Revamping Dungeon Difficulty Adding a new Dungeon difficulty to the game and mechanic

Making certain abilities more relevant in this game will require some reimagining of how dungeons work. And the type of monsters you can run into could cause a full party wipe if not killed immediately or have their abilities stunned, silenced or interrupted. This would make certain abilities in the game more useable and the concept of adding Saboteur like abilities to the game. There is a difference between basic and too basic and I think they kind of went a little too far with how easy they made the content. This also gives healers another thing to do in battle other than just heal and damage. This also gives tanks Low Blow and Shield Smash usability.

1. Instead of adding a savage ultimate 8 man raid, they could add savage and ultimate 4 man dungeons that no, you cannot queue these on duty finder.

2. Adding a monster that needs to be killed immediately or will cause a party wipe and this will prevent tanks from pulling way too many mobs and wiping the whole party.

3. Have monsters in the game that will do nasty debuffs if they aren't silenced prevented which will make it even harder to complete. No one wants a dot tick for the whole dungeon on the tank which makes them take more damage. The healers would love it as they don't have much else to do except damage and healing.

4. Adding rare monsters that spawn in dungeons like mini-bosses. There is no guarantee that they will spawn but if they do, they can drop mounts or really good glamours.

5. Making bosses in dungeons 4-8 men have abilities that can be stunned and if you don't you are dead. This means the whole party has a responsibility to stop it happening. This doesn't mean that all abilities they cast are stunnable, just this ability right here and it is important for the tanks or the people fighting the boss that this ability is about to go off and you should have time to stop it.

6. Finally removing diminishing returns so everyone in the party has their own diminishing returns instead of it stacking up.

7. The trash monsters will not hit like wet noodles again. They will have abilities that will make your tank feel it, making each pull feel like hell. However, four-man savage and four-man ultimate it is much easier to organise than an eight-man but you will die just as much, if not more in these difficulties.

You know, if you really want to play WoW, just go play WoW.

1. Instead of adding a savage ultimate 8 man raid, they could add savage and ultimate 4 man dungeons that no, you cannot queue these on duty finder.
The Great Hunt EX. It's not a dungeon, but it is still 4-man. The only thing really missing are the large pulls of trash before getting to him.

2. Adding a monster that needs to be killed immediately or will cause a party wipe and this will prevent tanks from pulling way too many mobs and wiping the whole party.
So you mean bosses?

3. Have monsters in the game that will do nasty debuffs if they aren't silenced prevented which will make it even harder to complete. No one wants a dot tick for the whole dungeon on the tank which makes them take more damage. The healers would love it as they don't have much else to do except damage and healing.
1.0 dungeons like Aurum Vale would place a DoT on everyone just for being inside the dungeon. Wanderers Palace HM has a dungeon mechanic where valves need to be turned off, and there is another 'toxic environment' dungeon that slips my mind. These kind of things are not engaging or fun; they are just annoyances meant to slow down the run.

4. Adding rare monsters that spawn in dungeons like mini-bosses. There is no guarantee that they will spawn but if they do, they can drop mounts or really good glamours.
This is the best idea you have right here. This will get me inside a dungeon.

5. Making bosses in dungeons 4-8 men have abilities that can be stunned and if you don't you are dead. This means the whole party has a responsibility to stop it happening. This doesn't mean that all abilities they cast are stunnable, just this ability right here and it is important for the tanks or the people fighting the boss that this ability is about to go off and you should have time to stop it.
Again, there are ARR dungeons that do exactly this. There will be objects players have to interact with in order to stop the boss from going HAM. Halatali HM has it, so does Hulbreakers Isle HM, among others. Even today's dungeons still somewhat have this such as the curtain boss in Cosmo Canyon. Interact with object or die.

6. Finally removing diminishing returns so everyone in the party has their own diminishing returns instead of it stacking up.
Not sure what you mean here.

To close, dungeons are hackneyed content that the devs have been unable to keep interesting beyond their initial run. As PvE content, I don't want to see them go away, but tears drop from my eyes when the devs spend time on max level dungeons when most players at max level don't want to be inside dungeons. That's where they just spent all their time leveling.

EXP gain is probably the greatest incentive to run dungeons. Once that is no longer needed, even the best designed max level dungeon in the game is not going to get much praise when players run it for the umpteenth time slogging through it for tomes.

If they did something like this and worked out the kinks, then to entice players to repeat these, after the initial new content honeymooon is over, then the rewards better be unique and damn good too.

Perhaps unique crafting recipe drops, bardings and glamours. Certainly not tokens of any kind.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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2. Adding a monster that needs to be killed immediately or will cause a party wipe and this will prevent tanks from pulling way too many mobs and wiping the whole party.
So you mean bosses?

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I assume they mean like the bees in thousand maws that basically kill you with final sting if not dealt with, but party wide?

