Do you think henchmen/mooks who recognize the WoL but attack anyway are silly?

They sometimes seem to acknowledged knowing about the WoL, or identify us, but proceed to attack us no matter how little chance they have. It makes sense for mindless entities like Sin Eaters or Voidsent, but animals would know when to run for it.

There's also this gap between the MSQ and the Class/Job quests were certain intelligent bad guys, like the leader of the Bibliothecs, who probably should know who you are, but attack you anyways.

The only time I see when they do run, is during the Doman Adventurer Guild with that family of lalafells. Every other time it seems to be, 'it's the Eikonslayer! Attack!' Does anyone remember any other times that this happens?

I mean, you aren't immortal. There are a few NPCs that can give you a run for your money.
You aren't some unstoppable force, for the vast majority of tasks you've undertaken you've had 3 to 7 of your friends join you for help. The game has been rather specific about pointing that out.

Quote:

---

The game has been rather specific about pointing that out.

---

I think it's more like they like to lampshade that in many, many cases, the WoL does it alone. Like the Susano quest where you're clearly the only one there to fight him and both Alisaie and Lyse say exactly that, but the DF says "uhhh yeah they were there all along don't think about it", or when you fight Bismark and there's clearly nobody there afterwards, it's like that with the vast majority of bosses.

Basically it's not a good idea to say random mooks challenging WoL makes sense because it's thought that WoL does it as part of a party, because the story pretty much always gives WoL sole credit anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

I mean, you aren't immortal. There are a few NPCs that can give you a run for your money.
You aren't some unstoppable force, for the vast majority of tasks you've undertaken you've had 3 to 7 of your friends join you for help. The game has been rather specific about pointing that out.

---

True, but a reputation like the Eikonslayer should make individuals hesitant to engage. Or perhaps it is a limitation of the game. I feel bad at times for having to massacre waves of mooks, when they could have given up. But it doesn't feel like that option usually exists. There are a few NPCs, but most of those are named. Just as there are adventurers with their own stories in the background, it would be good to not simply be a killing machine that the game sometimes makes me feel. Maybe this is what Zenos meant back in Stormblood.

Most people have very little capacity for risk assessment, news at 11.

Seriously, people doing suicidally stupid crap because they dramatically underestimate the risks involved is pretty common, people in general are not as smart as they like to think they are. Especially teenagers, my gods, the things dumb teens get up to because they think they are invincible.

"This guy eats demi-gods for breakfast, but i bet i can take him anyway, HEY GUYS! WATCH THIS!" *Rushes in and dies*

"Meh, that bad thing that happened to everybody else who ever tried this thing can't happen to me! Imma do it!" *That bad thing happens to him too*

"I'm a big strong bodybuilder! Clearly that means i can fistfight a pissed off grizzly bear to prove how awesome i am!" *Get's mauled, because bear*

Ridiculous, utterly unjustified levels of overconfidence and overinflated ego is just part of the human condition, you are always going to have large numbers of people trying things they really should know better than to attempt because "It will totally work out better for me than it did for all those other schmucks who got killed trying it!"

Really, i have some horror stories from real life i could tell you about people doing incredibly stupid things because they flat out could not comprehend the risks involved, or because they massively overestimated their own abilities and thought the dangers don't matter to someone so obviously awesome, which naturally goes very badly for them.

So no, it does not come as a surprise that mooks keep willingly throwing themselves into the meatgrinder that is the Warrior Of Light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mixt

snip

---

All of what you said, plus the fact that, in the case of Garlean troops, they'd probably be punished for desertion or insubordination.

First thing that comes to my mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Kz8gQxzGE

Many are driven by intense ideals and/or desperation. The Warrior of Darkness isn't immortal, either - so if we're speaking in terms of realism, then there's a chance that even a peasant with a pitchfork could end the life of the WoD if they got a lucky hit in.

I think it'd make for a satisfying story arc if such a thing were to happen, especially with how tiresome the constant fawning over the WoD has become on many fronts. It's hard to root for a 'hero' that rarely loses in a way that humbles him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

All of what you said, plus the fact that, in the case of Garlean troops, they'd probably be punished for desertion or insubordination.

---

What a terrible way to die. Tried and executed on the spot, or run headlong into a fight with the WoL.

This is the fault of propaganda. Make it seem like the Eikon-slayer isn't as powerful to let them be ignorant. Then have the commanders send grunts out to their deaths to further mow down troops. I'm positive this is what they're doing given that they lied about Zenos.

I liked that one SB Monk quest specifically for the fact that someone doesn't underestimate you for once and they bring a huge mob to assist them but you beat them all up anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Many are driven by intense ideals and/or desperation. The Warrior of Darkness isn't immortal, either - so if we're speaking in terms of realism, then there's a chance that even a peasant with a pitchfork could end the life of the WoD if they got a lucky hit in.

