Toxicity, Kindness, Abuse and the Exploitation of Kindness

This is not a rant, but a discussion. Please share with me your thoughts.

After a semi-argument with an FC mate, I felt the need for a bit of self-reflection.

...and what better judges of morality exist than strangers on the internet, amiright?

Heres a story of one of my many encounters in ff14.



Summoner in Ivalice:

The story begins back in Stormblood, Orbornne monastery, 3rd raid of Ivalice series. Back when the content was still relevant, the instance was known to be heal intensive, with a very demanding 3rd boss. I was playing summoner.

A few minutes into the first boss fight, I noticed group B got wiped. I immediately made a call for help in alliance chat and ran over to rez one of group B's healers. 2 minutes later, group B wiped again. I tossed another rez to one of the healers and started keeping an eye on the group. Less than a minute later, the whm in group B died again, and again, and again. I was spamming quickcast + rez practically on cd. The fight was painful and drawn out due to the constant deaths in group B.

We moved onto the second boss fight, and the same thing kept happening. I continued to rez the whm over and over and we wiped several times. Until finally, by some miracle, we managed to scrape by.

But next on the list was the infamous TG Cid. I could already tell the fight was going to be bad. We just started the fight and group B got wiped almost instantly. I ran over as quickly as I could to help rez, but it wasn't good enough. The mechanics kept coming and the people we rezzed would die as soon as they stood back up. And if we left group B on the floor, the mechanics they were suppose to deal with would get sent to the other two groups, guaranteeing a wipe.

After wiping 3 times, I asked group B to kick the whm. I haven't said anything directly to group B or the whm till this point. The whm started chewing my head off, claiming shes not feeling well. I responded by telling her I rezzed her twice (in the last pull), but avoided mentioning the other 16 times I had rezzed her in previous fights. The whm rage quit and everyone in the raid now hated my guts. The replacement healer came in a few minutes later, and we cleared the rest of the raid with no issues.

EDIT:
The story happened back when Orbornne was still relevant content and people came in with secondary/tertiary classes hoping to get better gear. There are some mechanics where you HAVE to have 2 healers. Even if you somehow managed to scrape by with 1 healer, you won't have enough mp or any of your big CDs ready for the next mechanic. Especially since you'd barely have any mp in the first place from solo healing. TG Cid's 2nd phase also requires everyone to be up. We managed to get all of group B up in time on one of the pulls but since they were all tagged with the rez debuff, our efforts were ultimately in vain.

My thoughts:
- If the whm was not feeling well, why did she queue up for a high end instance with such a demanding boss? Was she expecting a carry through TG Cid with a party that had only 1 healer?
- If the whm had gone in as dps, none of this would have happened. She could have leeched off the rest of the raid and no one would have noticed. Why did she choose such an important role?
- I chose to become a villain to do what I felt was necessary. What would you have done in this situation? How would you have acted differently?

Takes more than just one bad white mage to cause group wipes that fast, even in Orbonne. My guess is you ran into a clueless group queue and accidentally drew more fire than intended by calling them out.

Also, honestly, there's a disproportionate amount of middling-to-bad healers that simply cannot (and don't want to) play any other roles, and are very, very defensive about their performance. Healing in FF14 has a profoundly low skill floor that people can skate by on, and the nature of healing in a holy trinity MMO lends them a greater level of plausible deniability as to whose fault a wipe was. When tanks and to some extent DPS are grossly underperforming, the feedback is usually much more immediate and much more likely to block their progress.

My thoughts:
- If the whm was not feeling well, why did she queue up for a high end instance with such a demanding bosses? Was she expecting a carry through TG Cid with a party that had only 1 healer?
- If the whm had gone in as dps, none of this would have happened. She could have leeched off the rest of raid and no one would have noticed. Why did she choose such an important role?
- I chose to become a villain to do what I felt was necessary. What would you have done in this situation? How would you have acted differently?[/QUOTE]

You should of kick sooner and people are wrong to harp on you for it. This is a classic example of someone thinking there feeling sick doesn't affect other peoples time a true ex of entitled brat syndrome imo. There is no reason you should be rezzing 16 times or more for anyone-insane. More power to you for your patience but from what you described is accurate, I would've kicked group b entirely if that were possible.

