Was anyone else disappointed by this raid tier?

Either mechanically or creativity-wise.... I really just felt let down this raid tier. I loved Eden's 1-4 but 5-8 felt so... "eh".
There are obvious spoilers below btw if that's not a given. Both for normal and savage variants

E5 - Music was great. Theme... durr hurr what two thunder related things have we fought... IXION AND RAMUH. Sure, whatever, that's fine... At least then we'll see something creative right?... Not really. Even the savage version of this they threw in a random bird to chase the off tank, otherwise its just grab orbs like Ramuh and don't be knocked off. It's not the worst of the bunch but I really never feel like any of the lightning based fights we get ever give me that vibe that I'm dealing with electricity/lightning very much anyways. The one neat idea I did like was fourteen's fury where you needed all 8 players to knock over the staves form their knockback... That in my opinion was neat to think outside the box but was about all as far as creativity goes. The phases of dodging random thunderbolts is cliche and old.... The mechanic in savage where the bolt gets traded to people is "neat" but ultimately nothing that impressive. Overall easy fight to boot.

E6 - Music still good but unfortunately this is where my expectations drop even lower. I was really hoping for all 4 of these to be element driven entirely but sure, put garuda and ifrit together... Surely their designs will be neat at least right?... WRONG. Garuda's just... Garuda, with more wings because it's gotta be something right? Ifrit's just a dude?.... You'd think how it's Eden, based off FF8, and the fact they could've went off the basis of the Amal'ja + Ifrit, they could've made a neat rendition of FF8's Ifrit looking akin to a fire beast. I'm not even asking for a copy from FF8 as FF14 is prone to doing... But maybe not just... a dude... with ifrit texture wrap on him. How do we even come up with that lore-wise?... As far as mechanics go, we all knew they'd fuse, which, sure... Neat. The soccer ball mechanic though to me makes no sense... where in anything Ifrit does, do we remember checking spots for fireballs and him kicking them or anything in that whole area? I do remember Ifrit having multiples of himself and charging through the center, so I'll give them that for having copies of himself but otherwise ??????? They both do a neat tank buster concept and aoe that pushes you into the air and either gets you slammed or pierced through the body which I do think aesthetically is actually pretty cool looking and unique to the fight. When it came to savage, there was a mechanic introduced with tethers, a few of them actually and at the same time, some wind cutters that interact with said tethers. My issue here is how they just... don't encourage anything but "don't do it". I would think they would introduce some neat concept of allowing you to decide whether or not you need to use the wind cutters to snap tethers for something but inevitably it ends up being a "if you go too far and you let them get cut, you just wipe your team :D". It was why I enjoyed the tank buster in the later half of savage before they fuse but after the initial 1v1's... the tether could be cut and used in such a fashion to abuse Ifrit's aggro when he performs his tank buster after the two come out together. Never again though, everything from there on is just claustrophobia and the boss wagging their finger "don't do that or wipe :D" rather than anything creative that actually requires you to think. The most thinking I did for the fight ended up being in the soccer ball conga line and it's not even a hard mechanic to do... just literally process the path and don't be hit.. Nothing that really gave responsibilities to individual members or created a sense of "synergy" in performance.

E7 - Ironically, the one I thought I would enjoy the least, I ended up loving the most. No new music though, just back to E1 and E2. I actually enjoyed this fight very much mechanically and aesthetically... even if it kinda comes out of no where. It was obvious from normal mode that savage would be doing up the portal mechanics and applications of light and darkness debuffs and even then it still ended up being fun to figure out. The tornado at the end is always neat as a tank because your'e taking turns figuring out who should get which orb. The "away with you" teleports are pretty annoying in halting your rotation but when it came down to figuring out the path was random, finding out which one was yours and how your own group could confuse you... I thought that was well implemented and how you needed to use it in savage to dodge aoe's and placement was also very neat. The add phase even was pretty cool to add a third mob that rotates a random direction. Overall, the creativity and fun they had with this fight was much better than E5 or 6 as every mechanic made me calculate/think a little for myself and gave players enough agency to have multiple strategies of their own for each mechanic to decide how they want to position. I love the concept of using the opponent's abilities to your advantage to dodge the other attacks but simultaneously still being something lethal that can kill you It doesn't feel like the boss gives you a key to a doorway that ONLY unlocks with that one key because it says so. Instead it still slams the door in your face but gives you a few methods to find out how to get through, ultimately you're still faced with a challenge and the reward is the satisfaction you get when going "AHA! I DID IT!" rather than "Oh... I didn't get in your perfectly aligned safe spot in time because that's all you're allowing right now". The latter feels too... "planned", which isn't bad if it follows a mechanic to lead into a false sense of security but ultimately it just says I'm going to be playing Simon Says just to survive. Like, of course you want me to stand there and not in any of this area that's marked... that's literally all I can do and that's that... Thankfully, this boss didn't feel like that to me at all even when my group developed a set strategy in savage for each mechanic.