I think it'd make for a satisfying story arc if such a thing were to happen, especially with how tiresome the constant fawning over the WoD has become on many fronts. It's hard to root for a 'hero' that rarely loses in a way that humbles him.

---

I think it could be really interestingly done, like you lose the blessing of light or whatnot, stopping your natural health regeneration and you're eventually KOed from waves of low damage peasants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

I mean, you aren't immortal. There are a few NPCs that can give you a run for your money.
You aren't some unstoppable force, for the vast majority of tasks you've undertaken you've had 3 to 7 of your friends join you for help. The game has been rather specific about pointing that out.

---

Ehh, a lot of the time yes, but also a lot of the time no. It's a bit wishy washy depending on what they feel like doing within the narrative. Like how the final fight with Zenos involves 3 and then 7 people, but they aren't there with you in the cutscenes where he lauds you as his greatest frenemy.

Omega raid is more or less the same. I would have preferred if they'd stuck to the, "Get your trusty friends WoL." every time, but they don't, so it's there when they feel like addressing the gameplay aspect of the game, and then it's not when they don't.

But even then, even with the context of needing 3~7 other people, you still do things that take dozens to hundreds of others to do.

And a lot of the same NPCs that can give you a run for your money only do so at the story's behest, before you've gained your true power for the expansion. And sometimes they don't. One of the things I appreciated about the Zenos fights is that you can hurt and hit him, but at 10% of your normal damage, making you feel weak from a gameplay perspective.

Compared to the Ran-jit fight where you can hurt him and he can hurt you, but he merely tells you that you're weak, and it's not actually shown in the gameplay, particularly if you are a tank. His ultimate attack that knocks you back won't even reduce you to 2/3rds of your HP on tank if you're playing seriously.

As for the actual subject at hand, appearances can be deceiving, and even if you subscribe to the canon WoL appearance of being in whatever expac's AF armor he's rocking and being an average build midlander isn't exactly impressive. Your power level so to speak is not apparent to the uninitiated, and so while your reputation may be fierce, most of the mooks that aren't ignorant of it attribute it to you having a special power that allows you specifically slay eikons, and that's the extent of your specialty. It's only after you kill or incapacitate them that they realize they were on a fool's errand.

And man, whether the WoL kills or incapacitates is also left up in the air. Sometimes when you fight, you just knock people out, and sometimes it's assisted by the gameplay of them not going to 0% and giving up. Other times it's not. In this we can assume that the WoL's body count is high, because unless we see that they live later on, it's safe to assume they are dead, which is usually the case. Example: We got to fight Shiva to the death like any other primal, and yes she did not die. We go to fight Yotsuyu to the death, and she was dying after the fight, but the game goes a step further by having Asahi shoot her so we don't have to let it weigh on our conscience that we killed her.

It's kind of comparable to the whole, "Batman never kills" thing, despite him being shown to hit so hard and knock guys into metal furniture and fixtures that there's no way he's never incidentally killed a guy. I can't exactly feel bad for the mooks, cause I'm never 100% sure or not whether or not I actually killed them. The game doesn't give me that information, so we get Schroedinger's Mooks. That could also be another reason they attack, "I might live, and could pass it off as I died and leave the empire's service."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

...so we get Schroedinger's Mooks.

---

Now the official name for any of these poor people. Thank you! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's kind of comparable to the whole, "Batman never kills" thing, despite him being shown to hit so hard and knock guys into metal furniture and fixtures that there's no way he's never incidentally killed a guy. I can't exactly feel bad for the mooks, cause I'm never 100% sure or not whether or not I actually killed them. The game doesn't give me that information, so we get Schroedinger's Mooks. That could also be another reason they attack, "I might live, and could pass it off as I died and leave the empire's service."

---

Might actually be interesting to have a quest where a bunch of Garlean troops who want to defect asks the WoL to fight them and make it look like to their superiors that they are dead. With the deaths faked, they would then be free to live their own lives (though that might complicate any returns to Garlemald for them)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Might actually be interesting to have a quest where a bunch of Garlean troops who want to defect asks the WoL to fight them and make it look like to their superiors that they are dead. With the deaths faked, they would then be free to live their own lives (though that might complicate any returns to Garlemald for them)

---

Have Maxima(Maximus?) send word to the spies, have them get that to the people they know are out like the Garlean Triple Triad NPC, aaaand seeing as how commanders don't seem to care if their troops live or die, it should be pretty easy to increase the defector population. Provided they don't just mooch off Eorzea's resources.

I mean when you think about it, which is better? A quick death at the hands of a legend or a slow painful death as an Garlean experiment? I wouldn't doubt had they thrown down their arms and ran away, if the Garleans caught them they would be punished in one of their many inhumane experimentation. So it might not be as silly as you'd think.

This is heroic fantasy, not dark fantasy. The next patch features a brawl between an Eorzean Gundam and a Garlean Evangelion. "Gritty realism" where you can be killed by a lucky farmer with a pitchfork is clearly not on the developers' list of priorities. (That's what The Witcher is for! If my memory holds right!)

