How do you think Eden will proceed?

Spoilers of 5.3
How do you think they will continue Eden raid without Thancred? Do you think Ryne and Gaia will continue on their own? Will they introduce a new character to help them both at Eden? It seems this storyline has become sidelined with new things going on at the Source.

It was always sidelined, it's the raid hehe. It'll be focusing Ryne, Gaia, and the WoL. I think we'll get two fights based on Light, and two fights based on Darkness for E9~12. Could possibly have some other NPCs involved if Ryne convinces anyone else on The First to go with her, such as Lyna from the Crystarium or maybe one of the Fanow sisters.

Of course, they could pull a completely unforeseeable twist, something like other people traveled out in The Empty and found Eden, so now we gotta save them/undo any tom foolery they caused.

It's not entirely an open slate, but there's still plenty of possibilities.

Alright, it's time for me to write fanfiction and pass it off as wild speculation!

At the start, the Warrior of Light will meet up with Ryne and Gaia and catch up with them. Ryne will reveal that things in the Empty have taken a turn for the worse—when we arrive there to see what she means, we'll discover that snow and ice have overtaken all signs of life and activity at the campsite—a result of Ice aether running rampant.

Ryne takes responsibility for this, suggesting it's due to her failure to control Shiva. But rather than immediately rush to fix things, she, Gaia, and the Warrior of Light will discuss what, exactly, the problem with Shiva was. Multiple angles will be examined, from Ryne's lack of the Echo, to the lack of an external controller on the primal's aether levels, to a slavish devotion to "accurate primals" over "primals that will do what we need".

Finally, Gaia will present a solution: They summon an original primal embodying all elements at once (think Bahamut), with herself serving as the vessel. Ryne is opposed, not wanting to risk Gaia's life, but Gaia talks her into it. And so we go along with Gaia's plan, with all three heroes contributing to the "idea" of the new primal to be summoned.

BOSS 1: Heritor of Chaos - Griever
Music: Maybe I'm A Lion remix

Gaia, as it turns out, doesn't so much control Griever as keep it from running wild. But she does manage that, and with her and Ryne's help we slay the primal, releasing its aether out into the Empty. Gaia remains inside Eden to catch her breath—the fight has taken a lot out of her. Ryne and the Warrior of Light head outside to check on their handiwork, and Ryne is delighted to see that life has not only returned to the campsite, but is actually spreading—flowers are in bloom and such, and the area that's alive is much larger than before.

And then they hear a scream over their linkpearls—speaking of which, they really ought to have some—and rush back into Eden just in time to catch an Ascian seizing control of Gaia's body, not unlike how Lahabrea took over Thancred's long ago. The Ascian reveals herself to be Altima, and thanks the duo for giving her the chance to seize one of her missing fragments—Gaia's soul is a part of her own, in other words. The origin of Gaia's name is also revealed here: Much like Emet-Selch, Altima is the title of her office and her true name is Gaia.

She uses Eden to draw forth a massive amount of aether from the land, then uses that aether to tear open a voidgate in the sky, allowing the voidsent Erebos (see: Eden's Gate fight vs. the Voidwalker) into the First. The Warrior of Light has to fight it off.

Boss 2: Primordial Voidsent - Erebos
Music: Same old Force Your Way remix

While we were fighting Erebos, Ryne was fighting with Altima. She managed to drive her deeper into Eden, but was unable to defeat her or free Gaia from her control. Ryne brings up the possibility of summoning a primal to give them a better chance against her, but is also worried that it'll run wild the way Griever and Shiva did. The Warrior of Light reassures her, and Ryne bids us go after Altima while she prepares.

Boss 3: Oracle of Darkness - Altima
Music: A remix/original song, akin to Return to Oblivion, but possibly based on one of the songs associated with the Ascians Tomorrow and Tomorrow remix, maybe?

Despite her appearance and "title", it's Altima in control of Gaia here. But after we've defeated her in combat, Shiva in Hydaelyn form arrives on the scene and attempts to forcibly separate Altima from Gaia. Given her appearance and behavior, it's clear that Ryne is acting as her vessel—and that she seems to have gotten the summoning down right this time. Even though she's not in control, Shiva is acting along the lines of Ryne's own wishes and beliefs.

Though she's able to destroy the means by which Altima is controlling Gaia's body, Altima has one last trick up her sleeve: She transforms in a similar fashion to Emet-Selch "becoming" Hades or Lahabrea and Igeyorhm fusing to become Ascian Prime. Gaia is unwillingly absorbed into this new form, and though she's desperately fighting off Altima's will from the inside, it's only a matter of time before she's forcibly rejoined into the Ascian.