E8 - Ah and then we return to disappointment... probably the biggest one. I'ma mark this as spoilers just in case but I'm not gonna lie... it's not that interesting or unique.

The music is outstanding, again, nothing wrong so far with most of the music. Soken doesn't disappoint. Storywise.... I doubt there was a single person who thought Ryne doing this was at ALL a good idea... just literally out of no where "ya know what, I WANNA BE A PROBLEM" just cuz out of no where... good lord that writing made me cringe for her reasoning in doing this. I knew Shiva would be our final fight but I was really hoping they'd take a much more interesting approach in it.... Memories of Haurchefant and Shiva/Iceheart... maybe a male version of Shiva? Or how about a duo of them both? Maybe just a big ice dragon transformation? No.... We get Ryne but with shiva texture over her and her transformation in savage?... literally just gets naked and wraps a random Hraesvalgr around her. No cool big ice dragon idea for us... nothing at all akin to how amazing titan's transformation was back in E4s. GOD this was so stupid...Mechanically, I felt like I was back in Shiva again... so I guess mission accomplished there. They grew really fond of enumeration mechanics this raid set so of course light rampant was... "fun". The mirrors mechanic was probably the most interesting concept in the fight and honestly... it's not that original/creative(not compared to how Hades handled his mirror mechanic at least). It's as simple as Light + Ice... I get it, but good lord thematically it offered nothing new/interesting and mechanically felt recycled. Very basic "dodge the thing" aoe's but the worst thing about this fight is in the normal mode of it... It's another case of Hades where the first time going through that cutscene was "wow COOL, OKAY I'M FEELING IT!..." and after doing it over 10 times or getting it in roulette again and again... you have to sit through that whole sequence EVERY SINGLE TIME. The only good thing out of it is noticing goth girl is using powers similar to Ultemecia so there's all the more proof/hope that our final raid tier will revolve around her becoming a time witch like in FF8 and maybe some interesting time mechanics that weren't already done in Alexander. For real though, why is Hraesvalgr just summoned in there for no reason.... Just, what a WEIRD CHOICE FOR ALL THE POSSIBILITIES??!?!

Overall.... It's not a "bad" raid tier but I definitely was not as wow'd or impressed as I was with the first 4 we had. Considering how they set things up too, I really had my expectations on creativity and cool/interesting designs based on the WoL's memory. Mechanically taking advantage of the concepts as well but... instead it just feels like a LOT of missed opportunities. Even throwing my FF8 fandom out the window, I just simple went "... why?" to a lot of these things and the mechanics of them weren't all that jaw dropping or gave me that lightbulb that makes me feel accomplished in figuring it out... Except E7, that one was alright.

No mention for the Copied Factory? I sense a lot of bias here

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

No mention for the Copied Factory? I sense a lot of bias here

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Not really the raid tier, 24 mans excluded lol. Neir was great at least so far anyways though but it's not really the regular raid content that most refer to when they say "the tier".

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Originally Posted by Valic

Not really the raid tier, 24 mans excluded lol. Neir was great at least so far anyways though but it's not really the regular raid content that most refer to when they say "the tier".

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Why are you excluding 24 man roulette?

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

Why are you excluding 24 man roulette?

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Read what I said. Not repeating myself here.

Even if the 24-man were included, Copied Factory really isn't the current raid tier?

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Originally Posted by Valic

Read what I said. Not repeating myself here.