Unfortunately, Garlean mooks have to deal with what I call the "TFS Freeza" Dilemma: "Die to him [or her] or die to me!" Most of them are forced conscripts from conquered territories who aren't even Garlean citizens; their COs can kill them for any reason or even no reason at all with zero repercussions. They can disobey their orders and be killed for certain by their CO (or have their families killed, or both), or they can obey in the vain hope they'll be able to bring the PC (and his Schroedinger's Crew) down. Soiled pants or not, there's not much of a choice to be made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

This is heroic fantasy, not dark fantasy.

---

Did you forget the entirety of Il Mheg where we got to see men drowned and petrified on the spot? Or heck, Dohn Mheg where the Fuath were going to keep us as their drowned plaything until they got bored??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gula

Did you forget the entirety of Il Mheg where we got to see men drowned and petrified on the spot? Or heck, Dohn Mheg where the Fuath were going to keep us as their drowned plaything until they got bored??

---

If this was true dark fantasy, they would have succeeded, or the bad things would have adversely affected us and our allies the same way as it did our enemies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

This is heroic fantasy, not dark fantasy. The next patch features a brawl between an Eorzean Gundam and a Garlean Evangelion. "Gritty realism" where you can be killed by a lucky farmer with a pitchfork is clearly not on the developers' list of priorities. (That's what The Witcher is for! If my memory holds right!)

Unfortunately, Garlean mooks have to deal with what I call the "TFS Freeza" Dilemma: "Die to him [or her] or die to me!" Most of them are forced conscripts from conquered territories who aren't even Garlean citizens; their COs can kill them for any reason or even no reason at all with zero repercussions. They can disobey their orders and be killed for certain by their CO (or have their families killed, or both), or they can obey in the vain hope they'll be able to bring the PC (and his Schroedinger's Crew) down. Soiled pants or not, there's not much of a choice to be made.

---

And you're forgetting there was a man practically fused to the new Ultimate Weapon who screams out when it is activated (Estinien Echo in Shadowbringers) and the fact that several people were placed in the machine that created Fordola and Zenos' resonance. Only Krile survived as far as I'm aware.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

If this was true dark fantasy, they would have succeeded, or the bad things would have adversely affected us and our allies the same way as it did our enemies.

---

Dark fantasy does not mean unhappy end. That's just an unhappy end. It's the universe. Like Berserk. Guts is still struggling, all things considered. Are you going to say Berserk is not dark fantasy because some people managed to live? And if you haven't read Berserk, then oh well. But it's my counter to your argument.

XIV is colorful on the surface only, until you get to the Ul'dah child slave plots and literally every Calamity. Eorzea isn't a fantasy wonderland. Fantasy, yes. But at any moment you could contract the Green Rot, get murked by a voidsent, or get got because the government turned a blind eye over injustice.

And don't get me STARTED on Sastasha. Hooo boy.

I also recommend a reading of the lore books. Because this world is honestly Hell. (t-thanks ascians)

The world itself is more realistic than most fantasy settings. Still, the idea is for the PC to be an escapist character - an ideal hero in a flawed world.

The existence of Bad Things™ that may or may not also exist in real life doesn't mean it isn't a heroic fantasy. The heroes still win against all odds, only dying in noble sacrifices. The villains antagonists are still trying to do things that would be considered evil by most standards, and they all eventually get their comeuppance.

The idea is for the game to be an escapist fantasy, where you're an ultra-powerful unstoppable badass who eats gods (tulpas) for breakfast and is the closest thing the world has to a paragon of virtue. Dark fantasy appeals to a more limited audience, since most people aren't into Misery Simulators.

Just my two cents. Feel free to agree to disagree!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

and they all eventually get their comeuppance.

---

Lolorito would like a word with you. I mean, sure, they say he was just playing 4-D assassination chess, and so he wasn't really evil, but if that were the case he could have stopped the ruse immediately upon Teledji's death.

And all those dead lesser scions that die in the Waking Sands ambush in 2.0 would also like a word. No noble sacrifices there, just a lotta dead folks who were killed until they died from it. /winks in Hot Shots Part Deux

Not too mention all the allusions to rape and sexual slavery that are pitched on you directly through the MSQ. I would say that FFXIV is dark fantasy bottled and sold as heroic fantasy. They hook you with the flamboyant heroic visuals, but then keep you with the villains that do things like, "Yeah so, me and my associates made God real. Turns out it was a horrible idea, and almost everyone we knew and loved died or turned against us as a result."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KylePearlsand

And you're forgetting there was a man practically fused to the new Ultimate Weapon who screams out when it is activated (Estinien Echo in Shadowbringers) and the fact that several people were placed in the machine that created Fordola and Zenos' resonance. Only Krile survived as far as I'm aware.