I'm totally down for having optional hard mode dungeons. I don't even really care about the reward beyond completion / execution of the content. As it stands, most dungeons are wholly unfulfilling spam fests IMO.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

You know, if you really want to play WoW, just go play WoW.

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I don't like WoW.
I don't wanna play WoW.
But Mythic+ dungeons is something I'd like to see FF14 borrow from them.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

You know, if you really want to play WoW, just go play WoW.

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Why is it anytime someone tries recommending new content it's just "Well go play this or that"" or some other snarky comment?

They and others probably don't want to play WoW, they want to play this. They're showing interest in content they'd like to see in the game.

/Hard/ 4 man dungeons would be awesome in mine and probably other's opinions, I like the feel of dungeons, I'd like having to get less people together but still get a challenge. They could keep all dungeons the same difficulty, just add a harder version on top of future ones, if you don't want to do them, don't do them, it doesn't effect you at all. If they don't add it, that's okay too, it's just a recommendation to the devs about possible new content to keep things fresh/diversify things for end game players to do.

1.0 have such things in the dungeon. you had extra boss extra items for gear and such but they were in out of the way areas and most people hate the leg work to get there, so when the revamped to 2.0 such things went away. after all many people explore every room in The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak. that place in 1.0 had like 5 or 6 bosses in it

Most people can't even stand something as simple as walking instead of running near an Eureka's sleeping dragon. I don't think that adding in normal content way more difficult things like "you have to look at what this particular mob is doing and interrupt it otherwise it is a wipe" will be well receveid XD

The game really does need more optional four player content that's actually somewhat challenging.

The later floors of PotD/HoH and the Great Hunt (Extreme) are basically all we have in that regard.

I could stand to see some more harder 4 man content. I also think they should focus their dungeon efforts into having as new leveling dungeons of just level cap dungeons per patch. Y'know give a bit more variety and experiment a bit.

Or maybe have the options to do the 8 man raids as 4 man dungeons with tweaks to the numbers (so that tank swaps aren't needed and that 4 players can meet the enrage), no breaks between the battles, add some trash, etc (course this means that there needs to be a structure closer to Coils or Alex as opposed to that of Eden)

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Originally Posted by Areic

Why is it anytime someone tries recommending new content it's just "Well go play this or that"" or some other snarky comment?

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Difficulty levels are hardly new content. Sometimes a smidgen, and hard dungeons, in this game are somewhat new, with a different story. But mostly difficulty levels are a cheap way to make the players feel like there is more content than there really is.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The game really does need more optional four player content that's actually somewhat challenging.

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Yeah, I agree and think it should be a bit of priority.

I'd also like it to distance itself from the whole treadmill thing for the sake of longevity. As much as I do like EX and Savage, they can get repetitive. Something more dynamic would be a great change of pace. Random dungeon layouts, enemies, bosses, etc. Something that captures the feel of a first run even if you've done it a dozen times.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Difficulty levels are hardly new content. Sometimes a smidgen, and hard dungeons, in this game are somewhat new, with a different story. But mostly difficulty levels are a cheap way to make the players feel like there is more content than there really is.

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From my perspective content should have a certain amount of difficulty and unpredictability in order to be interesting, otherwise it just becomes routine. Most of the game is really low on the difficulty scale, but if that existing content was brought up a couple of notches I think it would legitimately make for a better and longer lasting experience. There is more to it than just difficulty, but like I said, the majority of the game is tuned very low in that aspect.

While I'd be all for more interesting dungeons, I don't know what they'd do to make them worth coming back to repeatedly. People spend a lot of time on ex and savage because those fights are the game's fights at their purest. Dungeons tend to be mindless trash followed by bosses that tend to be simpler than any given trial.

I feel like if they wanted to make dungeons more interesting and worth actually repeating, they'd need to either introduce elements of RNG (maybe have multiple paths that are randomly chosen each run. No point having branching optional paths since after the first run, everyone will just go the most optimal route, that can be seen in ARR) or figure out a way to make the trash pulls more interesting, because they are the reason I generally don't like running dungeons after the first run. Trash pulls are just so dull, just repeat aoe attacks over and over again while avoiding enemy aoes which tends to not be super taxing. I'm sure healers have to work harder depending on the pull, but for DPS and tanks to a lesser extent, it's pretty brainless.

I think they should try experimenting with changing up the formula. Maybe try a dungeon without trash pulls, but instead trials sorta like the second boss in Bardam's Mettle. Maybe have fewer bosses in a dungeon but make the remaining ones more involved. Maybe have some enrages (soft or hard) that aren't a total pushover to beat. They don't need to push average parties to the edge by any means, but the enrage in dying gasp for instance was insultingly generous. Even at launch, you'd usually beat it before the boss even said his last line (largely because the free LB3).

