AST 5.3 Sleeve Draw and Controller Complaints

PLEASE stop saying that the change for Sleeve Draw is because of us controller players wanting it. I'm seeing many people say this, but I don't know anybody who made this complaint. This is something that a minority of players said or complained about with minimal AST controller players having issues.

I, as a controller player, did NOT ask for this change and this change on AST hurts me just as any keyboard player. I don't want to be unsympathetic to those who had issues with the previous AST players using controller, but did you consider practicing more?

This change is cruel and unusual punishment for AST players as we are the only healer to be critically punished to oblivion by losing all three seals on the rDPS side.

Unless you are a controller player with legitimate complaints about using a controller while playing AST, please stop using us controller players as your excuse for why SE, again, has made a critical error with class changes.

I think the complaints might not be so harsh if the 3 stacks were spread out over the course of 180 seconds instead of being stacked at the same time.

A simple change to the cooldown of sleeve to be 60 seconds wouldn't be too bad. I think that would solve the problem while being a middle ground for people to come to. not sure though since my AST is only lv 63 so i never encountered that problem.

(controller player here too, its WAY too comfy to give up for mkb.)

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Originally Posted by TheDao

PLEASE stop saying that the change for Sleeve Draw is because of us controller players wanting it. I'm seeing many people say this, but I don't know anybody who made this complaint. This is something that a minority of players said or complained about with minimal AST controller players having issues.

I, as a controller player, did NOT ask for this change and this change on AST hurts me just as any keyboard player. I don't want to be unsympathetic to those who had issues with the previous AST players using controller, but did you consider practicing more?

This change is cruel and unusual punishment for AST players as we are the only healer to be critically punished to oblivion by losing all three seals on the rDPS side.

Unless you are a controller player with legitimate complaints about using a controller while playing AST, please stop using us controller players as your excuse for why SE, again, has made a critical error with class changes.

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except that is exactly what was being complained about, even on this forums.

Yeah, by a very vocal minority.

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Originally Posted by TheDao

Yeah, by a very vocal minority.

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If that vocal minority is the only one speaking then who does SE listen to when they want to up Ast numbers(which was the least played healer by a fairly high amount prior, yet have to wait and see if these changes actually change participation).

People should whether they like or hate something be vocal about it because just doing it when you hate leads to constant back and forth changes.

Personally I prefer this version rather than the prior one but it most definitely can be improved further.

Also controller player here did some savage with it, hated it, just because I can do workarounds does not mean I like the skill that forces it, i wanted Sleeve Draw improved, it did, but it came at a weird cost so I think it most definitely can be improved further though I won't support anything that tries to bring the old version or add charges it just creates the hassle it used to, CD reduction sure got my vote for that or a way to quicker refresh outside combat for Draw all ears.


It was an issue for many players at least enough for SE to do something, didn't help Ast was the least played healer by a fair amount. Your biggest bet is that enough people complain AND participation remains as low as it has been else they will consider the change a success and move on from there. Wish you luck with that especially since Ast is now staying strong while having next to no issues that would alienate people anymore.

Also gotta love that it was all 3 HW jobs that got a huge design reboot on their core mechanic and Ast was the one people least wanted changed outta the 3 and boy does it show with the complaints since before 5.0.

SE cannot win here, ever, they made a radical design shift and they are stuck getting dragged all over the place because of it, someone is taking the Ast bullet this time it is the group that liked old Sleeve Draw, bet next time it'll be the group that likes mp.

Just discard 5.0 Ast and revert it back to 4.0 Ast.....and while we're at it, let's get 4.0 Sch back and leave Whm as is

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Originally Posted by TheDao

PLEASE stop saying that the change for Sleeve Draw is because of us controller players wanting it. I'm seeing many people say this, but I don't know anybody who made this complaint. This is something that a minority of players said or complained about with minimal AST controller players having issues.

I, as a controller player, did NOT ask for this change and this change on AST hurts me just as any keyboard player. I don't want to be unsympathetic to those who had issues with the previous AST players using controller, but did you consider practicing more?

This change is cruel and unusual punishment for AST players as we are the only healer to be critically punished to oblivion by losing all three seals on the rDPS side.

Unless you are a controller player with legitimate complaints about using a controller while playing AST, please stop using us controller players as your excuse for why SE, again, has made a critical error with class changes.

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You not knowing anyone is merely subjective. I, on the other hand, know several who despised it. One of whom raids at an Ultimate level. So it wasn't merely "casual players complaining." This is why anecdotes aren't good basis for evaluation. They will differ depending on your social circle.