---

I dont think its that Krile "survived", i think its that her purpose was different from the others. My memory of this is that she was set up as the template(they were copying her echo to fordola/etc), the red shirts in the other pods were there to provide the energy to transfer over following her pattern, and then the test subject would have gotten the result. The garleans(at least the ones doing this experiment) didnt seem to know there were different types and strengths of echo, so using Krile as the template ends up not working out super well for Fordola.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I would say that FFXIV is dark fantasy bottled and sold as heroic fantasy.

---

This is pretty solid, yeah!

The Flood of Light is as apocalyptic and end of the world as it gets, but oooh shiny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

I mean, you aren't immortal. There are a few NPCs that can give you a run for your money.
You aren't some unstoppable force, for the vast majority of tasks you've undertaken you've had 3 to 7 of your friends join you for help. The game has been rather specific about pointing that out.

---

Thats mostly just in the english version. A lot of cases dont even make sense with a group. (And even if we somehow truly beat everything with others that does not make us weak either.) And lets not forget that a certain someone from Shadowbringer that beat us was defeated later by us solo too.

Yes we are not immortal but I still would want to know the few NPCs that could truly give us a run for the money. I mean there are some that will be near us and sometimes we get beaten because plot demands it but I know of no henchmen that would be near that which is what the OP talks about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LystAP

There's also this gap between the MSQ and the Class/Job quests were certain intelligent bad guys, like the leader of the Bibliothecs, who probably should know who you are, but attack you anyways.

The only time I see when they do run, is during the Doman Adventurer Guild with that family of lalafells. Every other time it seems to be, 'it's the Eikonslayer! Attack!' Does anyone remember any other times that this happens?

---

For random bandits and stuff I just assume they don't recognize us, it isn't like there are Eorzean TVs that we appear on all the time.

For people who do know who we are, they probably think the stories about us are massively exaggerated. I mean, it is pretty implausible that one person has done all that ;)

Also, some people are probably just overconfident idiots.

-----

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

I think it's more like they like to lampshade that in many, many cases, the WoL does it alone. Like the Susano quest where you're clearly the only one there to fight him and both Alisaie and Lyse say exactly that, but the DF says "uhhh yeah they were there all along don't think about it", or when you fight Bismark and there's clearly nobody there afterwards, it's like that with the vast majority of bosses.

Basically it's not a good idea to say random mooks challenging WoL makes sense because it's thought that WoL does it as part of a party, because the story pretty much always gives WoL sole credit anyway.

---

They don't say exactly that though. They literally clear a path out of Susano's chamber and ask you if can fetch any of your adventurer friends that might be nearby, on say a far-east fishing trip, to help you out. Yes, it's handled in a rather tongue-in-cheek manner, but the writers poking a bit of fun at themselves for stretching plausibility from time to time is a far cry from actually being a confirmation that you're solo all the time.

Nobody is the cutscenes afterwards because, I suspect, the engine can't easily do it. Your "adventurer friends" do show up in cutscenes when they're actually physically there in the same instance as you. The Main Scenario Castrums for example, they clearly show 7 other people with you when you run them, but you're solo if you watch them again when you're alone in the Inn room.

-----

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Thats mostly just in the english version.

---

It's interesting that the German version is different, but it's not like it's more canon than the English version.

Just pointing out that Lolorito is neither villainous nor antagonistic. He's selfish and greedy, but his actions are consistently geared toward preserving Ul'dah's status quo because it makes him wealthy. Spoiler alert, the debacle of 2.55 was mostly Teledji Adeledji's doing; Lolorito caught wind of it and tried to mitigate the damage, but Ilberd went loose cannon at the critical moment to pursue his vendetta against Raubahn. He never got "comeuppance" per sé, but that's because he never really did anything villainous - and he still tried to make up for it by giving Adeledji's wealth and half of his personal fortune to the Sultanate, giving Nanamo a bit of a leash on the Syndicate.

Not to mention how he's the only known person who tried to peacefully resolve the Meteor crisis in 1.x through his merchant network, allowed the Scions to use the EATC office in Kugane as their base of operations for the Doman campaign, and actually does care about someone besides himself - the Kugane Castle quest shows he has a soft spot for his niece. Lolorito may be a ruthless business tycoon, but he is not villainous in the slightest (beyond his desire to maintain Ul'dah's status quo for the sake of building his wealth).

The presence of real crime and fantasy horror elements do not make the story dark fantasy. Despite those, it's far too optimistic in tone - the protagonists are still, well, heroic by most means of the word, and while they are put through the paces persevere and actually do make the world a better place. If this were dark fantasy things like saving Estinien from Nidhogg's possession or rallying Norvrandt to get us up Mt. Gulg would have been far more difficult if not impossible - and certain cross-sections of the fanbase wouldn't be complaining about how it's not "realistically gritty" enough for their taste. (You'd get the opposite complaints, actually.)

Again, Eorzean Gundam vs. Garlean Evangelion. "Gritty realism" where the PC is shivved in an Ishgardian alley and freezes to death in the gutter is not going to happen; it defeats the raison d'etre of the PC.