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ok, but square Enix said 24 man roulette is called alliance raid, so you forgot to include copied factory

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Even if the 24-man were included, Copied Factory really isn't the current raid tier?

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Copied Factory was released in shadowbingers..

It didn't bother me at first, since I thought it was a cool premise to see the Primal fights envisioned differently. Though when it was announced that we're also due to get an 'Unreal' mode for older Primal fights, I already feel the burnout approaching. Especially since the first Unreal fight is against Shiva, who we already fought as part of this raid tier.

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

Copied Factory was released in shadowbingers..

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Usually when people talk about raid tiers they refer to the 8-man raid series, which release on different patches than the 24-man alliance raids.

I didn't hate it all that much, save for the server tick issues on Shiva and the BLUE ON BLUE ON WHITE ON OH LOOK, MORE BLUE. Progging Shiva was absolutely draining due to the sheer eye strain.

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Originally Posted by Destati

Usually when people talk about raid tiers they refer to the 8-man raid series, which release on different patches than the 24-man alliance raids.

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Hes just a forum troll, pay him no mind. His main has ultimate clears, and this is like his 3rd account on here. the other 2 have been banned.

Ramuh's music was great, Ifrit's design should have been more beastly, E7 gives me Spirited Away vibes with its paper birds and the teleportation mechanic stresses me out.

As for E8...

Ryne was on thin ice for me (no pun intended I swear) this whole expansion due to her connection with Minfillia, but with E8 I pretty much lost what little tolerance I had for her. She shoehorned herself into a fight that could have had a huge emotional impact given the WoL's connection to Shiva but thanks to her meddling the encounter is irritating at best. The mechanics in which she removes/changes her clothes make me deeply uncomfortable given her age and I am not a fan of Hraesvelgr's implementation.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It didn't bother me at first, since I thought it was a cool premise to see the Primal fights envisioned differently. Though when it was announced that we're also due to get an 'Unreal' mode for older Primal fights, I already feel the burnout approaching. Especially since the first Unreal fight is against Shiva, who we already fought as part of this raid tier.

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God I hadn't even thought about that.... Yeah I'm sure that wont get stale quick.

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Originally Posted by Enla

I didn't hate it all that much, save for the server tick issues on Shiva and the BLUE ON BLUE ON WHITE ON OH LOOK, MORE BLUE. Progging Shiva was absolutely draining due to the sheer eye strain.

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Tbh, yeah... it could've been worse though I figure.

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Originally Posted by Destati

*snip*

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That tidbit on Ryne..... good lordy she's starting to become the original Minfillia again huh? Just another character who's setting herself up for trouble "because lol".

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Originally Posted by Enla

I didn't hate it all that much, save for the server tick issues on Shiva and the BLUE ON BLUE ON WHITE ON OH LOOK, MORE BLUE. Progging Shiva was absolutely draining due to the sheer eye strain.

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server tick issues? I think Shiva was honestly the easiest fight in terms of when abilities go off. The cast bar reigns supreme in that fight. Whereas, in E5S, sometimes the cast bar is accurate, and sometimes it isn't.

E5: Boss design is alright for me, feels like Odin design based from mythology or other games, with thunder spears etc. Knock-back distance was bit hard to get in the beginning when group stacks. Seeing some familiar skills from old fight and powered up was fun.

E6: Was a-bit disappoint in music, wished could have some vocals. And mechanics' visibility was really bad, hope dev team can improve on this in future raids. Boss design is kinda new if you don't do ultimate fights since it can merge. Conflag Strike was cool, but only used once in entire fight expect enrage.

E7: Mechanics was fun to learn, that tornado in last phase looks good, I was like "oh, this is why they wants to force update to 64-bit system."

E8:

I'm a simple man, I see naked girl, I'm good with everything else even after wiped from LR hundreds of times...:p

Factory: As a Nier fan, song of ancients begins, 10/10 already, not even to mention the BGM in last boss. If story could have voice cast as Ivalice...only in dreams.

I hate Raiden so damn much

I mean, I enjoyed the fights. Not the most difficult tier but I thought they were trying something different. Shiva was a little harder than Titan, Omega, and Kefka so it felt like a mini-ultimate type fight. I still do weeklies for fun. If it were not enjoyable I would've stopped 3 months ago.