With that said, I do think they overshot the landing. Making Sleeve 120 seconds and giving it a charge would be a suitable compromise. But pretending like this change came out of nowhere just shows you aren't around the forums or reddit throughout early Shadowbringers. Sleeve Draw was a huge point of contention alongside the new card system as a whole (which people still hate), Astro's significantly weaker healing and abysmal MP economy.

Honestly when I heard that they were "looking into sleeve draw" and that it need a QoL to help assist in it's usage. I thought to myself huh...maybe it will just grant us 3 of each seal...BAM! And then lay down the Divination. But extend the cool down timer for sleeve draw to 240 sec. A Instant build + Divination, and then a forced build with redraw effects + Divination. Sprinkle some minor arcana in there and I call this fixed.


BUTTTT NO!! "You get ONE card...NEXT!!!!"

I like astro being the most complex healer in the game...but this is rough. I do like the idea of first draw is 100% the seal you need, use 2nd draw as my redraw phase to get the seal I need ( higher chance of getting seal I need), and 3rd phase is pop sleeve draw. Divination.

And I try to use 3 minor arcana after that now. If I play the cards it messes up sleeve draw lining up with the next build. I don't think the dev's meant for the skills to line up at all from what i'm gathering. This was intentional. Annoying.

I am a controller player and complained about it.

Not because it was impossible to use Sleeve Draw properly, but I hated it, it was really annoying and clunky to use, and I detested every time it came off cooldown.

I'm not saying it's perfect now. But it IS less clunky, so it IS an improvement in that regard.

I'm also generally not against AST being more complex. But I am against it being more complex simply BY being tedious to use and weirdly designed.

Make us think which card to use when, optimizing DPS burst phases to the second, but make it not by having us press like 500 buttons in 30 seconds every 3 minutes.

Personally, I'm using AST again now. But I'm also hoping it'll get more fun again next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

If that vocal minority is the only one speaking then who does SE listen to when they want to up Ast numbers(which was the least played healer by a fairly high amount prior, yet have to wait and see if these changes actually change participation).

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Just if you're curious, currently AST is tied with SCH. Though it's still early in the patch and we can't be sure how the numbers will settle, it does seem to have increased the popularity of AST by at least a bit.

Clearly this is a nerf in rdps but a fairly good QOL update. To return some of its rdps the devs could buff it by making a charge action with 2 charges on a CD of 90 sec each. I doubt it'll go back to 3 cards but thats a possibility with 60 sec CD. Either way I prefer this over the previous clunky version.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Clearly this is a nerf in rdps but a fairly good QOL update. To return some of its rdps the devs could buff it by making a charge action with 2 charges on a CD of 90 sec each. I doubt it'll go back to 3 cards but thats a possibility with 60 sec CD. Either way I prefer this over the previous clunky version.

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AST still outdamages every tank, and every non-AST healer on the percentile scale. It does not need a DPS buff.

Of course, someone will note that AKSHUALLY there's a tiny number of white mages in the world that can outdamage AST. Yes, true, but they're so few that even at 99th percentile (ie a real sample size) AST is still stronger.

Hi, I’m one of those controller players that asked for the QoL. o/

I think old Sleeve Draw was interesting for the first few pulls, but after the 30th+ wipe during prog it gets old fast. I’ll take the rDPS nerf if it means that I don’t have to break my hands for every opener. Honestly, the nerf is pretty reasonable considering the amount of MP sustain we got. Being able to get rid of excess Piety means more sub stats to work with for pDPS and healing.

Controller users: " I dont want to git gud" just make the game easy af. Why not just using 5 skills so it would easily fit on a controller?

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Originally Posted by Shieky

Controller users: " I dont want to git gud" just make the game easy af. Why not just using 5 skills so it would easily fit on a controller?

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Perhaps people simply didn't like how hectic and aggressive the opener was for AST?

Even with the change, AST is still one of the best healers with high APM. Like the OP said, it wasn't just controller users that complained.

Simply put, a lot of AST mains coming from the 4.0 version were turned off by what Sleeve Draw became.

Also it's not wrong for SE to want a middle ground between controller and kbm users. Like AdamFyi said, after awhile, redoing the opener would be incredibly taxing and personally would rather they not return to that.

As it stands, it's a guaranteed seal for the cost of 2 extra cards. The CD should be lower to 2mins to match Divination but I'm glad the skill isn't clunky to use anymore.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

Perhaps people simply didn't like how hectic and aggressive the opener was for AST?