Quote:

---

They don't say exactly that though. They literally clear a path out of Susano's chamber and ask you if can fetch any of your adventurer friends that might be nearby, on say a far-east fishing trip, to help you out. Yes, it's handled in a rather tongue-in-cheek manner, but the writers poking a bit of fun at themselves for stretching plausibility from time to time is a far cry from actually being a confirmation that you're solo all the time.

---

I don't think you're remembering it correctly. If anything the tongue-in-cheek part of it is calling to attention just how absurd and clearly-not-the-case having any backup is.

https://i.imgur.com/zOosdIu.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Implies that Evangelion isn't dark

---

Lolorito was entirely villainous, and what ensued afterwards was a ham fisted rewrite to cop-out on killing the sultana. And clearly, what happened with Ilberd being a loose cannon only happened after they imprisoned Raubahn and attempted to kill the Scions as a whole. The man literally pointed at the Scions and yelled, "The Scions have conspired to commit regicide!" and ordered men under his pay to pursue and kill.

I wouldn't call the story optimistic in tone either. Sure, the hero mostly triumphs, but the tone of the story is deeply existential and filled with horror. It comes in all flavors and subtly at times, too. We get body horror with dragon blood imbibing, hypertuned magitek alteration, sineater transformation, voidsent corruption, and primal enthrallment that all lead to body horror. We get philosophical horror in Gaius's elevator speech, the archbishop's 1000 year theocratic lie, Zenos reasoning that man is greatest of the animals for his ability to choose to be violent rather than being violent through instinct, and where we are now, against primordial beings who forced a God they built through ritual sacrifice of their own people onto their own people.
It's not just elements of horror that are present. It's the whole kit and kaboodle, and it's only mitigated by the gameplay loop, and the fact that most people just wanna have a good time and come to the serious atmosphere with, "long hair, don't care" attitudes.

The horrors mankind can inflict on one another is a theme of this game. This is reflected in the, "heroes" who are mostly a group of self-righteous foreigners who believe they are doing what is best for everyone by attempting and usually succeeding to enact their wills onto the leaders of the city-states. When diplomacy falls through they turn to force of arms, and their battle prowess is usually how they get a foot in the door with the city-state leaders in the first place. The only thing separating them from the villains is that they don't seek domination, merely subversion.

And to your bit on "Eorzean Gundam vs. Garlean Evangelion." It's more like Eorzean Xenogears vs. Garlean Evangelion from my perspective. Then there's the fact that Evangelion is dark sci-fi. Incredibly brutally dark sci-fi. Not exactly something you should bring up to aid your idea. "Gritty realism" is also not always a part of dark fantasy, nor is it requisite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

I don't think you're remembering it correctly. If anything the tongue-in-cheek part of it is calling to attention just how absurd and clearly-not-the-case having any backup is.

https://i.imgur.com/zOosdIu.png

---

It's not exactly as I remember it, but I stand by my point. Lyse provides an excuse for the 7 other people you're going to be with, and Alisaie says that it's a silly excuse, then they both may as well wink at the camera.

To circle back around to the main topic though, Lyse does confirm there that you have an 'awful lot of adventurer friends.'
It stands to reason that the people who attack you when you're on your own also know that you have an awful lot of adventurer friends, and because of the sheer absurdity of the idea, don't believe you routinely defeat demi-gods without them.

I think the problem with declaring FFXIV to be "dark fantasy" is that the very concept of dark fantasy is incredibly nebulous. By some of the metrics I see being bandied around her, Lord of the Rings would be "dark fantasy". It has all kinds of dark elements - a mountain full of dead dwarves, elves transformed into orcs, the Ring's corruption of the soul, and so on and so forth. And yet, LotR is pretty much held up as the template for HIGH fantasy.

ANY fantasy story is going to have its dark elements. Otherwise, there would be no conflict, no plot, and no purpose.

FFXIV does try to include a lot of "human" elements that high fantasy often skips over. Humans tend to be self-interested, and self-interest occasionally leads people to do bad things. Even so, I don't see this as being sufficient to elevate (or would it be deelevate?) the story into the realm of dark fantasy.

To me, a dark fantasy setting has to have a strong element of hopelessness to it. There are heroes, but their victories tend to be minor in the grand scheme of things. That is certainly not the case in this game. The heroes' victories (largely thanks to the WoL) are tremendous, world-altering things. The Garlean Empire was an unstoppable juggernaut, but the WoL wades through its forces like a knife through butter. The Ascians have gone undefeated for twelve thousand years, but in the space of a year or two, the heroes have driven them into a corner. We're so badass, that we have to PRETEND the enemies are harder just to get a decent fight. (See the Wandering Minstrel and his Extreme and Savage encounters.)

The setting has plenty of dark elements, but that's where the "dark fantasy" ends. Things are bad, but they're getting better, not worse. In a dark fantasy, for every step forward, there's typically two or more steps back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

It's not exactly as I remember it, but I stand by my point. Lyse provides an excuse for the 7 other people you're going to be with, and Alisaie says that it's a silly excuse, then they both may as well wink at the camera.

