Implementing DNC/NIN system for AST Card

I want to share my AST card system idea.
Basically, my idea is implementing DNC step and NIN mudra into AST card.
So the card effect change based on combination of card that we prepare.
Please read the description below for the explanation.

Astral Draw
Start playing card, granting yourself Astral Draw.
Change your damage spell into card (Malefic, Combust, Gravity -> Balance, Spear, Arrow)
1st card selected will be stored
2nd card selected will be burned to add additional effect to the hold card
Duration: 15 sec
Action Change into Play upon executing
Trigger delay of spell, card action, and play
Cooldown: 30 sec

Umbral Draw
Start playing card, granting yourself Umbral Draw.
Change your damage spell into card (Malefic, Combust, Gravity -> Bole, Spire, Ewer)
1st card selected will be stored
2nd card selected will be burned to add additional effect to the hold card
Action Change into Play upon executing
Trigger delay of spell, card action, and play
Cooldown: 30 sec

Play
Granting a buff to a party member based on a card that you stored
Recover 500 MP upon execution
Granting 1 stack of Arcana
Trigger delay of spell, card action, and play

Card Effect
Balance
As 1st card = 10% direct hit buff
As 2nd card = increase stored card potency to 150%
Spear
As 1st card = 10% critical buff
As 2nd card = Increase stored card buff duration by 200%
Arrow
As 1st card = 10% determination buff
As 2nd card = change stored card effect into AOE, but reduce card potency by 50%
Bole
As 1st card = 10% physical defence buff
As 2nd card = increase spread card potency by 150%
Spire
As 1st card = 10% magical defence buff
As 2nd card = Increase spread card buff duration by 200%
Ewer
As 1st card = 10% healing action increase
As 2nd card = change spread card effect into AOE, but reduce card potency by 50%

Normal card buff duration: 15 sec
Cooldown for all card action: 1 sec

Basically, I want AST card to have different effect and player are in control to choose the effect.
While preparing the card, we cannot execute any dps spell.
The damage loss during card preparation can be balanced by stronger/longer card effect.
The number here is still estimation so feel free to change or comment this concept.

As much as I would like a bit more complexity with AST's cards, I started to get a headache as soon as I read "change your damage spell into card".

I think it's best that the cards stay independent of our other skills that aren't directly related to the cards themselves.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

As much as I would like a bit more complexity with AST's cards, I started to get a headache as soon as I read "change your damage spell into card".

I think it's best that the cards stay independent of our other skills that aren't directly related to the cards themselves.

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Thanks for the comment.
Well we can separate the card button but im afraid AST will have too many button for the card (6 card button + 2 draw button)
The idea is to spent your GCD for card preparation.
Its mimicking DNC step and NIN mudra.
Hence we can give more impactful buff because the dps loss during card preparation

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Its mimicking DNC step and NIN mudra.
Hence we can give more impactful buff because the dps loss during card preparation

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I see what you're trying to say now, though since healers also have to, y'know, heal, it's a bit trickier to stop to shuffle cards and not be able to heal. Especially with the way some people want to take damage on purpose. That's why it's easier to weave it between GCD skills so it doesn't actually interfere with anything else you need to do.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I see what you're trying to say now, though since healers also have to, y'know, heal, it's a bit trickier to stop to shuffle cards and not be able to heal. Especially with the way some people want to take damage on purpose. That's why it's easier to weave it between GCD skills so it doesn't actually interfere with anything else you need to do.

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Yeah thats why we also have to think "what is the optimal time to play our card"
In raid, our co-healer can cover the heal if we are in playing card stance since they can see the Draw stance in the party list
This game design also give us a lot of healing downtime anyway :3

I like the idea conceptually and think it would be a better progression of what we are currently working with.

Personally, I'd actually like to take damage buffs off the OGCD actions and rework their support to be GCD reliant. I think the way we need to move to make the healers each feel different is to focus in on how they contribute to RDPS and make them fundamentally different from that angle, and I think Astrologian is perfect to create a healer who uses their non-healing GCDs to buff allies and contribute to RDPS through dedicated support--catering to players who don't want to be DPSing as healers, but keeping your contribution interesting and unique. It would have to be raw potency boosts and not percentages.

I disagree with tying the different kinds of cards to damage abilities. Just not something I think should be a thing. One would have to consider if the rDPS gains these cards contribute effectively make up the pDPS loss the AST receives by sacrificing a damage GCD. I’d rather just two separate Draws that randomize effects, because the entire idea of card reading and reading the fates/stars is that it’s not always guaranteed.