Even with the change, AST is still one of the best healers with high APM. Like the OP said, it wasn't just controller users that complained.

Simply put, a lot of AST mains coming from the 4.0 version were turned off by what Sleeve Draw became.

Also it's not wrong for SE to want a middle ground between controller and kbm users. Like AdamFyi said, after awhile, redoing the opener would be incredibly taxing and personally would rather they not return to that.

As it stands, it's a guaranteed seal for the cost of 2 extra cards. The CD should be lower to 2mins to match Divination but I'm glad the skill isn't clunky to use anymore.

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I'm seeing a lot of agreement within the community that the next step is to lower the cooldown. I like it! It's realistic that it might actually be implemented, and I agree that the current version of the opener feels like it's higher QoL. If they make up the difference of some of those lost cards by reducing the cooldown, then you prevent so many front-loaded cards from bloating the opener with a lot of extra GCDs. Hell, they should've done that in the first place, I think.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Just if you're curious, currently AST is tied with SCH. Though it's still early in the patch and we can't be sure how the numbers will settle, it does seem to have increased the popularity of AST by at least a bit.

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If that holds through 5.4(since we are in a catch up patch with no Ultimate so we'll see how it stands in 5.4) then the change will be classed as a success, I certainly think it is better than what it was and I'm all for lowering the CD of Sleeve Draw.

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Originally Posted by Shieky

Controller users: " I dont want to git gud" just make the game easy af. Why not just using 5 skills so it would easily fit on a controller?

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Look at me folks. I overcame bad game design, I'm clearly better then the rest of you.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Look at me folks. I overcame bad game design, I'm clearly better then the rest of you.

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Why exactly is it bad game design?
Im mean im not completely against simplicity but why oversimplify things?

I also dont think all roles should be perfectly balanced so everyone can play them, there definitely should be some "skillcap"..
It should be like: "Oh you got some skill? then try this job", what would be the problem in that approach.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Look at me folks. I overcame bad game design, I'm clearly better then the rest of you.

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Right? Not to get ugly or mean but saying those things are rather tone-deaf to those who did struggle with how Sleeve Draw originally was. It sounds pretty entitled to say that "I was good at it why aren't you?" Of course everyone has different tastes in what jobs feel like to them but to make a point on controller users being lazy or catered to is rather disgusting. This isn't an FPS, using a kbm doesn't make you better than a controller player.

Sleeve Draw was bad design and a major turn off because it's too hectic for some. There's a reason why people requested it other than the good ole "I want to be lazy." It was a hassle to use and just like how SE is clutching WHM's mobility by the throat, the change did more to improve the job rather than take away.

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Originally Posted by Shieky

Why exactly is it bad game design?

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Why is it NOT bad game design if you have to put in a lot more effort to flawlessly execute the former AST opener on controller, compared to mouse and keyboard? Why is it NOT bad game design while one it overly clunky while the other is not? Why is it not bad game design when your APM rockets every time Sleeve Draw is up just because you choose to play on controller?

Playing with controller instead of mouse and keyboard should NOT be detrimental. There are already a few disadvantages, like in targeting players from other groups in Alliance Raids takes longer, but usually they're quite even. Playing one job on controller vs. mouse/keyboard shouldn't have an advantage or disadvantage.

Because that its completely normal that different input types gives you specific advantages,literally ALL games have this kind of "problem" and dumbing down game mechanics just because they are harder to execute on input x is just as bad.

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Originally Posted by Shieky

Controller users: " I dont want to git gud" just make the game easy af. Why not just using 5 skills so it would easily fit on a controller?

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I'm not a controller player.
I like clicky AST
I prefer AST because it's more busy than the two other.
I like AST because of sheer amount of oGCD heal he has that, once properly timed over a long run, make this healer shine.
I'm all for the "git gud", that's what I also try to do every time I play.
I consider myself a good player. Not the very best, but a good average level.
I could manage Sleeve Draw, yet

I didn't like Sleeve Draw.
If you play correctly and align everything, you didn't only have sleeve draw. But Draw + Sleeve draw, which mean 4 cards to align on the 3/6/9 min burst.
I never played in mid/hardcore static with google spreadsheet for every single mitigation cooldown to use per min.
So I had to deal with what I had with the best I could.