To circle back around to the main topic though, Lyse does confirm there that you have an 'awful lot of adventurer friends.'
It stands to reason that the people who attack you when you're on your own also know that you have an awful lot of adventurer friends, and because of the sheer absurdity of the idea, don't believe you routinely defeat demi-gods without them.

---

And she only seemingly does that in the english version. (And no I am not saying that it makes it less canon but it also does not make it THE canon option)

Why should randoms mooks know about adventurer friends that seemingly dont exist outside of some random text in some quests? They are not out there helping us when we do solo instances, they are not out there being celebrated by the people. They seemingly dont exist at all. Shouldnt the scions be kinda alert to have such a big number of strong echo users? Yet the only one that they go to are us (until recently where known NPCs defeat old primals instead of us). Why do we get the praise if we seemingly always need help? Why is Zenos looking up to us if we needed x other randoms to defeat him?

Where did we get 23 strong adventurers to do the nier raid if we are in a whole other world?

After learning about our possible past life is it really that absurd that we would defeat primals alone? When the only thing stopping most of the people is probably the whole being tempered thing? (We did beat grandpa solo towards the end of Shadowbringers and defeated a certain ascian in a certain body and only lost because we got a call at a very bad time)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

And she only seemingly does that in the english version. (And no I am not saying that it makes it less canon but it also does not make it THE canon option)

---

Surely the English version is the canon version for the English language lore forum? We can't reasonably be expected to discuss versions we can't understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Why should randoms mooks know about adventurer friends that seemingly dont exist outside of some random text in some quests?

---

Because that's the setting of the game? Adventurers joining the guild of adventurers and meeting other adventurers to go on adventures together is an established thing, it's what adventurers do and we are an adventurer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

They are not out there helping us when we do solo instances, they are not out there being celebrated by the people.

---

We're not being celebrated by the people half the time, the normal response we get when we turn up is 'who the hell are you? kill 5 wolves for me and then I might hear you out.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Shouldnt the scions be kinda alert to have such a big number of strong echo users?

---

They are? The Scions mention them, we were just talking about Lyse mentioning them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Yet the only one that they go to are us (until recently where known NPCs defeat old primals instead of us).

---

We're the head honcho, the main dude, the party leader. Eorzea is the land of the Karens, and if they want something done they speak to the Manager.

I mean, to be serious, most people don't even go to us, they go to the others Scions who then point us in the direction of the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Why do we get the praise if we seemingly always need help? Why is Zenos looking up to us if we needed x other randoms to defeat him?

---

Why do we only talk about Sun Tzu, or Napoleon, or Ghengis Khan, or anyone really, when they couldn't have done any of it without their men?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Where did we get 23 strong adventurers to do the nier raid if we are in a whole other world?

---

There are still plenty of people in the first, and it's established that they have people who lead similar lifestyles to source adventurers, and the people of that world basically hero worship you. If you're going to pick examples from the First that don't make any sense that's probably one of the worst ones. Titania or Innocence, now they stretch plausibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

After learning about our possible past life is it really that absurd that we would defeat primals alone?

---

Depends on the circumstances, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Also most people, and this thread is still technically about people who attack us, don't know anything about any of that. I imagine if random mooks were getting the 'Hades-vision' of us as an Ancient a lot of them would change their minds ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

When the only thing stopping most of the people is probably the whole being tempered thing?

---

What are you basing that on? Most people get their asses whooped just trying to clear Tam Tara.

-----

Look, if people want to go with solo-WoL as their idea of how the story is done, that's fine, doesn't affect me. The game though, in the English version at least, does not support it. While you can point to invidual instances of where it's a bit far-fetched for the WoL to go and get a party, you can't ignore the fact that any of us can fire up the game right now and read several journal entires that outright explicitly state that you partied up.

Even then though, all that still in some way feels a bit like quibbling about minor details while missing the bigger picture, not seeing the forest for the trees so to speak.

First. The game establishes that adventurers exist and that they often join up and work together. It's also established that guilds exist to facilitate this and one of the first things the game does is make you join one.

Second. Several NPCs mention, not commonly but often enough, that you have adventurers friends and tell you that you that it would be handy if you could fetch them. The idea that this is the exception to rule is bizarre to me. They'll tell you to get backup for something like Baelsar's Wall, but not give you chance to grab some friends before heading out to see Bismark? Don't think so.

Third. Taking a step back, you are still a mortal, that you've single-handedly defeated an invasion by an advanced army, ended a millennia long war against angry space aliens, liberated several nations across the world, and put 12,000 year old dimension hopping super beings on the back foot, all on your own, is stretching plausibility far more than the idea that before most of the major encounters you've had you got on your LS and called up some of the lads for help.

