role skill suggestion

Name: Something with attraction? Gravity Attraction or something.
Cooldown: 10s
Description: make all enemies in a radius of 15y be close to you (don't work if enemy is stationary, suffer some debuff like bind or is full resisted like hunts, boss, lalafells and primal's adds)

Would’ve went with Magnesis which role would get this though?

An AoE draw in effect would be cool indeed, but I feel like it would fit WAR the best so I wouldn't mind it being a WAR exclusive, with how few buttons they manage as well, compared to the other tanks.

Tanks being able to forcibly reposition particularly cheeky caster mobs would be very nice, yes, especially for places like Dzemael Darkhold or Tam-Tara where tanks learn very early on that ranged mobs are the worst damn thing.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

An AoE draw in effect would be cool indeed, but I feel like it would fit WAR the best so I wouldn't mind it being a WAR exclusive, with how few buttons they manage as well, compared to the other tanks.

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If they go for 'draw in' as being part of WAR's theme, then WAR needs to be intrinsically less mobile. Onslaught is the best gap closer at the moment. Maybe replace it with a single target draw in effect?

That being said, I think the limitation with such effects is that forced movement cancels casts, which is why a lot of bosses are programmed to move independently of what your tank is doing. Holmgang used to be able to force cancel uninterruptable abilities before they changed the effect. It's a glitch in their programming.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If they go for 'draw in' as being part of WAR's theme, then WAR needs to be intrinsically less mobile. Onslaught is the best gap closer at the moment. Maybe replace it with a single target draw in effect?

That being said, I think the limitation with such effects is that forced movement cancels casts, which is why a lot of bosses are programmed to move independently of what your tank is doing. Holmgang used to be able to force cancel uninterruptable abilities before they changed the effect. It's a glitch in their programming.

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It doesn't work on full resisted bosses though (it shouldn't), only mobs that can also suffer from stun and slow (according to OP's tooltip).

Onslaught doesn't get used in mob pulls so it by no means competes with that ability. I will say though that a single target pulll on short cooldown would probably be better engagement wise and fits WAR flavor better.

There's a bug where mob movement interrupts activation of abilities and even prevents their use in the first place. You can see this in particular with older (i.e. ARR and Heavensward) encounters. Later (Stormblood and on) encounters get around this by having bosses that just position themselves for the most part.

In the context of Holmgang, the original descriptions contained "binds both caster and target" (2.0) as well as "binds both caster and target and draws target in" (2.1). As an example, when you were doing Leviathan Ex in 2.2, Wavetooth Sagahin was supposed to cast an uninterruptable Dreadwash as a sort of dps check. If you used Holmgang on it and jumped away from it, the draw-in effect forced it to move towards you mid-cast, forcing the ability to be interrupted. This is also likely a bug. For whatever reason, it didn't function like a knockback ability that could be resisted. That's probably why Holmgang was specifically reworked this expansion so that it doesn't have the draw-in effect anymore.

I think that they need to fix that underlying bug to allow draw-in effects.

That aside, draw-in effects are simply a variant on mobility skills. It's like a gap closer, except that you're moving the boss to you rather than yourself to the boss. As an example, Death Knights in Warcraft used draw-in effects as a substitute for not having gap closers. Putting both on the same job is a bit like giving them a second set of gap closers. I think you either design for the relatively immobile powerhouse that pulls enemies towards them, or you go for something speedier that zooms around the battlefield. They're different aesthetics.

It's only usable on mobs and is only going to be used to draw in ranged mobs to each other so AoE can reach them all, it's not a gap closer for boss fights.

If it's situational, people are going to complain that it's a wasted skill slot and ask for buffs. See Stormblood and Shake it off.
If it's useful and job exclusive, people are going to ask for it to be on every tank. See Heavensward and Plunge.

Not to mention the fact that draw-in effects result in mob action cancellation as mentioned above.