180s Sleeve Draw was an absolute mess, even worse when you kept Lightspeed out of this window for mobility purpouse (such as Light Rampant on Shiva for example).
The Malefic => Card => Healing => Malefic felt stressful and too much at one precise time
Its window is reguraly when some heavy mechanic can happen, with mobility required or watching the arena for the safe spot/big raid wide aoe + another mechanic after
And as much as I somehow managed to it, rolling my eyes all over my screen felt tiring really.

So maybe in your eyes, that sounds to be bad. If so, so be it, I honestly don't care.
But I didn't like sleeve draw that much even if I like the clicky and complex aspect of AST.

And I honestly don't feel changing Sleeve made my AST less complex. Its essence is still there.

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Originally Posted by Shieky

Because that its completely normal that different input types gives you specific advantages,literally ALL games have this kind of "problem" and dumbing down game mechanics just because they are harder to execute on input x is just as bad.

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Eh, I’d say it’s more QoL than what you’re saying. It would be in poor taste for the devs to release a new job for the next expansion that only functions properly well with Controllers, and then tell Keyboard and Mouse players to just deal with it. Less ‘git gud’ and ‘oversimplifying’, and more ‘how feasible is this in the long run?’ kind of matter.

Controller players have to potentially do 5 to 7 inputs between GCDs (~1.5s) per Card because of target switching (and soft-targeting). And that’s just one Card. Imagine having to do this 5 times in every opener within the first five GCDs. The recent change doesn’t really fix the issues, but it nonetheless reduced the amount of buttons to press because theres 2 less cards to Play with.

I use controller, I'd been playing AST since it first came out. Let me tell you that this "fix" does not help those who play on gamepad at all. In fact, I don't even see how it's connected to the actual issue at hand.

Devs: please stop killing AST. Enough is enough.


I just want to enjoy my main class again.

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

I use controller, I'd been playing AST since it first came out. Let me tell you that this "fix" does not help those who play on gamepad at all. In fact, I don't even see how it's connected to the actual issue at hand.

Devs: please stop killing AST. Enough is enough.


I just want to enjoy my main class again.

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AST is kinda thriving tho???

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

AST is kinda thriving tho???

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If it's thriving now, then I can't wait to see how much better it does once its real issues get solved. It's got loads of room to improve still.

Don't post too much on here, but I had some input to this one. I too play with a controller. Prior to 5.3 and it is still useful now, I made macros for each member in my party for the play action. Like shown below.

/ac "Play" <2>

Each number is your party member. Meaning numbers 1-8 for full party. Helps alot since toggling can be hard on a controller.

As for Sleeve Draw, seems kinda lackluster for a 180 second cooldown. My thought would be to give it a 60 second cooldown, but maybe let it have 2 charges. I just feel the one card draw from Sleeve Draw is just blah. But that could just be me.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I'm not a controller player.
I like clicky AST
I prefer AST because it's more busy than the two other.
I like AST because of sheer amount of oGCD heal he has that, once properly timed over a long run, make this healer shine.
I'm all for the "git gud", that's what I also try to do every time I play.
I consider myself a good player. Not the very best, but a good average level.
I could manage Sleeve Draw, yet

I didn't like Sleeve Draw.
If you play correctly and align everything, you didn't only have sleeve draw. But Draw + Sleeve draw, which mean 4 cards to align on the 3/6/9 min burst.
I never played in mid/hardcore static with google spreadsheet for every single mitigation cooldown to use per min.
So I had to deal with what I had with the best I could.

180s Sleeve Draw was an absolute mess, even worse when you kept Lightspeed out of this window for mobility purpouse (such as Light Rampant on Shiva for example).
The Malefic => Card => Healing => Malefic felt stressful and too much at one precise time
Its window is reguraly when some heavy mechanic can happen, with mobility required or watching the arena for the safe spot/big raid wide aoe + another mechanic after
And as much as I somehow managed to it, rolling my eyes all over my screen felt tiring really.

So maybe in your eyes, that sounds to be bad. If so, so be it, I honestly don't care.
But I didn't like sleeve draw that much even if I like the clicky and complex aspect of AST.

And I honestly don't feel changing Sleeve made my AST less complex. Its essence is still there.

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Thank you for this well thought out post. It gives an overall picture of the class play, and maybe one other thing:

SE can make a class more complex than others in the same category. That class will suit people who like the increased activity, the additional actions required.
But don't expect that class to be a popular as its' fellows.

There are two directions to take.
1. SE base their view on equalising playing numbers of each class - in which case the more complex class(es) will be simplified to increase numbers.
2. SE base their view on having wider variations/complexity in class play - in which case the more complex class(es) will always have lesser numbers.

But you cannot have both.