You don't queue for instances if you're unwell to the point of being incapable of playing a key role. A few deaths or even a few wipes due to honest mistakes is absolutely fine, but 16 deaths is going a bit far.

If no part of your story is fabricated or false, then you weren't in the wrong.

Emotional manipulation is sadly quite common in this game.

I feel for you OP, must be a terribly frustrating experience. Absolutely despise the cheap virtue signaling that players in this game may engage in when such situation arises. Rationality gets thrown out of the window as soon as there's a (however small) opening for virtue signaling. People with ego issues seem to be prevalent in this game.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Emotional manipulation is sadly quite common in this game.

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As are the vitriolic responses when it's called out/questioned. People seem to think putting on emotive displays should just disable the respondents' critical thinking skills... and then they get mad when it doesn't have that effect.

It takes more than 1 bad healer or ill healer or new healer etc. To ruin an Orbonne run. Hard to say what the case was with the one healer, I don't always mark a healer's performance based on how smoothly the run is going, but how they have a grip on things. If the group is really pushing it, then healers will struggle, great healers can make bad runs feel smooth because they are carrying people's mistakes, but a healer that can't isn't necessarily the weakest link but can be the first people will point fingers at.

So it is hard to cast a shadow at the healer you had when we don't know what that healer was up against.

That Instance has 2 healers per group, how is it the fault of 1 Healer? Anyways I do agree healers are very important roles and you have to bring your A game in all Raids you never know when the party will wipe. Sometimes even carrying other groups.

You cannot snooze yourself through a instance especially this high end like Ivalice. If aTank or DPS dies it’s a no big deal if a Healer dies your party loses its healing and they call can die. You weren’t in the wrong if the story told is 100% correct

Nobody else saw or understood your struggle; all they saw was one person calling out another person, making them disband, and "slowing down" their completion time.

You should weigh the value of their inputs appropriately.

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- If the whm had gone in as dps, none of this would have happened. She could have leeched off the rest of raid and no one would have noticed. Why did she choose such an important role?

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Not everyone has alternate roles leveled.

Yeah, have to agree, if your story is as you say - asking them to kick the bad healer is fine after said healer has demonstrated such poor performance that it is impacting the raid.

People are always so afraid of using vote kick, but it's there for a reason. Every player needs to understand that if they suck so bad it stops progress in a dungeon, they can be kicked and it is their fault. If you cant be bothered to learn the game and try to play it to an ok manner (which is incredibly easy for FFXIV due to the low skill floor), then dont get shocked and b.hurt that you get called out and/or kicked.

Someone sucking at the game and preventing other people from enjoying the content isnt acceptable. People need to really switch the way they think: It's better to be the carry, than get carried.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

That Instance has 2 healers per group, how is it the fault of 1 Healer?

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As a main-healer, I guess I can answer that.
->If my co-healer in a full group happens to die a lot, there's only so much I can do alone for keeping the group alive. When my MP are healthy and tank / damage-dealers don't eat every AOE, I can solo-heal a lot until things become troublesome -- BUT if people aren't capable to avoid orange pools, it's essential to have a partner who works together with me for keeping everyone alive.

There might be more to this story because we're only getting one side here, but just based on what the OP said, I give him credit for keeping an eye on Group B and being Johnny on the spot with all those rezzes even though he was on a DPS job, assuming what he said was true.

But I also think calling for someone to be kicked rather than asking them what's going on first is going to rub everyone the wrong way, even if you're in the right. And I can't really blame them. Whenever I'm in a group or raid and someone is underperforming, especially if they are a tank or healer, I always ask them euphemistically, "Tank, everything okay?" Which is a very nice way of saying "WTF are you doing?" I'm quick to that if I'm the healer.

