Some suggestions for endgame content: please make us whipe

TL;DR: Please add some challenges to endgame PVE where we can fail which do not require extensive knowledge on specific encounters.

I have been playing the game for four months now and I really enjoy it coming from the dark side of MMOs (WOW). The classes are balanced, the roles are clear and fleshed out, the game system itself and the PVE content is fine.

Having hit max level a month ago I feel like there is a little bit of a hole, an unfulfilled promise, unless you are doing savage raids. I miss the chance to fail, ever, not personally but to whipe as a group.
The reason for this (what I feel as) endgame "lul" is that there are challenges I do not have the time to reach (no constant evening time slot for savage raids static etc.) but I still would like to be challenged by the content.

To me PVE is missing some kind of challenge which is less coordination and learning based than savage but still hard and failable. I didn't wipe once in e5-8 non-savage and it doesn't feel like a challenge at all.
Raiding has so many safe-the-day/recovery mechanics it is hard to whipe as a group unless doing savage.

WOW has Mythic plus dungeons and while i hate (!) the gearing system in that game being able to just scale up the difficulty of dungeons is great and challenging. If you cannot fail you cannot succeed.
Drop some glam for people to show off what they achieved and you have 30 minute challenges that are as hard as people like.

Or drop a group of people in a random encounter against adds and a final boss with easy to understand (and obvious) but punishing mechanics so they have to be on their heels to not whipe. Require people to crowdcontrol a specific add or die. Something like higher levels of POTD but in a very condensed, more foreseable and punishing form. Make us struggle.
No need for loot except for glam stuff and maybe a lvl 7-8 gem or two.

PVE content basically revolves around three types of difficulty:
1. Job-mechanics: how well you dps with your class, keep aggro, heal/shield etc.
2. General game-mechanics: run away when you're in aoe indicator, cc adds, run to mate on converging arrows, use lb, react in time etc.
3. Encounter specific knowledge: what do i need to do exactly in this encounter at what time?

Savage tests all three of these difficulties and most of all the last one. It is a complex dance with a very strict choreography. I would very much enjoy more endgame content which mostly focuses on the first two types of difficulties. Allow us to improvise on the fly.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by dialectics

states it's impossible to wipe, despite that being false

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So, how many times have you done all of the normal mode Eden raids and never ever wiped? What job do you play? If it's healer and you're not wiping, then I can understand, but perhaps play something with less control over the battle, like a DPS or even a weaker tank, like DRK. You'll see wipes. Unless you're doing it with a group of friends who are all competent.

Wait for the next normal mode raid. First week, you'll see wipes. You'll see wipes until people outgear it, and can afford to make lots of mistakes. I'm not saying the normal raids are wipefests, but I've been playing this game since 2013, and I have seen many wipes in normal mode raids in every single expansion and ARR.

Also you might try your hand at Extreme primals. They're a step below Savage raids, but a step above normal raids. Pretty easy to learn without a vid. Punishing if you don't obey mechanics until you outgear it by a high margin and/or if you have dual regen healers.

FFXIV doesn't need anymore difficulty settings, and the playerbase already exhibits a silly amount of animosity towards dungeons since Stormblood, so... something like Mythic + probably not gonna happen.

Of course there are some whipes here and there in dungeons if all who can res die but it happens very very seldom and if i run with fg buddies never. No matter which duty, 80's, expert, e5-8 non savage, whatever.
I run as Samurai or Whitemage on 80, did E5 to E8 non-savage each like 4 times plusminus. I died a lot in the beginning but the group never whiped. And that is completely fine.

But: I would embrace the idea of being able to jump into hard content where i actually have to really pay attention and use all abilities but where i do not need to learn a complex choreography and everything depends on it.
Don't get me wrong: Savage is fine and I envy people who have the time to learn the fights properly and raid with a static. But wouldn't it be nice if your pure attention and game knowledge were put to the test? You jump in, no knowledge, and need to adjust while the fight happens. I am not saying others cannot be happy as it is but to me this would be a great thing.
It is not about a different difficulty setting, just another kind of challenge. Extreme primals are fine but hardly much different in the way they work compared to savage. Just easier.

every encounter in this game is very heavily scripted. there is almost nothing that is truly random. you're going to have to play a different game if you don't want to do the dance.

I'm just here because the OP likes Ellen Ripley :3

You can do minimum ilvl raids which the closest you get to "adjusting the difficulty" like WoW

You are right that you can adjust the difficulty by just making it harder for yourself and i might try it or go into a dungeon with 2 ppl only or something like that. But i would prefer for this kind of scaling to be added as "official endgame" with 4 or even less people so that it is more like a goal you can work towards to ingame.
Also it is important to point out i do not want people to whipe in regular dungeons. I want us to be able to choose a content which is really hard and preferably also with 4 and not 8 people.

As a side note, why do you keep spelling wipe as "whipe"?

You have a few options. Extreme trials are a possibility. You can also PUG savage fights. Or you could give PotD and HoH a try. Completing as a group or if you have the will, solo.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

every encounter in this game is very heavily scripted. there is almost nothing that is truly random. you're going to have to play a different game if you don't want to do the dance.

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Unfortunately Dr. here is right.
I have felt the same as OP since I finished leveling in StormBlood.
Guess what changed since then. Nothing.

SE is absolutely stunted when it comes to designing challenging PVE encounters.
Its synchronized dancing + hard enrage timer. EVERY SINGLE TIME

soft enrages?
random order of mechanics?
arena in shape of anything than perfect geometric shape?
boss unpredictably smacking tank with weak/strong autoattacks?

SE universal answer: DOES. NOT. COMPUTE. BEEP

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

Unfortunately Dr. here is right.
I have felt the same as OP since I finished leveling in StormBlood.
Guess what changed since then. Nothing.

SE is absolutely stunted when it comes to designing challenging PVE encounters.
Its synchronized dancing + hard enrage timer. EVERY SINGLE TIME

soft enrages?
random order of mechanics?
arena in shape of anything than perfect geometric shape?
boss unpredictably smacking tank with weak/strong autoattacks?

SE universal answer: DOES. NOT. COMPUTE. BEEP

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Wouldn't be bad to have some soft enrages, and different shaped arenas (though is reasonings for the arenas all being squares/circles. They did more varied arenas with the Coils and players kept finding ways to cheese the fights, especially with Twintania which initially had an uneven field. And it becomes a technical issue too, apparently the raised and lowered platforms in Titan Savage almost was too buggy to make work, blame the spaghetti code for that).

Random order of mechanics to an extent would be too much. XIV's savage raids are pretty complex, which is why they are static. If the order of mechanics was randomized, that might be too much to handle for the average raider since you already have to memorize a fair amount. If you want more randomized raids, there are other mmos that do that, XIV's niche is more complex but static fights.

Not saying that there's nowhere they can improve on though.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Random order of mechanics to an extent would be too much. XIV's savage raids are pretty complex, which is why they are static. If the order of mechanics was randomized, that might be too much to handle for the average raider since you already have to memorize a fair amount.

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If you allow for randomized/chaotic mechanic, you need to lower number of mechanics (you need to let go of memory game being defining aspect).
Instead you challenge player by adapting and quickly reacting. It also means that some runs will be harder or easier than others, depending of what tricks boss pulled on you.
Every encounter does not need to be fixed mathematical formula that is the same everytime for everyone. That is its own kind of lazy.