I was missing the gatekeeping mechanics on the 3rd boss.
E7s is the easiest fight of this tier and therefore a lot of slow learning players reached Shiva quite early.
These players then caused wipes in my e8s groups because they didn't understand LR.

I tilted so hard that I stopped trying e8s after no progress in week 2 and 3.

Story wise Shiva was.... Unreasonable.
If it would happen by accident, ok, would have made senses. But not like they did it in the story. That was the worst idea someone could imagine.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

server tick issues? I think Shiva was honestly the easiest fight in terms of when abilities go off. The cast bar reigns supreme in that fight. Whereas, in E5S, sometimes the cast bar is accurate, and sometimes it isn't.

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There were a couple times with my group where everyone would hit their knockback immunity at the same time while watching the cast bars, trying out the mirror uptime strat, and some people would still get flung off the edge on the second burst. That was the only real 'major' issue but it was consistent enough to be a hassle. Not in any way gamebreaking so much as it was mildly irritating.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

server tick issues? I think Shiva was honestly the easiest fight in terms of when abilities go off. The cast bar reigns supreme in that fight. Whereas, in E5S, sometimes the cast bar is accurate, and sometimes it isn't.

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Our static has definitely been seeing server tick issues in LR with balls straight up teleporting around and not being where their graphic is. The mechanic is really cool on paper, but it feels like the game can't handle it atm.

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Originally Posted by xenowind

E8:

I'm a simple man, I see naked girl, I'm good with everything else even after wiped from LR hundreds of times...:p

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Ew. Emphasis on "girl". She's a child.

You weren't the only one disappointed OP. Ramuh normal was dull, shiva was annoying and the plot requiring ryne was stupid (and i am less than pleased they shelved OG titan as the first unreal trial because he was too challenging. Get a grip SE...) the portals on e7 were cool concept but the delay between them coming down and firing was a bit long imo
e6...too simple. good idea with them merging but the merge was a disappointment. Was hoping to fight both of them at the same time a little more.

e5s i could basically sum up as the mechanics were good ideas but too clunky in practice and server tick annoyances related to movement and cast bars. I remember one instance of my static where we all ran to the safe spot in fury 14 part 2, the bolts went off and 6 members of the group died because of server tick. The birb was more annoying than interesting. The thunderstorm bolts also seemed to hit very oddly and clipping a lot

e6s felt lacking. I feel it should have had more mechanics, and the server tick again was a bane during footballs

e7s was terrible, when I healed it, i did very little for the first 2 minutes. ridiculous, at least e1s gave me a 70% hp smack to keep awake for! but i quit healing then because boredom and had to quit raiding because of irl things

e8s I haven't unlocked nevermind played. But I didn't like the normal mode, I have heard and seen on a few videos weird server tick abuse of the puddles and dragon heads being able to have no damage.
SE really needs to find ways of preventing mechs like that happening. I hated the sac strat in a4s way back when because it abused server ticks

I actually feel underwhelmed since the first tier. As a brief recap, E1S is okay but the cutscene should not be a thing in Savage, E2S was great (actually my favourite so far), E3S was meh (I think the debuff choreography is done better in O4S, and the split platform isnt used interestlingly), E4S is mostly ARR Titan but with squares instead of circles (I only liked the Uplift phases and Titan Maximum).

E5S is okay, it's just kind of boring in my opinion. The spears mechanic was nice, but that's really it.

E6S is actually my favourite fight of the tier. I like how there is a constant flow of micro mechanics that snowball into chaos if not done right. I liked of different it felt from original Garuda and Ifrit. I just wish the phase where they are both up could have been a bit more interseting and not just (again) 2 light parties.

E7S would have been a great opening fight for the tier actually, I don't really get why it's the third one. While the mechanics have potential to be challenging, everything can be (and thus, will be) dumbed down by standing over two squares. Everything appeared complex, but once you get it there isn't even a challenge in the execution. The tornado phase is a great addition, but a bit lackluster, and sometimes the server ticking on the orbs is frustrating.

E8S is a good fight but I think it has heavy design flaws. The cutscene to begin with, the add phase is meh. Then let's get to the meat of it, LR. It is not fun. Because it's unreadable when someone makes a mistake, thus making it hard to progress and learn. I think it took our static more time to prog and master LR than it took on the last phase. Outside of these major flaws I think the fight was okay for the mirrors. The Akh Morn / Akh Rai is getting old at this point.