As for the card effects, I’m all for more varied effects—but some of these are lackluster. Determination is not the greatest of stats—though I get where you were coming from in wanting to avoid a card that gave just a flat damage increase, Arrow would, once again, be a card not often used because the increase wouldn’t be worth it over either of your offensive cards. At least with old Arrow affecting Skill Speed/Spell Speed, you could find jobs that liked it (e.g., SAM, BLM). If DPS jobs all had sub stats that benefited them more than others—instead of crit being king 9 times out of 10—then these effects would work better. SB had certain jobs that favored Crit over others (BRD, MNK), and early SAM benefited a lot from D.Hit. I’d like to see more variance in the sub stats that benefit each job. Otherwise, why have Crit, D.Hit, and Determination as separate when there’s always one stat that is best for everyone.

The physical and magical mitigation would only work if you had a way to simply store them for an opportune moment. Otherwise, there’s not much need in using your Umbral Draw idea when Astral Draw would be better because damage. A healing potency increase would also be unnecessary because healers are already overpowered in their healing. And then you have to consider that very good healers often spend more time DPSing than actually healing because most content simply doesn’t call for high healing uptime. Increasing the potency of healing is simply unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I disagree with tying the different kinds of cards to damage abilities. Just not something I think should be a thing. One would have to consider if the rDPS gains these cards contribute effectively make up the pDPS loss the AST receives by sacrificing a damage GCD. I’d rather just two separate Draws that randomize effects, because the entire idea of card reading and reading the fates/stars is that it’s not always guaranteed.

As for the card effects, I’m all for more varied effects—but some of these are lackluster. Determination is not the greatest of stats—though I get where you were coming from in wanting to avoid a card that gave just a flat damage increase, Arrow would, once again, be a card not often used because the increase wouldn’t be worth it over either of your offensive cards. At least with old Arrow affecting Skill Speed/Spell Speed, you could find jobs that liked it (e.g., SAM, BLM). If DPS jobs all had sub stats that benefited them more than others—instead of crit being king 9 times out of 10—then these effects would work better. SB had certain jobs that favored Crit over others (BRD, MNK), and early SAM benefited a lot from D.Hit. I’d like to see more variance in the sub stats that benefit each job. Otherwise, why have Crit, D.Hit, and Determination as separate when there’s always one stat that is best for everyone.

The physical and magical mitigation would only work if you had a way to simply store them for an opportune moment. Otherwise, there’s not much need in using your Umbral Draw idea when Astral Draw would be better because damage. A healing potency increase would also be unnecessary because healers are already overpowered in their healing. And then you have to consider that very good healers often spend more time DPSing than actually healing because most content simply doesn’t call for high healing uptime. Increasing the potency of healing is simply unnecessary.

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With different effect in each card, there will always be "the best card"
Well the card effect can be adjuated to sps/sks or other effect
Just dont homogenize all the cards

Umbral Draw exist because not everyone focus only in buffing dps
There are some people who enjoy using card like Bole, Spire, Ewer back in HW and SB
They like to help their party member in a different way

If people prefer focusing in damage buff then feel free to only using Astral Card
Other may have a different preference and play Umbral Card instead or even use both card

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

With different effect in each card, there will always be "the best card"
Well the card effect can be adjuated to sps/sks or other effect
Just dont homogenize all the cards

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Wasn’t suggesting to homogenize the cards—I hate the new system as much as most ASTs do and all cards being Baby Balances.

Determination is weak. Skill Speed/Spell Speed would be much better even if it only benefited a couple of jobs (e.g., SAM and BLM). This is not about “there will always be a best card” but about the fact that your chosen effect for The Arrow ensures it will be just like old Spire: Minor Arcana fodder.

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Umbral Draw exist because not everyone focus only in buffing dps
There are some people who enjoy using card like Bole, Spire, Ewer back in HW and SB
They like to help their party member in a different way

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Unless you can store utility cards, damage cards are always preferred. Especially since healing is so overpowered in most content, and damage—be it busters or raid-wides—are not all that threatening outside of Savage/Ultimate.

You don’t need to tell me that people enjoyed using at least Bole and Ewer back in the day. I’ve played AST since HW and know that. I was one of them: not afraid to use a Ewer on myself—or slot it in my Spread if I had a bad party that was draining my mana—or Enhance a Bole for a tank to use during a mass dungeon pull so I could DPS. The issue is less that people don’t want to use them but that damage is always the better option when you have offensive and defensive options competing with one another. It would be preferable to eliminate that and add more credence to the offensive/defensive split in the major arcana.

