I'm pretty sure this topic has already been covered before, but I don't frequent the forums very often and I don't feel like searching through years of posts just to find out. That being said, I do appologize if this subject is tired.
I decided to try Red Mage for the first time since unlocking it way back when it was introduced in Stormblood and I got to say I was confused with how the job was meant to be played. I had to have a friend explain the mechanics to me because the tooltips don't. Like at all.
Why doesn't Jolt mention that it reduces the cast time of Veraero and Verthunder? Or that it has a chance to proc Doublecast?
What's the point of even having the melee skills available all the time if they're useless before you charge up your mana?
You might say "well that's what the first job mission is for", but it's been years since I picked this job up so I don't remember anything about it. Regardless the job should be self explanatory. All the other jobs do a good job of explaining conditions for when/how to use each skill and on top of that there's the added bonus that most of the jobs start at level 1 and introduce each skill as they become relevent which allows you to play with them and get a feel for their use.
Not that it helps now, but I think that all the jobs should have started at level 1 so there's an easier time to learn and a better possibility for more competent players in high level dungeons. I know they don't just so people can use them right out of the box, but I think that's detrimental to the overall quality of player usefulness. I certainly wouldn't have been willing to give Red Mage a chance if I didn't have someone right there to explain it to me at that moment. Maybe that's just me?
Seeing Red Again
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06-07-2020, 11:11 AMJovenSeeing Red Again
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06-07-2020, 11:27 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
Honestly, I feel like reading your tooltips would help with this. And looking over the job guide on the lodestone.
Starting at lvl 1 would not have helped you at all after all that time since playing it.
Jolt doesnt say it reduces the cast time of those... because it doesnt? Using any spell that has a cast time grants dualcast. If its instant, you don't get dualcast. The dualcast tooltip tells you how it works. -
06-07-2020, 11:32 AMAcuiasaThis. Both skills and traits have tool tips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
RDM is a pretty easy job to understand the basics of.
If you really feel the need to understand how it works with a few skills, run early ARR dungeons, but the job was designed to be started at 50. -
06-07-2020, 11:42 AMEsmoire
This job starts at a higher level and because of that it should assume competence. If you didn't boost, surely you'd understand by level 50 that jobs unlock actions and traits over time, and to know what those do, you have to read the descriptions. A trivial and minute anount of patience is all that's required to read the actions and traits. If you don't understand them, read them again. Don't understand them, read the website (a guide opens literally the first time your character zones in). IMO there is more than enough information.
Jolt doesn't have a "chance" of proccing Dualcast. If you stopped to read the trait, it tells you how it works in one sentence. If you cast a spell with cast time, it activates dualcast, making your next spell instant cast. That's all you need to know. There's weak spells with short cast time, powerful spells with long cast time. Even a cursory level of deduction would mean you should use the weak spells to proc dualcast, and then consume dualcast to make the stronger spells instant. I can't imagine how this could be made more rudimentary and obvious. -
06-07-2020, 11:53 AMShibiWhat i do, coming back, is look at a list of spell levels for the class at https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/redmage/ and then running lower dungeons (non-roulette) with just a small number loaded on the hotbar. Level 15 dungeon, then load in the 1-15 spells. Get the feel back, then graduate to the next dungeon and add one more spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
You get the feel pretty quickly without forcing the horrible re-grind from 1-whatever. -
06-07-2020, 11:55 AMJoven
I'm more than certain that I've had a few times where casting Jolt didn't proc Dualcast and I don't mean right after casting Verfire/Verstone. Maybe it was a glitch which is what lead me to think it only had a chance to proc.