In the end, all fight are pretty and have nice music, but I'm not enjoying them as much as the Stormblood ones. And some of them, I'm not enjoying at all when doing weeklies.

They weren't stunning or amazing, but I enjoyed them all, though I've barely started Shiva and this is my first savage tier so I don't really have a qualified opinion. 6-7/10 fights, could be better but still good fun. The color scheme for e6 and e8 is a bit rough, tanking didn't seem that fun and server ticks are a pain sometimes on e5.

I'm surprised e7 is considered the easiest and e6 considered hard, I found e6 quite straightforward and e7 was the hardest to pug so far (though I agree it's not a complex fight to execute). E6 feels very easy to heal too, though neither are particularly hard. I dislike the fact the e6 football mechanic isn't a threat at all due to being non-lethal and vuln wearing off before it matters, I'd expect that level of forgiveness on EX, not Savage.

The story was fine until Shiva where it took a nose dive into complete stupidity, had Ryne been forced into it by Eden because that is how we remembered Shiva being summoned, I would've like the story but what they did was pure contrivance and I hate it.

E5S - the only fight i've had seriver tick issues this tier, only on the knockback charge as sometimes the server will register me in the ponies charge despite me being furthest out in the group, rest of fight though it's alright, nothing too strenuous just got to sort out party strats.

E6S - the clashing colours of the arena and aoes really hurt some people’s eyes, i'm fortunate not to bothered but this fight definitely caused the most eye strain for people I came across. As a fight it felt fast paced and short, my issue now is it suffers from Zurvan syndrome "Skip Conflag or disband"

E7S - Easiest fight if doing braindead and well braindead is base strat so it's easiest, lots of cool visuals but slow in executing moves, just like E3S is the worse one to heal for sheer boredom (E3S took until Black smokers for me to care as a healer, here though least earlier in but there is still a 2 min pure gcd nuke spam at the start)

E8S - LR has 1 major flaw being that you cannot visually see what went wrong since everything goes off at once for a single mess up, i'm someone who is very aware of what me party is doing (years as a healer main) and it is so hard to tell where something went wrong, it would just be a hard mechanic if you could tell what happens but you can't without 3rd party tools so it goes from hard mechanic to outright frustrating one. The transition is too long, nice treat first ten times dull as sin the other hundred. Server do have trouble with dragon heads but players can adjust for it so not as bad as Ramuh. I find it great that this savage fight straight up says healers DPS hard no matter the gear or skill the party is using at this point in time. It defies Yoshi P's statement that they don't account for healer DPS and I love that the devs are going no you are doing Savage, high end content, you must dps healers. I also like this fight incorporates some CC, more please, standard comp has bind, sleep and heavy in it too, you can design around a group having these not just stun/silence.

I personally think both this and the last tier are very lazy. 5 times has ifrit, Garuda and Titan been added into the game as trials/fights. And then they’re adding updated versions of the old trials at level 80 making it 6 times. Lazy lazy lazy

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

I personally think both this and the last tier are very lazy. 5 times has ifrit, Garuda and Titan been added into the game as trials/fights. And then they’re adding updated versions of the old trials at level 80 making it 6 times. Lazy lazy lazy

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I mean, if the fights were exactly the same I'd agree with you, but even the models are different.

Short answer: no. I loved it.

Robust answer:
https://i.postimg.cc/Mcs0g3FS/13a7av3eoia51-1.png

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

I personally think both this and the last tier are very lazy. 5 times has ifrit, Garuda and Titan been added into the game as trials/fights. And then they’re adding updated versions of the old trials at level 80 making it 6 times. Lazy lazy lazy

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Tbh, the normal mode/hard mode/ex thing was something they were figuring out way back then in the beginning of ARR. Which none of those versions are similar and neither is Eden's. For longevity sake it makes sense for an MMO to milk things like this and just provide different experiences each one so I do expect the unreal ones to have big transformations akin to Alexander ultimate and so on.

