Belah'dia and Sil'dih Lore?

Allusions to Shadowbringers spoilers ahoy!

Like the title suggests, I'm doing some digging to find the lore we currently have on Belah'dia and Sil'dih. If anyone has info/is willing to lore and analysis dump offhand honestly I'd appreciate it a lot!

Like whether lalafells have always been in power with hyurs in the position of sultansworn (I know Belah'dia had sultans too, but I can't remember if Ellie and her sister from Hildabrand were descended from Sil'dih royalty or not), whether there's any info on mummies as compared to zombies, worship of Azeyma/Temple of Qarn analysis, how society was impacted in the wake of the War of the Magi, whether stone moving tied to some form of creation magics specifically or conjury, etc. Any details really.

Personal theory here, but I think Belah'dia are the descendants of the Meracydian civilization that spawned Sophia, or at the very least that civilization once had colonies on the mainland of Eorzea that the Belah'dians would later draw parts of their religion and iconography from. At the very least, we know Qarn is supposedly much older than the Belah'dian kingdom that appropriated it, and the similarities between Sophia and Azeyma suggests to me that they're historically related somehow.
Also, I've heard that a symbol seemingly related to Sephirot is present on both the temple and Meracydian ruins found on Azys Lla, so that's another connection right there.

If you mean the 'Cathedral' ruin in Azys Lla, it indeed has Azeyma's glyph on it, although I seem to recall SE mentioning not to read too much into it and that they just recycled textures from the various ruins in Thanalan when they designed it, but I can't find the citation for that so don't take my word on that (I'm probably wrong thus accordingly).

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Originally Posted by Veloran

the similarities between Sophia and Azeyma suggests to me that they're historically related somehow.

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I'm curious as to what you mean by this?

Belah'dia and the two nations that split off it were all started by lalafell to be a mage state like Mcach, where they came from, but without the actual black magic and void summoning. Hyur invaded Thanalan 800 years ago and fought the lalafell since apparently that's what hyur did back then. Belah'dia split apart after the sultan's twin sons fought each other. Eventually after many wars, Ul'dah won by zombifying the populace of Sil'dih. The sultan was found out by a hyuran noble and jailed for the rest of his life. The hyuran noble started the Thorne dynasty which lasted 200 years of him and his descendants acting as "regents" until the city-state became stable enough to hand power back to the sultan. It was during this time that the Syndicate became a thing and Ul'dah relocated their entire city to be on top of the ruins of Sil'dih, where it is now (I have no idea where it was before).

The secrets of black magic were sealed long ago until a specific lalafell and his beastman friends uncovered it. Thaumaturgy is just considered "arcane magic" and is linked to Ul'dah religious practices relating to the dead.

Ellie and her sister are descendants of Sil'dih aristocracy, not royalty. Sil'dih royalty were lalafell like Ul'dah royalty.

One thing there, Baldaric Thorne was stated as being the actual sultan, not just a regent, this makes the Thorne dynasty as pretenders not regents. This is probably why they only lasted a short time before the rightful Ul dynasty was restored, but the family line still survived (as shown by their modern distant descendant Miriel, Nanamo's handmaiden).

The game mentions Baldaric Throne's title as Sultan Baldaric Thorne in at least one incidence not 'Regent' (Little Ladies Day is meant to date back to the Thorne dynasty from a story about his daughter Princess Edvya - the Edvya minion descripton mentions this).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

One thing there, Baldaric Thorne was stated as being the actual sultan, not just a regent, this makes the Thorne dynasty as pretenders not regents. This is probably why they only lasted a short time before the rightful Ul dynasty was restored, but the family line still survived (as shown by their modern distant descendant Miriel, Nanamo's handmaiden).

The game mentions Baldaric Throne's title as Sultan Baldaric Thorne in at least one incidence not 'Regent' (Little Ladies Day is meant to date back to the Thorne dynasty from a story about his daughter Princess Edvya - the Edvya minion descripton mentions this).

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The book uses the word “steward” instead of “regent”, but they’re fundamentally the same thing. I also wonder how much of the backstory was fudged in between 1.0 and ARR and how much was kept. Trying to reconcile a hyur sultan being referenced in a holiday during 1.0 sounds like a lore headache unless it was planned the whole time. There were other elements of 1.0’s lore that don’t quite match up anymore.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

...but the family line still survived (as shown by their modern distant descendant Miriel, Nanamo's handmaiden)

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This is the second time I've seen you mention this recently, but it's not stated as fact unless it's buried in a Q&A somewhere or intended to be read between the lines. There's talk that a descendent to the Thorne Dynasty has been found, but it's never said to be Meriel - although if true, it would make sense as to why she was willing to participate in the plot.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The book uses the word “steward” instead of “regent”, but they’re fundamentally the same thing. I also wonder how much of the backstory was fudged in between 1.0 and ARR and how much was kept. Trying to reconcile a hyur sultan being referenced in a holiday during 1.0 sounds like a lore headache unless it was planned the whole time. There were other elements of 1.0’s lore that don’t quite match up anymore.

