes been there for millenia - the world has changed around her multiple times, she must have seen multiple Warriors of Light come and go (though non visiting her, obviously). She lost a sister and another brother - one whom she didnt aid in his thousand year war.
I dont see anything changing her mind - and certainly not us. We might be pretty special - but I dont consider our character to be special enough to convince her to give up on her grief after so many millenia. I repeat what I said: It would cheapen her character. It would along the lines of writing about a severly depressed character (and I mean "depression" in a clinical sense here) and have that character cured by someone saying "Have you tried being happy?"

In regards to little dragons: I recommend picking up the new custom deliveries!

In regards to companions: I'm pretty sure we're not going to see another pet-class and since they've never released a different companion other than the chocobo, I doubt we'll be seeing one there... maybe a Squadron or Trust-member one day? Though kinda unlikely aswell, probably...

i more like companion dragonling myself this way every one can have dragonling.

was not Hraesveglr also consume by greif we able pull him out of it kick and scream as much a dragon kick and scream be it. Hraeveglr lost Shiva how did were able to get him to see there was another way if he wasn't consume by his lost
t

we have not two dragon but three

Hraesveglr consume by greif and lost of his human lover
Nidhogg consume a desire of revenger
finally Taimat consume by greif


we killed almost all the ascians and those responible for action of creation of behamut for most part
we dragged Hraesveglr out his grief and we have awake Midgsormr Tiamat maybe a challange but yet still possible she has realize she just as much pawn in ascian games as her mate was and as all ishgard were as well of dragon kind was.
killed the puppetmaster in this is big step in help her overcome her grief and help realize that she can be free of aswell help Hraesveglr

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

since the defeat of all the ascains

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Bad news, OP...

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

it kind sad that she chosen to remian. i wish her father could convince she face enough punishment

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I wouldn't worry too much. She is a hanging plot point for whenever the story requires.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

was not Hraesveglr also consume by greif we able pull him out of it kick and scream as much a dragon kick and scream be it. Hraeveglr lost Shiva how did were able to get him to see there was another way if he wasn't consume by his lost
t

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I dare to say that Hraesvelgrs situation with Shiva was a bit different - they both knew the whole time that she would die, so she requested to be devoured by him and now their souls are bound to each other. Apparently this bound with Shiva is the only thing that keeps Hraesvelgr from joining Nidhogg in his pursuit to wipe Ishgard out.
Its not so much us who are responsible, its Shiva (not the primal, but the real elezen - what Ysayle is summoning is not his beloved).

Tiamat on the other hand lost her brother and mate who could have been with her til the end of time - and more so: She is the one responsible for summoning him as a primal! (Even though she was tricked by the Ascians, shes still blaming herself - maybe for the summoning, maybe for believing them, probably for both).

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

we have not two dragon but three

Hraesveglr consume by greif and lost of his human lover
Nidhogg consume a desire of revenger
finally Taimat consume by greif

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Yes, and we helped neither dragon - not Nidhogg, not Hraesvelgr.
Hraesvelgr is not consumed by grief, not in the same way as Tiamat is - or in the same way as Nidhogg is consumed by rage. Just to repeat what I just stated: He didnt lose his elezen lover, he devoured her and now her soul is always with him - and he did so at her request, because they both knew that they couldnt be together forever otherwise.
This bond is what keeps him from falling into a similar rage than Nidhogg.

...and even if we did manage to "help" Hraesvelgr (at least Ysayle must have said something to him to convince him to help us): We utterly failed when it comes to Nidhogg. And not only we, Hraesvelgr too. Consumed by his rage, blinded by his rage, Nidhogg was not able to see things differently.

So yes, we have three dragons:
Hraesvelgr who is "stable" through his bound to Shiva.
Nidhogg who is so consumed by his rage that the only solution was to kill him - after even Hraesvelgr failed to convince him to change his ways.
And Tiamat who is so consumed by her grief that not even her own father could convince her that shes suffered enough and who remains in Azys Lla.

So far we did not nothing that would qualify us to free her after all the millenia shes spend there - I believe you were on the right track before, when you said that maybe her mate could. But since Bahamut is dead and summoning him as a primal is part of her misery, I'm not sure how that could work - maybe if we find a way to summon his actual spirit or something like that, if thats even possible...

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

we killed almost all the ascians and those responible for action of creation of behamut for most part
we dragged Hraesveglr out his grief and we have awake Midgsormr Tiamat maybe a challange but yet still possible she has realize she just as much pawn in ascian games as her mate was and as all ishgard were as well of dragon kind was.
killed the puppetmaster in this is big step in help her overcome her grief and help realize that she can be free of aswell help Hraesveglr

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She knows she was a pawn. She knows that the Ascians used her and tricked her.
I mean, she isnt staying there out of fear and she doesnt seek revenge - I dont think dead Ascians really make a big difference to her, since shes still blaming herself for the summoning. Killing the Ascians wont undo that - and it wont bring Bahamut back either. She still did the horrible thing she blames herself for - even if the people who orchestrated it are gone.
I dont see how killing the Ascians is helping her - unless I missed some new dialouge she has where she comments on us wiping them out (I'll check on her later...).

...again... I'd be really upset if they just waved millenia of (personal) grief and suffering by having us appear on the screen. The only way I see her go "free" is by order of Midgardsormr whos calling for her aid. (Or by someone setting her free by killing her.)

As far as Tiamat goes, I think she's long overdue for having the Garleans bungle with her.

Also, I view her as a plot hole, since Thordan was in Azys Lla to gain more power, you'd think he'd have taken an easy score of more First Brood Eyes. She probably wouldn't have resisted.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Also, I view her as a plot hole, since Thordan was in Azys Lla to gain more power, you'd think he'd have taken an easy score of more First Brood Eyes. She probably wouldn't have resisted.

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I don't think so. She's keeping herself locked there out of penance, so if anything she really doesn't want to be complicit in creating further tragedy by letting her power fall into mortal hands.


As for the general conversation of whether there'd be any chance of rousing her to action? The only way I could see it happen is to prevent something that would be a greater affront to the true Bahamut's memory. And then she still might go straight back to Azys Lla and figure out how to get herself back into the shackles.