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06-07-2020, 12:03 PMEsmoireMaybe you are casting it while the Dualcast buff is active. Keep in mind, Dualcasted spells will not recursively grant Dualcast. If you cast Jolt and Dualcast is active, then Dualcast will be consumed to make Jolt instant. It's with any spell cast with cast time; that is if the casting metre thingy shows up. Dualcast and Swiftcast make it instant, thus there is no cast time, thus Dualcast is not granted. It will always grant Dualcast if you use it while Dualcast or Swiftcast is not active (they are actual buffs that show up with your other buffs), though I hear the Dualcast buff is wonky with high latency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
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06-07-2020, 12:13 PMMhaericI have ~50s ping, but when I get a latency/lag spike it won't trigger the Dualcast until after the lag clears but lets me start casting the next spell before the Dualcast takes effect. This leads to starting a hard-cast Veraero or Verthunder which needs fixing by taking a micro-step to cancel it and then casting it again to make use of the Dualcast. If it gets pretty laggy it gets hard to work around. I've never tried it with just general high latency, though. I imagine it might be the same. I have never once had a spell not proc Dualcast if hard cast, however. Just the timing of it taking effect gets wonky sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esmoire
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06-07-2020, 12:14 PMJovenYeah, I watched while banging on a practice dummy that every so often I'll have a full cast time of Jolt that doesn't proc Dualcast. I played with it to make sure. It could be due to latency, though I've never really had any noticable problems with that before on anything else. Probably just not paying much attention to it to notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esmoire
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06-07-2020, 12:20 PMEsmoire
Hmm. Yeah, it could be latency or hiccups making it seem random, then, since I play RDM as a secondary and have not had a time when I didn't know when Dualcast would be active. I run at about 80 ping though my connection is stable, so it would make sense if this is the cause of the issue.
The way the game handles the status frame is a bit problematic and leads to a lot of weird interactions across ticks, like Hollow Ground activating, taking the CD, yet you still got hit with someone it should shield you from,and you die. It's unfortunate but I am not sure if anything can be done with regards to RDM besides improving the underlying code and infrastructure of FFXIV itself. -
06-07-2020, 12:27 PMJovenI want to run a cabled connection for better signal, but my router is on one end of the house and my computer is on the other. I guess I can either settle for compensating with skill or spending the money to upgrade my wifi capabilities. Probably going with the compensation since I'm cheap and broke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esmoire
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06-07-2020, 12:33 PMValkyrie_LennethCould just... move the router :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Joven
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06-07-2020, 12:41 PMJovenI wish. Where it's at is the only room that has cable output. Running new lines would require nothing short of removing the roof because our attic is small and filled with central AC ducts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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06-07-2020, 12:46 PMValkyrie_LennethGrab a 100ft ethernet cable then! like 10 bucks on amazon. Couple cable hooks and run it along the ceiling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
Wifi is terrible. My google home router is literally within 25 feet of my bedroom and my phone disconnects frequently. -
06-07-2020, 12:46 PMAxzeriuth
Playing RDM with a high ping does suck but it's worse when you have the ping spikes because the flow of dualcast is tampered with. If you're able to use a wired connection then do it as spikes will happen over wireless. Look into Internet Over Power connections if you don't want to run a cable from your router to your PC. I've done this and it's a big help.
RDM is a very simple class to learn and master. Use a short casttime spell first then follow with a longer casttime spell all whilst keeping your mana even.
For single target: Jolt-> Verthunder/veraero. If Verfire/Verstone procs use that instead of Jolt.
For AoE: Veraero II/ Verthunder II -> Scatter.
Once you have that pattern down with dualcast you also gain a lot of movability. -
06-07-2020, 12:55 PMAxzeriuthThere is no use for the skills until you get to 80/80 mana. Later on you get Reprise which consumes 5/5 but it's a pretty useless skill and only ever shines if you can't cast a spell but still wanna do damage (like BLM Scorch).Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
The melee combo for single target (Ripose->Azerchhau->Redoublement) there is no point to use it if you don't have 80/80 mana.