There is a work-around in game to get ranged mobs to come group up. It's LOS, and you do it with corners.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's a bug where mob movement interrupts activation of abilities and even prevents their use in the first place. You can see this in particular with older (i.e. ARR and Heavensward) encounters. Later (Stormblood and on) encounters get around this by having bosses that just position themselves for the most part.

In the context of Holmgang, the original descriptions contained "binds both caster and target" (2.0) as well as "binds both caster and target and draws target in" (2.1). As an example, when you were doing Leviathan Ex in 2.2, Wavetooth Sagahin was supposed to cast an uninterruptable Dreadwash as a sort of dps check. If you used Holmgang on it and jumped away from it, the draw-in effect forced it to move towards you mid-cast, forcing the ability to be interrupted. This is also likely a bug. For whatever reason, it didn't function like a knockback ability that could be resisted. That's probably why Holmgang was specifically reworked this expansion so that it doesn't have the draw-in effect anymore.

I think that they need to fix that underlying bug to allow draw-in effects.

That aside, draw-in effects are simply a variant on mobility skills. It's like a gap closer, except that you're moving the boss to you rather than yourself to the boss. As an example, Death Knights in Warcraft used draw-in effects as a substitute for not having gap closers. Putting both on the same job is a bit like giving them a second set of gap closers. I think you either design for the relatively immobile powerhouse that pulls enemies towards them, or you go for something speedier that zooms around the battlefield. They're different aesthetics.

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Got any other Holmgang or Knockback examples? Dreadwash is a cast, the Sahagin has to stop moving, like any other cast, and that's also an add. Just sounds like they forgot to make it or intentionally made it immune/susceptible to Holmgang's chain. There were several bosses in dungeons back then that I know of that were susceptible to Holmgang's bind at the very least. Sunken Temple HM final boss, WP 2nd boss, and I think the Karkablos in Sastasha HM? Idk it's been a long time.

Also do you not PVP? They have minor draw ins in PVP for tanks. The ranged tank skills pull the target closer by like 6y, and I think, though I haven't PVP'd on DRK in a long while, Unleash either binds or draws in? Or did one or the other at some point. They can do draw ins. It would need to be a universal role skill, though it would be cool to see a 5~6 way Holmgang like skill, echoing off of what Ardbert does in the WoD cutscenes back in what was it, 3.3? or 3.4?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If it's situational, people are going to complain that it's a wasted skill slot and ask for buffs. See Stormblood and Shake it off.
If it's useful and job exclusive, people are going to ask for it to be on every tank. See Heavensward and Plunge.

Not to mention the fact that draw-in effects result in mob action cancellation as mentioned above.

There is a work-around in game to get ranged mobs to come group up. It's LOS, and you do it with corners.

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OP stated from the beginning it won't work on full resisted entities (like bosses) so your whole argument about gap closer and such is pointless. If you don't think it's a useful enough ability, that's fine but I think it's a fun one that must feel good to use as tank. I'm sure 90% won't use it but same goes for other Tank abilities (arm's length) so I don't see that as a reason to avoid adding it.

1 semi useless ability really isn't a big deal imo especially for role skills, there are already plenty that almost never get used. Niche abilities are a nice thing to have imo, it feels great when opportunity arises where you can gain value from them. Nobody is forced to slot it.

Don't think anyones going to lose sleep over mob action cancellation, you can already cancel their action by stunning them.

I don't think that anyone would care if you added in more role abilities, irrespective of whether they're useful or not. You could add the Manderville Dance as a tank role-specific action and nobody would bat an eyelid. You were the one pushing for this to be WAR specific, and we all know how that turns out.

I like draw-in effects as an alternative to gap closers, but this game is built on very shaky foundations. Until the devs get around to fixing the underlying exploit potential around raid boss cast cancellation, you won't see this in game. Which is a shame, because that's also probably the number one factor that's crippling tank mechanics in fights. I'm baffled that there are 14+ year old MMOs that have figured out how to have mobs use actions while moving, and this game's programming still seems stuck on the basics.