In the OP's situation, something just seems off. There are two healers in every group, so not sure how one healer can wipe the group instantly like that.

This was back when Orbornne was still relevant content. There are some mechanics where you HAVE to have 2 healers. Take TG Cid’s doom for example. You mighy barely be able to get everyone back to 100% with only 1 healer, but you won't have enough mana for the next mechanic. Especially if you barely have any mp in the first place from solo healing.

I suppose I should have communicated more. But that in itself may be seen as being "toxic", no?
Something like "Tank, everything okay?" is usually followed with "U mad bro?" after all.

Your best bet when doing anything in this game is to take things as they come and move on. Sometimes you get unlucky and get all the knuckleheads in one duty, and it's your choice to stick it out or leave. No matter what you choose, just don't dwell on it. It's a pretty good chance that your next run will be better and staying upset at people you likely won't see again just hurts yourself.

Should have called them out sooner and removed them a lot sooner. Idc if you do not feel well, someone died in your family, pool is on fire, power is going out etc . . . (Have heard each of these one time or another) if you queue for something knowing full well that you will not be able to perform then in my eyes you are scum as my old man would say.

Shit happens, but do not force a group to deal with it, leave without having the group to try a carry your dead weight through the content cause you might be having a bad day.

For the love of The Twelve, learn to write in paragraphs. Storytelling doesn't work well in bullet points.

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Originally Posted by Shuuchi

- If the whm had gone in as dps, none of this would have happened. She could have leeched off the rest of raid and no one would have noticed. Why did she choose such an important role?

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I can attest to this being true...though my party was the one with a DRG who had 100% broken gear, and nothing to replace it. He tried his best, and we - being a premade group of 7 - decided what the hell, lets keep him in so he can learn it(his first run after all). It was actually kind of fun trying to keep him alive(I was PLD at the time).

But a healer is definitely something, especially in those early days of the raid, not something you want to go in there with half assed.

You should have never bothered to raise somebody who keeps dying over and over and over. Complete waste of MP, not worth it. If players are holding back a whole raid, they need to be kicked. I don't care if they aren't feeling well. Get them out of there.

Your biggest issue was in calling out someone who wasn't in your alliance.... I'm also not insisting you were wrong or right in the matter but that's where the main issue "started" for you (well other than wiping a gazillion times).

When you call out someone in your own group and ask them to be kicked, the entire group can easily see the bad egg, eggs. When you call out someone specifically from another alliance only the people who were paying attention to whole shebang will know where you're coming from (I also know several people who do alliance raids on jobs that can't rez and therefore do not use the alliance bars at all.. people like that wouldnt be able to piece it together). As for why that group wasn't "fixing" things on there end without insistence, well there could have been dialogue going on in that group (maybe she mentioned she was new or not feeling well at the start) and they were "okay" with the situation for the most part.. again not saying it's right because that raid really did need all hands on deck during it's expansion (still need several hands just can get by without all hands) but that could have been why they didn't take care of it.

I don't think you would have finished that raid as it was without the changing of the guard there hypothetically could have been a "better way" to handle trying to get it done... we each take that risk when we run content, do we want to call it quits and take the penalty or risk coming off being the bad guy/being accused of being in the wrong... that's just the way it goes sometimes.

Must have been some convo with the FC mate since this was a while back though.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

For the love of The Twelve, learn to write in paragraphs. Storytelling doesn't work well in bullet points.

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I'll keep that in mind the next time I use the forums.

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Originally Posted by Wiccan026

Must have been some convo with the FC mate since this was a while back though.

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Heh, thanks for reading through the whole thing.
The story came back to me when we were having a discussion on the FF14 community, thus the "exploitation of kindness" in the title.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

For the love of The Twelve, learn to write in paragraphs. Storytelling doesn't work well in bullet points.