Boss 4: ??? - Gaia
Music: The Extreme remix

This boss will resemble Ultimecia's final form in FF8, but with Altima as the top half and Gaia as the bottom half. Shiva (Hydaelyn) will also carry over into this fight, assisting us in trying to save Gaia while defeating Altima. Once the fight's over and Altima's on the verge of true death, she'll let go and allow herself to be absorbed into Gaia, becoming one with the girl's soul instead of the other way around. Shiva (Hydaelyn) will also dissipate herself, content that she has served her purpose.

After the fact, Ryne will reveal that Eden itself helped guide the process of summoning Shiva—her goal of teaching Eden how to manage the Empty without her was a success as well. With the threat to their world gone and Eden able to carry out the work unaided, she accepts this as proof that her duty as the Oracle of Light is over and resolves to travel to the Source alongside Gaia in the future.

Ryne has the Echo though.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ryne has the Echo though.

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5.3 spoilers, natch:

https://i.imgur.com/ndmf5en.png
https://i.imgur.com/nK3ibQH.png

This conversation takes place after 5.2, wherein Ryne bore witness to the Starshower at the Crystarium alongside the other Scions, the Warrior of Light, and a dozen or so NPCs. The Warrior of Light heard Hydaelyn's voice there, as did everyone who awakened to the Echo in that scene. Ryne did not. It's surprising, I know—I thought she absolutely had to have the Echo, being Minfilia's reincarnation and all. But apparently she doesn't have it.

I'll get back to you on, but I'm pretty sure somewhere throughout the story, other Echo blessed people like Arenvald claim that though they have The Echo, they've not heard Hydaelyn speak to them. I can't go CS hunting because I'm still finishing up stuff at work.

Whether or not that's true, Ryne was present for the very scene in which Hydaelyn was revealed to be indiscriminately broadcasting Her voice to anyone who could hear Her. If Ryne had the Echo, she'd have heard, just like everyone else with the Echo in that scene. And she didn't hear Hydaelyn in that scene, by her own admission. And it's not like this instance doesn't count; There are numerous examples of NPCs in the Crystarium commenting on having heard Her voice. Even one of the children from the 5.3 quests with Riqi-Tio say they heard Her voice, though they didn't understand what she was saying.

Unless Ryne's lying for no reason, or Hydaelyn is arbitrarily blocking her from hearing Her voice (again, for no reason), she just does not have the Echo.

The inability to hear Hydaelyn doesn't necessarily imply lack of the Echo. Even with having that cutscene in the game. The Echo existed before Hydaelyn, and it will continue existing should she ever perish.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The inability to hear Hydaelyn doesn't necessarily imply lack of the Echo.

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It absolutely does, at least in that scene. But no matter how many times I reiterate that Hydaelyn isn't picking and choosing who hears Her in that scene, it seems you won't accept that.

EDIT: Is your objection based on the fact that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn, but something intrinsic to those who possess it? Because if so, that is not contradictory to what I'm saying.

So let me ask you this: Why do you think Ryne has the Echo? She's never demonstrated the use of it, intentionally or otherwise.

EDIT 02: And just to be sure, I went back and checked the one scene that initially convinced me she did have the Echo: Crossroads. She clutches her forehead, just like the Warrior of Light, and then there's an Echo flashback of the Flood of Light overtaking Amh Areng. Except Ryne never comments on seeing this. Not during her meeting with Minfilia, and not after. And whereas the player remained rooted in place—as is typical of when the Echo suddenly smacks us over the head with a vision—Ryne continued on without the Warrior of Light, only to collapse and apparently lose consciousness a fair distance ahead of us. In other words, she didn't have a vision. The source of her headache was something else—something that happened to her the last time she was there, in fact. It's a remarkably deceptive scene, and I love it to bits for what it does for both her character and Minfilia's, but this is the only scene in the entirety of Shadowbringers I can think of where Ryne looks like she has the Echo, and that's because it was intentionally set up to mislead the viewer.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

It absolutely does, at least in that scene. But no matter how many times I reiterate that Hydaelyn isn't picking and choosing who hears Her in that scene, it seems you won't accept that.

EDIT: Is your objection based on the fact that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn, but something intrinsic to those who possess it? Because if so, that is not contradictory to what I'm saying.

So let me ask you this: Why do you think Ryne has the Echo? She's never demonstrated the use of it, intentionally or otherwise.

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The scene in Amh Areng where we go to meet Minfillia for the last time, we get an Echo vision of her last stand. In that moment it appears the then Minifilia appears to experience the same vision.

EDIT: Well it appears you have come to a different conclusion on that scene, but yeah that is the only other time we see any hint of the Echo in her.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

The scene in Amh Areng where we go to meet Minfillia for the last time, we get an Echo vision of her last stand. In that moment it appears the then Minifilia appears to experience the same vision.

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See my previous post. The Warrior of Light has an Echo vision. Ryne only clutches her head, and the next time the scene moves back to Amh Araeng, she's suddenly a fair distance away and needs to be woken up.