Once you hit lvl 52 you unlock Moulinet for an AoE. Get mana to 100/100 Moulinet down to 40/40-> Manafication(lvl60)-> Moulinet til 0/0. -
06-07-2020, 12:56 PMJovenEven then you run the risk of signal drop off without a booster. I don't mean to keep sounding negative because those are good ideas, but with how the house is layed out and my dad being a stickler about poking holes in it makes my options limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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06-07-2020, 12:58 PMValkyrie_Lennethethernet is good to 100m (300ft) before needing a booster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
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06-07-2020, 01:06 PMJovenHmmmmm, 100m might not be long enough, but maybe I could run a coaxial cable half way to the first bedroom and set up the modem and router in there, then run an ethernet to my room. Though all of that would depend on convincing my dad...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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06-07-2020, 01:32 PMspf1200
Did you really not do any research on RDM before blaming the devs for this?
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06-07-2020, 01:39 PMJovenShort answer: yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by spf1200
Though it still doesn't answer why the melee skills are usable before charging mana because they're pointless without it. -
06-07-2020, 09:11 PMTheMightyMollusk
The same reason you can use Souleater without using Hard Slash and Siphon Strike first.
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06-07-2020, 09:23 PMStriderShinryu
Seems like the situation has largely been resolved but one thing I'll add in just in general is that it's actually a pretty decent idea to do a PotD run or two if you're coming back to a class after a long time away. Even for classes that aren't intended to be played "at level 1" they are all built to work at level 1 in PotD. It can act as a nice fairly quick tutorial on how the class builds as it levels without having to actually level it up again and while fighting actual enemies instead of just whacking a training dummy.
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06-07-2020, 09:25 PMJovenHonestly I forget PotD is even a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderShinryu
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06-08-2020, 09:04 PMAldoraI've had cases like this, but it usually was linked to either a "Miss" or lag, where it didn't register the proc in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
To give you an example, when i play DNC i sometimes have the issue (lag related) that when i press either Fan Dance or Fan Dance II, Fan Dance III wouldn't proc immediately. About half a GCD later it would still proc, but by then i pressed the next weaponskill or Fan Dance (I or II), losing the opportunity to use Fan Dance III at that time. Or when you press a step action, the next one in line doesn't proc immediately. Since you can see in which order you should press the step actions, i would still press it, only to find out that the server didn't register it as the next valid step action. Then i have to repeat it in order for it to register correctly.
It is pretty annoying when that happens several times during an encounter. (T_T ) -
06-08-2020, 11:15 PMMetallium
FYI sprint consumes a dualcast proc(I do that alot and forget)
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06-08-2020, 11:50 PMGenzBecause FFXIV has a lot of small design errors and incoherences like these to look interesting. If they removed them, we'd have "less skills" and some players would complain, even if the gameplay would be exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joven
Combo in general are the best example : second and third skills of a combo are useless alone, but we can use them.
(when they added combo in 1.20, there were some case where using the second skill alone had a different effect)
But as Dragoon for example, we can't use Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust outside the combo. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And in PvP, the devs did have the realization to put the combos on 1 skill.
Also all the skills that get automatically replaced when some condition are met, like True Thrust -> Raiden Thrust : we could argue that it needs to be a separate skill and it's down to the player to have the "skill" to use it correctly.
tl;dr : it's just arbitrary. -
06-09-2020, 12:12 AMVirlymlong post pt 1They honestly do explain a lot if you take the time to understand what you're reading. lv 1 trait : Dualcast - "Grants the effect of Dualcast upon casting any spell with a cast time. While under the effect of Dualcast, your next spell will require no time to cast. Effect is canceled upon execution of any action other than an ability. Auto-attacks do not cancel effect." So from this, you understand that when you hard-cast a spell, the next spell is instant. When you look at your spells, you'll see cast times of 2.5s and 5s. This should tell you that you hard-cast a 2.5s spell, proc Dualcast, then insta-cast a 5s-cast spell. And that's 70% of the job's gameplay right there. you then read that your job gauge is just keeping track of 2 mana colors, each spell you cast gives you a certain amount of one or both of those colors, your sword skills drain this colored mana to become empowered. It all flows nicely if you take the time to read.Quote:
I decided to try Red Mage for the first time since unlocking it way back when it was introduced in Stormblood and I got to say I was confused with how the job was meant to be played. I had to have a friend explain the mechanics to me because the tooltips don't. Like at all.