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Originally Posted by Valic

Tbh, the normal mode/hard mode/ex thing was something they were figuring out way back then in the beginning of ARR. Which none of those versions are similar and neither is Eden's. For longevity sake it makes sense for an MMO to milk things like this and just provide different experiences each one so I do expect the unreal ones to have big transformations akin to Alexander ultimate and so on.

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They've already stated unreal difficulty is basically just "modernizing" the older extremes by raising the HP/damage values up to current gear levels and tweaking the mechanics a bit to be more in line with current standards; which I expect to be things like adding markers to mechanics that originally lacked them, removing the permadeath from falling at Leviathan and Titan, etc.

Eh, not really. So far I've enjoyed most of Eden, but I hate E7 with a burning passion.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, if the fights were exactly the same I'd agree with you, but even the models are different.

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While not exactly different, there are obvious similarities that can feel lazy for some people (I personally do). I don't think most fights really stand alone as "Eden brand new fights" rather than "this ARR primal with a twist". They can change the models and remix the music, I understand some people can feel it's kind of uninspired.

And then there's the Eden storyline which I forgot to mention in my previous post... eh.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

While not exactly different, there are obvious similarities that can feel lazy for some people (I personally do). I don't think most fights really stand alone as "Eden brand new fights" rather than "this ARR primal with a twist". They can change the models and remix the music, I understand some people can feel it's kind of uninspired.

And then there's the Eden storyline which I forgot to mention in my previous post... eh.

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They kinda wrote themselves into a corner with the primals.
Imo, we should've been summoning the twelve since they also have dominion over the elements.

E5 : I dislike this fight. I like the music and the boss design, I just find the mechanics boring. Progging in pugs was also rough considering it was the first fight in the tier and people were smashing their face against Furies 14 which is pretty early in the fight in almost every party.

E6 : Definitely my second favorite fight. The music is nothing to write home about, but it was fun to prog. I do think it's a little on the easy side with nothing unique that stands out. Also Ifrit hot.

E7 : Boring. Reused music, "interesting" boss design (I cannot even say uninspired because I guess a ball of birds is cool), and super easy mechanics once you understand the galaxy brain colors. Not a huge fan of the teleport mechanic because depending on which direction you get, can completely stop your rotation while you make sure you don't yeet yourself off the edge.

E8 : Love the boss design, love the music, love the arena. Outside of Light's Rampant, the fight is fun. You're always progging something new and she never repeats the same mechanic twice. Light's Rampant sucks though. It's a mechanic that needs more clarity upon wipes because it's difficult to determine what the hell happened if you wipe - everything looks and sounds the same. Was it chains or orbs? Which orb? Which 3 didn't stand in the middle? We will never know. As for the story... mmmmm mixed feelings. I understand that ultimately this tier was about Ryne growing up and becoming an independent woman, but I feel like the stakes were a *little* too high considering if we failed... well... The outfits did not bother me either as I viewed them as angelic rather than tantalizing because Ryne is a child, but it was definitely a choice since some people go ungabunga if they see female skin regardless of age.

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Originally Posted by xenowind

E8: I'm a simple man, I see naked girl, I'm good with everything else even after wiped from LR hundreds of times...:p

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Like this. She's a kid dude.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Like this. She's a kid dude.

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Yeah. The entity she is currently channeling might be ageless (or just very old period) but that's still Ryne underneath it all. So to me, thinking of her in that way like some apparently do is just plain wrong on so many levels.

I'm pretty sure the redress mechanic is supposed to be a symbolism between Shiva's weapon swapping mechanic back in ARR and the idea of light + purity type deal... She is indeed a child and it always weirds me out when someone brings that up but at the same time JP developers make children look like they're adults and vice versa too often so.... Doesn't surprise me people still do this. Same on the matter of lalafells these days... it's cute to see storylines in the game of romances and junk but when you talk about attraction to these things..... why?

All of that is off topic anyways... Really I think they could've done a LOT more creative concepts with E8s and everything else this tier tbh. That was why I liked E3 and E4 so much. Leviathan having 2 heads was neat, I can see how we thought of it too... Titan having a car.... I'm still on the fence about how we thought of that but it ended up being fun/unique/creative.

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Originally Posted by RagingStallion

Why are you excluding 24 man roulette?

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24 mans aren't part of the raid tier.