Edit: Oh yeah, rewards would be important, preferrably beyond just weapons and armor and a minion. I know they aren't gonna have a mount every single dungeon, but goodies of some kind would be neat.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

From my perspective content should have a certain amount of difficulty and unpredictability in order to be interesting, otherwise it just becomes routine. Most of the game is really low on the difficulty scale, but if that existing content was brought up a couple of notches I think it would legitimately make for a better and longer lasting experience. There is more to it than just difficulty, but like I said, the majority of the game is tuned very low in that aspect.

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Ok? I'm not sure how that relates to my comment. I'm just saying if you take the same content and make it more or less difficult, it's not new content. I don't care if they exist, it's just not new content. If you enjoy it, great! but it's the same thing Capcom did with Mega Man. :D

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Edit: Oh yeah, rewards would be important, preferrably beyond just weapons and armor and a minion. I know they aren't gonna have a mount every single dungeon, but goodies of some kind would be neat.

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If the armor/weapons are interesting, then that would encourage some longevity (at least untilyou have the pieces you want), but beyond that, have some sellable mats for high tier crafts, and maybe emotes, hairstyles and make up as well.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Something more dynamic would be a great change of pace. Random dungeon layouts, enemies, bosses, etc. Something that captures the feel of a first run even if you've done it a dozen times.

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If the next deep dungeon were more elaborate than the last two I think it would go a long way.
Also, good points about the treadmill for the sake of longevity, and I agree, but this is an MMO so I'm not sure how much more I can expect :/

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

From my perspective content should have a certain amount of difficulty and unpredictability in order to be interesting, otherwise it just becomes routine. Most of the game is really low on the difficulty scale, but if that existing content was brought up a couple of notches I think it would legitimately make for a better and longer lasting experience. There is more to it than just difficulty, but like I said, the majority of the game is tuned very low in that aspect.

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The problem with that is the combat system. Even if they make them use their mechanics in random order, they are still the same mechanics. Even if they add some change to them, at some point it WILL be routine because you already know all its moves. This is true for everything in the game from story instances to raids, you can't really get much difficulty with this. Maybe it would be a little better but it won't be much.

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

The problem with that is the combat system. Even if they make them use their mechanics in random order, they are still the same mechanics. Even if they add some change to them, at some point it WILL be routine because you already know all its moves. This is true for everything in the game from story instances to raids, you can't really get much difficulty with this. Maybe it would be a little better but it won't be much.

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If the list of mechanics that the boss pulls from is long it would take a lot of runs to memorize everything. At some point it would still become routine but I'd welcome any improvement in longevity compared to doing the exact same thing every time. There is also room for variation outside of just changing the order of an otherwise fixed encounter, like what if sometimes the boss is a single spawn with full health while other times it might be two copies of the original boss with half or 75% health? The room its in could change as well, with variations in layout and perhaps things like environmental harzards. It might not make content last forever, but I think it becomes more realistic that it doesn't go stale before the next patch hits.

I really liked the second boss of the Abandoned Factory specifically because the different platforms and wall hazards create considerably more varied interactions then what fights typically offer, while giving a reasonable amount of time to logic out the movement/positioning needed to handle those things on top of whatever mechanics the boss itself is using.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

[b] stuff

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I love how you basically just dismiss everything the OP says without even so much as a counter argument except “2.0 already did it” well here’s the funny thing, a lot of those dungeons got nerfed to the ground because they were too hard and that tells me that player like yourself are the reason for that.

This guy wants a harder 4 man difficulty tier that isn’t queueable via the DF. Thus you don’t need to do it. It’s called end game much like savage.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

I love how you basically just dismiss everything the OP says without even so much as a counter argument except “2.0 already did it” well here’s the funny thing, a lot of those dungeons got nerfed to the ground because they were too hard and that tells me that player like yourself are the reason for that.

This guy wants a harder 4 man difficulty tier that isn’t queueable via the DF. Thus you don’t need to do it. It’s called end game much like savage.

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you did not need to do those hard dungeons either, they were optional end game content.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

well here’s the funny thing, a lot of those dungeons got nerfed to the ground because they were too hard

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lol yeah. I still wipe in those old level 50 (hard) duties.
Since knowing their mechanics is actually important to being able to clear them I rarely have smooth clears since they're old enough that a lot of people have forgotten the mechanics (if they ever knew them to begin with).
Honestly, I think it's kinda fun having to puzzle your way through those old dungeons instead of smashing through with my big iLV.

Honestly for me, I think all SE needs to do is just make dungeons interesting again. I feel like ARR had some of the coolest dungeons. As much as people hate Aurum Vale, the fact that people still talk about it due to people failing mechanics means something. Wander's Palace also had some pretty cool mechanics. Then you have dungeons like Tam Tara (Hard) that has some of the best lore in the game in my opinion.

For me, the thing that would make dungeons good is if they were more than just run this striaght line killing enemies to a boss, repeat. This is fine for leveling dungeons but there should be MUCH more to a max lv dungeon.

Give me a good story. Give me more randomness. (I really liked the idea of having random monster appear in a dungeon.)