And Fourth. To take another step back, a bit of a meta one, the vast majority (maybe all?) of the main Final Fantasy games have had the main character backed up by a party.

Quote:

---

Lyse provides an excuse for the 7 other people you're going to be with, and Alisaie says that it's a silly excuse, then they both may as well wink at the camera.

---

By "wink at the camera" you mean "roll their eyes". What I'm saying here is that you're misjudging the direction of the joke. The punchline is that the story is being written with you as the only hero, the one explicitly fighting alone, but because it's a trial and not a solo duty the game mechanics are forcing you to play with seven other people, so they're lampshading the absurdity of that idea by explicitly calling it out as being stupid.

The fact that you're trying to take the joke seriously and ignore that the story is ALWAYS written with WoL being the sole hero and other players not existing is ridiculous. Do people really need to start listing the moments in the story where having other people there is narratively nonsensical?

Not to mention it doesn't at all help your argument relating to the topic of the thread. Random mooks challenging WoL when they get sole credit as THE Warrior of Light, even if it's randomly thought that they've had help in the past, is equally ridiculous given the sheer amount of things they've done. You may as well just say that everyone doesn't believe any of the stories at all and just thinks everything you've done is all a myth or conspiracy. It's more believable that someone wouldn't believe you exist even if you're standing right in front of them than that they believe even 10% of it and still think they can take you in a fight.

This isn't a concrete area for the game, just like the ever closer to popping time bubble. For instance, the first trial in the game, Ifrit story mode, you are imprisoned in a cave where there is a pool of water. One of the Immortal Flames nearby tells you that it's a way out, and denotes that, "Listen well. These waters feed into the marshes of Drybone. A short swim will see us freedom. However, if all of us attempt to flee we are like to be discovered. You alone must sneak out and assemble a rescue party."

At times, the game does things like this to explain away your party. At other times it emphasizes that you alone are doing everything. Each instance of it has the right answer, and we could argue in circles for days about it, and never come to the conclusion that it's one or the other.

The easiest way to denote the WoL's strength compared to the common soldier is to just look at solo instances or quests where you spawn several imperials at once. For instance in the level 67 Velodyna instance, you start off by fighting a couple of waves of imperials. You do have back up, but if you are on tank or your DPS is hot shit, you can pull hate on everything, and tank all of it with no effort whatsoever, never dropping lower than 90% HP if you elect to dodge telegraphs, which you also do not need to dodge. Earlier in the Stormblood story the resistance notes that magitek armor can vaporize 10~20 men at once, and that they are horrible, monstrous machines of war. Yet there you are, taking 3 magitek beams on the chin like it ain't no thing, and what's more is you are utterly pulverizing them into the dust.

As for why the imperials continue to be idiotic about you.. well, even by Stormblood, you aren't super duper dee duper well known outside of Eorzea, and they are imperials from outside of Eorzean territory, technically. Since you can change your armor and appearance at will, it also kinda makes it hard for a description of your character other than their unparalleled(save by Zenos) strength. Heck, even Fordola who has fought you once before thinks she's more than a match for you just because she was gifted a Garlean gunblade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

The fact that you're trying to take the joke seriously and ignore that the story is ALWAYS written with WoL being the sole hero and other players not existing is ridiculous. Do people really need to start listing the moments in the story where having other people there is narratively nonsensical?

---

I'm taking it seriously because it's recorded as what you actually did in the in-game journal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Susano

Before the vault door, you steel yourself for the impending confrontation. How fortunate that you had the wisdom and foresight to invite several of your fellow adventurers on this journey to the Far East, and how kind they were to agree to help you torment the Red Kojin, for no single warrior, no matter how blessed or powerful, could ever hope to slay a primal on her own, despite what some wandering minstrels would have you believe.

---

If Susano was the only one like this I might dismiss as just the journal going along with the joke, but it's not the only one, there are multiple entries like that for both dungeons and trials. The majority played entirely straight.

A few examples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steps of Faith

Upon arriving at the Gates of Judgement, Ser Marcelain hurriedly briefs you on the skirmishes that have broken out around the central highlands. Before digging in for the main siege, you are to aid the Crystal Braves and your fellow adventurers in repelling the Dravanians' advance forces. Head first to Whitebrim, and slay the dragons that threaten the area.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Battle on the Big Bridge

Outside the gates to Griffin Crossing, you find an incapacitated Inspector Hildibrand. Imploring you to stop his misguided former friend, you begin to search the bridge, and quickly find Gilgamesh waiting for you. The warrior proposes what he deems a duel—though his terms allow for you to summon allies. Triumph, and he will yield the spear. But should you fail, your weapons will be forfeit.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bismark

Cid's preparations have proceeded smoothly, and the required chains and ballistae have already been delivered to the Sea of Clouds. You need but notify Wedge when you have assembled your party of brave companions, and you will be ferried to the island provided by the Zundu.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sephirot

You rendezvous with Unukalhai, and are joined by Y'shtola, Urianger and Krile─the latter being the “talented individual” to whom Unukalhai alluded earlier. Having spared no effort in her preparations, the surviving Student of Baldesion swiftly discerns the only feasible way to proceed, and assigns herself the task of disabling Sephirot's shackles. Summon your Echo-blessed companions, and make ready to engage the wrathful god as he awakens from millennia of dream-bound servitude.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baelsar's Wall

Alphinaud outlines a simple plan wherein he will pursue the infiltration team through the tunnels while you scale the fortifications with a party of your most trusted comrades. You must reach the top of the Wall and force the Griffin to withdraw before the unthinkable happens!