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'Bravo', now it's what some of you English-natives might call "walls of texts", thus people are less likely to read it.
->The resumee was just fine the way it was; namely what we Germans call "übersichtlich". (Also, "storytelling"? This isn't a light-novel, for the love of The Twelve!)

You handled it well. Just like Kratos tells us, “do not be sorry be better.”

I've been on the other side of that coin last night. My FC decided to do a Copied Factory run for someone that didn't do it yet, and I in my infinite "wisdom" decided to go as AST in an instance where I die often as a DPS class (long story but it basically boiled down to think we wouden't get a second healer otherwise).

Was surprisingly chill compared to your experience OP, though that might be because it was my co healer (also from my FC) that wound up rezzing me multiple times (and she seemed to reveled in the chaoticness of it all, even got to use Healer LB3 in at least 3 of the fights.) I only got rezzed by another alliance a couple times as a result and as such few people if any noticed until I apologized in alliance chat. There were no total party wipes, but the experience had me agreeing that one should never queue for an important role for Alliance raids if they are prone to dying.

(as for why I didn't quit chalk that up the sunk cost fallacy, though karma might had ensured I walked out relatively empty handed)

Just reading this alone, I think the answer is you probably could have handled it a little more tactfully. If, as you said, your first real contact with team B (“kick the whm” in boss 3), should have been right around boss 1, maybe immediately after. Rather than kick, it could have been “hey Whm, are you ok? New to raid? Made a mistake in your roulette and got something harder than you were planning for?” Etc.

Point being, discussing it out would let other players in B to be more aware/careful and/or healers in A/C to keep an eye out/pitch in when able.

Even with that, there is no telling how the whm would react. Some players are genuinely awkward at their roles, others rather delicate snowflakes.


Semi Off topic:
Reminds of of waaay back in 2.0 I was main tank in Labyrinth if the Ancients when a whm kept regen-ing me before pulling...After being told to wait about 3 seconds before regen...she didn’t, so she face tanked behemoth for a few seconds and howled the whole time. This was a time where the tank had to get in a few hits to establish aggro. Her response was simply “well this never happens to ME!” To which most of the raid said “well now it HAS”

Note this was maybe week...2 or 3 of the raid being new. Also was the first large raid ever in the game with iLVLs being somewhat low at the time.

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Originally Posted by MelodyCrystel

'Bravo', now it's what some of you English-natives might call "walls of texts", thus people are less likely to read it.
->The resumee was just fine the way it was; namely what we Germans call "übersichtlich". (Also, "storytelling"? This isn't a light-novel, for the love of The Twelve!)

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A wall of text would be unformatted.
This is properly paragraphed and easy to read, at least in English.

And while it's not a novel, it's was still the intention to a the tale.

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Originally Posted by Shuuchi

This was back when Orbornne was still relevant content. There are some mechanics where you HAVE to have 2 healers. Take TG Cid’s doom for example. You mighy barely be able to get everyone back to 100% with only 1 healer, but you won't have enough mana for the next mechanic. Especially if you barely have any mp in the first place from solo healing.

I suppose I should have communicated more. But that in itself may be seen as being "toxic", no?
Something like "Tank, everything okay?" is usually followed with "U mad bro?" after all.

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Trying to solo heal that Doom Mechanic on Cid is not fun when your co-healer wont heal. As a AST in Dur sect I can save everyone but 1 or 2 people if I am on the ball, in Noct sect though at least 3 or 4 people are going to die.

A bit late to the topic, but as someone said, it takes more than one healer to wipe a raid.
There are 2 healers, in fact. Unless you saw such WHM intentionally wipe their group.
Either way, you shouldn't have called them out, they weren't on your alliance, you had no idea what was happening on their chat, the party is made of 8 people not 1, you didn't know if they were new and didn't know mechs, etc.
However it doesn't matter much in the end. You made their day even more miserable, but you probably will never see them again.