See Dualcast's tooltip.Quote:
Why doesn't Jolt mention that it reduces the cast time of Veraero and Verthunder? Or that it has a chance to proc Doublecast?
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06-09-2020, 12:13 AMVirlymlong post pt 2Melee skills aren't 100% useless before you have 80/80 or more colored mana, they just aren't optimal before then. One of the best things that happened to RDM this expansion was that they got Reprise at lv 76. Before that, you were subjected to your cast times and sub-par mana dumps for long movement. As deceiving as it is, RDM is actually the least mobile of the three casters. Yes, we may have the most time in a given fight where we can move, we can't control when we get it like the other jobs. BLM can force insta-cast procs for skills and save them for a time, they also have triplecast. SMN gets a phase in their rotation that just allows all their GCDs to be instant cast. Both of them can plan to have these high mobility times in their rotation when they need it in a fight. RDM isn't so lucky. We have an insta-cast every other GCD, and we have a melee combo that's dependent on how much colored mana we have. So before reprise, unless you had perfect procs to get your mana just where you needed it, ended a hard-cast spell just when you had to start moving, had swift up for after you used the Dualcast proc, and that ended into you having enough mana to start your melee combo while being in melee range, it was hard for RDM to do long movements (we all hate you Pantokrator). Rather than just running around for 10s not casting anything, it's better to just use the melee combo (without the finisher) just to keep the GCD rolling (a little damage is better than no damage). There's also times when you died, got raised, then had to spend all the mana you had to raise some1 else. In times like these, you could go through the 1-2-3 of the non-enhanced melee combo to allow you to have some mana rather than cast a spell, then sit there waiting for your mana to regen before you can use the Dualcast on another. Again, not optimal, but something is better than nothing.Quote:
What's the point of even having the melee skills available all the time if they're useless before you charge up your mana?
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06-09-2020, 12:13 AMVirlymlong post pt 3Honestly, I HATE playing RDM under level 70. Without access to Verflare and Verholy, it just isn't satisfying to go into the melee combo. It feels like I'm barely gaining any dps than if I just sat and casted the entire time. But like someone previously said, there is always PotD if you really want to start something at level 1.Quote:
Not that it helps now, but I think that all the jobs should have started at level 1 so there's an easier time to learn and a better possibility for more competent players in high level dungeons.
And as to the sometimes your Dualcast didn't proc. Remember that it only procs off a hard-casted spell, not a specific spell. To exemplify this example, the opener has you hard-cast a Verthunder/Veraero and use the Dualcast proc on the other. In normal play, you wouldn't hard-cast one of those 5s spells, but in an opener with a countdown, you have the time so you might as well get the extra potency and colored mana. Also to keep in mind that lag is a thing. The best thing to do is to reduce lag, but if you can't, you learn to play around it (or find another job that isn't affected by lag as much). One tip would be to stutterstep each hard-cast to reduce the lag impact. When a spell has about 0.3s - 0.5s left of it's cast, you start moving. Your character will still continue the cast, but you can get a little movement in and be ready to start casting the moment your GCD comes back up without having to wait for the lag between casts. This is even more helpful for RDM because it gives the server a little longer to register that you have a Dualcast proc. But lag can kill any job, not just RDM, it's just something you either fix, or learn to deal with. For example, I used to raid on AST back in HW and SB. At times, I would lag when I used the Draw ability, the ability would go on CD, but I wouldn't have a card. -
06-09-2020, 04:17 AMMhaeric
You can edit posts to bypass the 10,000 character limit.
I get that you're just talking about how it feels, but it's definitely a very significant dps boost even without the finishing spells and at all levels. Even more so before level 62 when you get the Enhanced Jolt trait that boosts the damage of most of the single target spells. The raw potency numbers seem low, in particular, the first and sometimes second melee skill outputting less raw potency than the spells, but the magic happens due to the 1.5s global cooldown on the enchanted version of the melee attacks. It helps the "feel" of the melee combo to think of it as a massive speed increase rather than a raw damage increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virlym