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That wasn't 1.0 lore though but ARR - the first ARR era Little Ladies Day event in 2014 incidentally. The 'Wind-up Edvya' minion states Baldaric Throne was the sultan twice in it's description in the Minion list, and has never been altered even after the lore book's release:

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Originally Posted by help text description for the Wind-up Edvya minion

"Sometimes moonlights as a miller girl, much to her father the sultan's chagrin"

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Originally Posted by Minion Log Description for the Wind-up Edvya minion

Forty years after the founding of the Thorne Dynasty, Sultan Baldric Thorne was blessed by the gods with a single daughter, Edvya, whom he loved fiercely. The history surrounding the two, now known as the "Legend of the Lost Lady" gave rise to the festival of Little Ladies' Day.

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Given the lore book is aknowledged to be not entirelly accurate when it comes to contradictions to what is stated in game, I'm liable to take the in-game information as still accurate, lacking any clarification from SE either way.

You are right about a lot of 1.0 lore no longer being relevant however.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

This is the second time I've seen you mention this recently, but it's not stated as fact unless it's buried in a Q&A somewhere or intended to be read between the lines. There's talk that a descendent to the Thorne Dynasty has been found, but it's never said to be Meriel - although if true, it would make sense as to why she was willing to participate in the plot.

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Rereading screenshots of the relevant dialouge reveals that Lolorito's wording indeed doesn't outright mention Meriel as the Thorne descendent, other than stating a female member of the line had been found, but he certainly insinuaites it (and serving the ruling family as a handmaiden in many real world monarchies was often a task given to members of the aristocracy or other claimants for the throne to keep them complaint, so it makes sense). And like you said, it explains Meriel's subserviency in the whole affair.

But again it seems I kind of overstepped things, so thank you for clarifying that. :)

According to Astro lore The Balance is represented by Nald and Thal, representing life and death, and Azeyma keeping the equilibrium as warden of the scales. Aside from fitting Sophia to a T, this also draws parallels to the whole of the Warring Triad, with Sephirot being a god of life, Zurvan being a god of death, and Sophia being the equilibrium between the two forces.

I'm not sure the lore we have on when the Hyur came to Eorzea is accurate, given they seem to have been present at least in both Allag and Mhach fairly significantly.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Snip.

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He is referred to as both steward and sultan. The point of me referring to that in the first place is that he and his descendants were only sultans until the city-state became stable enough to hand power over to the original family. The first mention of the Thorne family came from one of the 1.0 Little Ladies’ Day events and I remember because I was there and also confused back then since I had thought they were lalafell all the way down. Been wondering what the deal was there until it was finally spelled out.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

According to Astro lore The Balance is represented by Nald and Thal, representing life and death, and Azeyma keeping the equilibrium as warden of the scales. Aside from fitting Sophia to a T, this also draws parallels to the whole of the Warring Triad, with Sephirot being a god of life, Zurvan being a god of death, and Sophia being the equilibrium between the two forces.

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I think it could be more the other way around, with these beliefs traveling to Meracydia before the time the Allagans came. Similar beliefs in the Twelve exist as far as Othard as well. But after the time of the Allagan Empire, Meracydia became a chaotic wasteland and I don’t think any of its inhabitants are in any position to travel to Thanalan to influence religion.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I'm not sure the lore we have on when the Hyur came to Eorzea is accurate, given they seem to have been present at least in both Allag and Mhach fairly significantly.

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This is another weird lore welding thing the writing team had to do for ARR. In 1.0, we hear about the immigration of non-elezen to Eorzea as if they’d never been here before. In ARR, apparently hyur left much of Aldenard after the calamity and had to come back in different waves of immigration. I believe there’s some interview with Koji where this is brought up. I still don’t understand why Mcachian hyur didn’t come to Thanalan either and it was just the dunesfolk. That’s another weird ARR lore loophole caused by their inexplicable decision to write in all the calamities.

The point I was getting at is that there seems to have been a fair degree of cross pollination going on between Meracydia and Eorzea at one point. When that would be is open to speculation. As for the Hyur, there is at least a reason for them to have migrated away for a time, considering the massive floods. It does seem kind of unbelievable that there were none present in either Gelmorra or Ishgard (or Dravanian Ishgard for that matter) though.

Was just watching this video on the history of Ul'dah, Belah'dia and Sil'dih and jumped over to the lore forums. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ikLQIHIUE

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Originally Posted by Monte318

Was just watching this video on the history of Ul'dah, Belah'dia and Sil'dih and jumped over to the lore forums. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ikLQIHIUE

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Take these videos with some caution. Guy's been wrong before sans literally spelling out what words mean.

Hey everyone, wanna take a sec to say thanks a ton for the help with this! Got offline-busy for a bit, but still plan to research further and this really helped a lot! ^^ I did see the Ethys Asher youtube and figure there are very good points to consider, also found the regent versus sultan question really interesting and helpful. I do think it makes sense that there is some kind of commonality between Meracydia, Belah'dia, Sil'dih, and Ul'dah but right now would want to examine closer before reaching definitive conclusions. I'm honestly still really fascinated by them having a lot of stone-manipulation given both the golems used by Ascians and stone manipulation in conjury given this is all post-War of the Magi and might be fun to speculate there. More comments always welcome and if I spot anything will absolutely throw it over, just want to say I appreciate the feedback! You guys rock!