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lakshmi

Either way, her failure has left you with no recourse but to meet the primal in single combat─ably abetted by the goodly adventurers who you had the wisdom and foresight to summon to Djanan Qhat in anticipation of this outcome.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shinryu

Nor is he mistaken. For if you and your comrades─those stalwart yet humble adventurers who have stood by you from first to last─do not stop Zenos yae Galvus...no one will.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hades

But then Ardbert is there at your side, and with his hand at your back, you find the strength to take another step. Emet-Selch's disbelief is compounded as the Exarch appears and intones a spell to bring you further reinforcements. Now enraged beyond measure, the Ascian casts aside his mortal form, and reveals to you his true name─Hades. The final hour─the final conflict─is at hand!

---

That isn't even all of them, there is more, and they're all direct quotes pulled straight from the game. It seems to me that the writers have been, quietly but continuously, confirming that you party up with other adventurers since A Realm Reborn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

snip

---

Imagine thinking adventurer's with echo can take on Zenos in Stormblood when even the WoL struggled a bit based on what Yoshi-p said himself he would rip them apart lmao

Also explain to me how you have friends against Thordan in Azys Lla? You shouldn't take the journal seriously when said journal makes a joke about you bringing friends into the Azim Steppe dungeon when suppose to be a trial for yourself. What a great WoL you are to not follow their traditions :)

See the problem? The English local know people talk about this stuff and it's why they stick it in places like the Journal or when speak to npc between dungeons/trials because it's poking fun at the fact when in reality you are doing it alone but the game is telling you to wait for people or go grab people. They can't put it in cut scenes because the story isn't told or designed with the idea that you have others with you. Hades they SHOW in the cut scene where the others came from which is why no one questions that and it's the same across all the languages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remus

Also explain to me how you have friends against Thordan in Azys Lla? You shouldn't take the journal seriously when said journal makes a joke about you bringing friends into the Azim Steppe dungeon when suppose to be a trial for yourself. What a great WoL you are to not follow their traditions

---

So journal entries are entirely non-canon because of Bardam's Mettle? Some of the entries are a bit silly so none of them count at all is quite the leap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Remus

They can't put it in cut scenes because the story isn't told or designed with the idea that you have others with you. Hades they SHOW in the cut scene where the others came from which is why no one questions that and it's the same across all the languages.

---

They can't put other people in your cut scenes because of the linear nature of the flow of time.
Adventurer friends is the story term for duty finder randos, they can't put said randos in your cut scenes when the events that decide who they are haven't actually happened yet.

The gameplay/story segregation isn't that all content is actually done solo, it's that your party can't appear with you outside of said content. It'd suck if they forced people to find 3 to 7 others to follow them around while they did the fetch quests leading up to the real fights, so instead they just make do with implying that they're somewhere nearby, just off-camera.

-----

To be pedantic, the Hades cut scene doesn't actually show anyone else. It's very heavily implied that adventurers will pop out of those beams of light, but it isn't actually shown until the little cut scene inside the instance, and cut scenes inside group instances presumably don't count for whatever reason, because those always show other adventurers.

Also I have seen people question that cut scene and say it doesn't count. The ease with which he summons your back-up doesn't mesh especially well with the struggle he had to get you across in the first place, and the difficulty he is having in sending everyone back.

"Does the WoL do everything solo?" is a question that gets asked periodically, and usually ends up in a heated debate. The game is DELIBERATELY coy in answering this, and in the English version at least (dunno about the others) occasionally pokes fun at both sides. So, it's up to each individual person to decide: is the WoL a one-woman army? Or is she a great leader? Or perhaps both, and it varies from occasion to occasion?

I will point out, though, a point in favor of the great leader angle is the fact that an item already exists within game that allow you to teleport to an individual's location: the Eternity Ring, available from the Eternal Bonding ceremony. It's not beyond reason to assume that the WoL has similar items which she distributes to other great warriors she meets on her travels, in order to have a party at the ready at a moment's notice - even for "there's no way she'd have the opportunity to assemble a party ahead of time" moments like Thordan.

It's definitely the case that the WoL gets the lion's share of the CREDIT for each victory, whether solo or on a team - but that's pretty common in real life history, as well. Great generals are lauded for their victories, but it's not as though they single-handedly did all the fighting. Many of them were not skilled warriors themselves, at all, in fact.