Spire has always been borderline useless, though. Especially in SB when all DPS that used TP had access to Invigorate, Goad was a role skill for melee, and ranged all had Tactician. Outside of extreme AOE situations, TP management wasn’t really a thing. It hasn’t been a thing since HW—which was why they did away with it in ShB.

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If people prefer focusing in damage buff then feel free to only using Astral Card
Other may have a different preference and play Umbral Card instead or even use both card

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One of the major cited failings of the previous system was that damage cards always trumped utility cards. They were always in competition with each other. Give two different Spreads—one for offensive cards, and one for defensive/utility cards—and there is no longer a competition. That was my suggestion to improve your proposed system, but you seem to have not given it any thought.

I feel like you skimmed over what I wrote without really reading it, based on this reply. Please go back and reread it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Wasn’t suggesting to homogenize the cards. Did you read my criticisms of your chosen substats? Determination is weak. Skill Speed/Spell Speed would be much better even if it only benefited a couple of jobs (e.g., SAM and BLM). This is not about “there will always be a best card” but about the fact that your chosen effect for The Arrow ensures it will be just like old Spire: Minor Arcana fodder.



Unless you can store utility cards, damage cards are always preferred. Especially since healing is so overpowered in most content, and damage—be it busters or raid-wides—are not all that threatening outside of Savage/Ultimate.

You don’t need to tell me that people enjoyed using at least Bole and Ewer back in the day. I’ve played AST since HW and know that. Spire has always been borderline useless, though. Especially in SB when all DPS that used TP had access to Invigorate, Goad was a role skill for melee, and ranged all had Tactician. Outside of extreme AOE situations, TP management wasn’t really a thing.



One of the major cited failings of the previous system was that damage cards always trumped utility cards. They were always in competition with each other. Give two different Spreads—one for offensive cards, and one for defensive/utility cards—and there is no longer a competition.

I feel like you skimmed over what I wrote without really reading it, based on this reply. Please go back and reread it.

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Astral Draw and Umbral Draw have a separate CD
So you can use them independently
The cost of using card is the loss of malefic during card preparation

Well spire is only useful when you raise a dead melee or dps who cannot manage their TP
The usefulness of a card is depend on the situation
If you can control card buff, then all card will be useful in different situation

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Astral Draw and Umbral Draw have a separate CD
So you can use them independently
The cost of using card is the loss of malefic during card preparation

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While AST being overly busy is a pretty common complaint, I'd like it to remain somewhat busy. That's one of the things that pulled me to the class. Putting aside the question of balancing cards with the loss of AST's own damage, replacing spells with card draws would slow down the class significantly.

There are other ways to give players control over cards. AST still has undraw. That could be changed to something useful. Redraw could lose its random aspect and just become "change seal" or "change card to astral/umbral equivalent".

I'd like to see meaning given to seals. Right now they're just a carry over of the old RNG. I'd prefer if we could control what seals we stored to create a secondary buff. So for example, each solar seal would add maybe 1% damage reduction to cards played or to Divination. If you were expecting having damage, you'd draw 3 boles/balances. Such a system would work well with the redraw change I mentioned above that turned it into a seal change. That's just one way to provide additional control without button bloat.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Wasn’t suggesting to homogenize the cards—I hate the new system as much as most ASTs do and all cards being Baby Balances.

You don’t need to tell me that people enjoyed using at least Bole and Ewer back in the day. I’ve played AST since HW and know that. I was one of them: not afraid to use a Ewer on myself—or slot it in my Spread if I had a bad party that was draining my mana—or Enhance a Bole for a tank to use during a mass dungeon pull so I could DPS. The issue is less that people don’t want to use them but that damage is always the better option when you have offensive and defensive options competing with one another. It would be preferable to eliminate that and add more credence to the offensive/defensive split in the major arcana.

Spire has always been borderline useless, though. Especially in SB when all DPS that used TP had access to Invigorate, Goad was a role skill for melee, and ranged all had Tactician. Outside of extreme AOE situations, TP management wasn’t really a thing. It hasn’t been a thing since HW—which was why they did away with it in ShB.



One of the major cited failings of the previous system was that damage cards always trumped utility cards. They were always in competition with each other. Give two different Spreads—one for offensive cards, and one for defensive/utility cards—and there is no longer a competition. That was my suggestion to improve your proposed system, but you seem to have not given it any thought.