EDIT: Yes, it's kind of annoying, lol.

But seriously, I can't believe she possesses the Echo—there is too much evidence that she doesn't, and the only things that have ever suggested she does are one misleading scene and one misleading bit of trivia—that Ryne is "Minfilia's reincarnation". The reason I say it's misleading is because Minfilia calls out her own existence as being akin to an Ascian's during the Echo vision in Il Mheg. Ascians don't reincarnate. They possess people, and those people don't need to have a fragment of the Ascian's soul for them to do it.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

See my previous post. The Warrior of Light has an Echo vision. Ryne only clutches her head, and the next time the scene moves back to Amh Araeng, she's suddenly a fair distance away and needs to be woken up.

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Don't you just hate replying only to see the person you are replying to has edited their statement to account for what you are stating just before you replied?

I'm absolutely expecting Ultimecia to be the final boss. Not just because of the FF8 references in this raid series, but also because Gaia's magic has that time-delayed stuff.

I'm hoping the raid will clarify what Eden is and why it activated after Ardbert defeated Mitron and Loghrif. That's the biggest unresolved plot element in Shadowbringers.

In regards to Ryne and the Echo -

To be fair, we don't hear Hydaelyn's voice during Elidibus' little stunt at the Crystarium either. (At least no dialogue box pops up telling us about it.) The only reason we can tell it's Hydaelyn calling the newly-awakened Echo users is because they repeat her catchphrase and start talking about her voice.

Nor do we hear Hydaelyn during the Amaurot dungeon, a literal recreation of the Final Days. Were anything to elicit her call, that would be it.

From the sounds of it Hydaelyn's call only comes forward when someone first awakens - like an automated voicemail. If Ryne's was "Minfilia" for as long as she can remember, it stands to reason she wouldn't remember awakening - and given Hydaelyn has been practically silent since 2.55, likely hasn't spoken to Ryne (or Minfilia, if Ryne was still conscious when Minfilia was acting through her).

So I'd put Ryne as "plausibly" having the Echo (but if she's a shard counterpart to Minfilia there's no doubt). Regardless, she has to be immune to tempering through either her blessings as the Oracle or have the Echo... otherwise E8 is even more of a bad idea than it already was, and to our knowledge she's tempered by Eden Shiva now.

Moving forward!

There are a number of unanswered questions that need to be resolved by the 5.4 series, namely pertaining to Eden's origin and purpose, why it initiated the Flood when it did, and what Gaia's connection to it all is. As for things to appear, I fully expect Griever to show up at some point (given his connection to Squall and Ultimecia, the characters Gaia seems to have taken the most influence from) and will be a bit disappointed if we don't go up against Ultimecia in some fashion (if only for a face-melting remix of The Extreme from Soken). Past that, couldn't say.

Maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but if Eden could be sent to the 13th could it be used to save that shard much like The Empty?

But for sure, we fight the voice that Gaia hears (I think she calls it a faerie?) who is either Ultimecia or something very Ultimecia like. We save The First's Empty and its going to recover the planet as a whole.

Note sure this plot line will really give hints beyond Gaia and Ryne will live happily ever after looking after The First, but I highly suspect that Ryne will be Hydaelyn's vehicle of communication in 6.0 because I doubt we have the show down with Zodiark without talking with Hydaelyn first.

Gaia will most likely transform into Ultimecia paralleling Ryne's Shiva transformation somehow.

im so ready to hear The Extreme in soken form

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but if Eden could be sent to the 13th could it be used to save that shard much like The Empty?

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Folks have been debating this possibility since Eden was first revealed. It's all speculation at this point, though; nothing in-game directly states whether it has this ability. There's still a lot of mystery around Eden, though.

I personally consider it likely, and it may even be the use for which the Asicans originally created it. They may well have planned to use it to correct Igyorhym's long-ago mistake, and then repurposed it for use on the First to hasten the Flood of Light. If it WAS meant to be a tool to calm the raging Astral Aether of the Void and render that Aether usable again, it's possible that Ryne or Gaia or both will take Eden to the Void at the end of the raid cycle to put it to work there.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

5.3 spoilers, natch:

https://i.imgur.com/ndmf5en.png
https://i.imgur.com/nK3ibQH.png

This conversation takes place after 5.2, wherein Ryne bore witness to the Starshower at the Crystarium alongside the other Scions, the Warrior of Light, and a dozen or so NPCs. The Warrior of Light heard Hydaelyn's voice there, as did everyone who awakened to the Echo in that scene. Ryne did not. It's surprising, I know—I thought she absolutely had to have the Echo, being Minfilia's reincarnation and all. But apparently she doesn't have it.

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Ryne can't have the echo. If she had it she could not have been possessed by Minfilia to begin with. It's why the Ascians don't simply bodyjack the WOL/D.