I feel like you skimmed over what I wrote without really reading it, based on this reply. Please go back and reread it.

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preach, I just want to say exactly how you feel. I hate the new AST system in final fantasy 14, it removes all the complexity that AST had and every card is a baby balance which I hate so very much...I miss lady being a healing card and Lord being damage card. AST is not the job I fell in love with and I wish I can play the AST with the old card system, even if it's all the cards are just a 1% boost. AST is not the job I fell in love with anymore and FFXIV is slowly pushing me away with it's homogenized and simplistic job designs they are adding in every expansion from storm blood

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

While AST being overly busy is a pretty common complaint, I'd like it to remain somewhat busy. That's one of the things that pulled me to the class. Putting aside the question of balancing cards with the loss of AST's own damage, replacing spells with card draws would slow down the class significantly.

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Its not like the dps button will be replaced by card button all the time.
Its only replaced during the card preparation just like DNC step replacing their dps button.
After using the card, the button will be back to original dps button.
So we dont need additional separated button for card.
Also the card CD is around 1 sec just like DNC step CD.

Please see this:
Astral Draw --> 1 sec --> hold card --> 1 sec--> burn card --> 1 sec --> Play --> 2.5 sec --> Back to malefic spam

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Its not like the dps button will be replaced by card button all the time.
Its only replaced during the card preparation just like DNC step replacing their dps button.
After using the card, the button will be back to original dps button.
So we dont need additional separated button for card.
Also the card CD is around 1 sec just like DNC step CD.

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Like I said before, unless the cards provide enough rDPS gain to offset the GCDs that the AST loses prepping the cards, then your system will not be worth it. DNC's Standard and Technical are worth the time they spend not attacking because the hit of Standard Finish and Technical Finish have a high enough potency on their own, plus the rDPS gains the Dance Partner and the raid earn from the ability.

That said, I prefer the weaving between attacking GCDs instead of turning a GCD into a card. I feel like that will slow the job down and take away from the busyness that I so loved about AST when I picked it up back in HW.

DNC steps are also 1.5s per step. Not 1s.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Like I said before, unless the cards provide enough rDPS gain to offset the GCDs that the AST loses prepping the cards, then your system will not be worth it. DNC's Standard and Technical are worth the time they spend not attacking because the hit of Standard Finish and Technical Finish have a high enough potency on their own, plus the rDPS gains the Dance Partner and the raid earn from the ability.

That said, I prefer the weaving between attacking GCDs instead of turning a GCD into a card. I feel like that will slow the job down and take away from the busyness that I so loved about AST when I picked it up back in HW.

DNC steps are also 1.5s per step. Not 1s.

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Thats why we can make our buff stronger to compensate for the malefic loss.
The buff potency and effect still in concept and you can change it to balance the loss of malfic.

Every 30 sec you have to arrange/combine the card before using it
Current card is only draw+redraw and slap it to people for every 30 sec.
Oh and dont forget the seal fishing.

I dont like the current card effect because its feel weak.
I prefer to have stronger effect card.
We can have the same dps spell potency and stronger card effect.
The balance is come from not casting dps spell during card preparation.

Oh yeah i forget the DNC step is 1.5 sec.
Thanks for correcting this.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Its not like the dps button will be replaced by card button all the time.
Its only replaced during the card preparation just like DNC step replacing their dps button.

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I understood that, but a big part of why AST feels like AST is that you don't stop to perform card actions or spells. When played well, AST does both things at once. Spells on the GCD and cards weaved between. In your system playing cards means that you stop casting. That may only happen every 30 or so seconds but it would take away from the feeling of playing AST in my opinion. I wouldn't take the additional damage in place of that.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Thats why we can make our buff stronger to compensate for the malefic loss.
The buff potency and effect still in concept and you can change it to balance the loss of malfic.

Every 30 sec you have to arrange/combine the card before using it
Current card is only draw+redraw and slap it to people for every 30 sec.
Oh and dont forget the seal fishing.

I dont like the current card effect because its feel weak.
I prefer to have stronger effect card.
We can have the same dps spell potency and stronger card effect.
The balance is come from not casting dps spell during card preparation.

Oh yeah i forget the DNC step is 1.5 sec.
Thanks for correcting this.

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This sounds more like a concept for a new healer, such as Chemist for example.

Yeah, I would rather this concept be put into Chemist rather than AST. I don't really like the idea of being able to just select what cards and Royal Road effects you get without a layer of RNG.

Well, if you don't afraid other healer might upset you can have major card that give the entire party a movement speed boost equal to sprint.