How to classify each Job.

So someone posted a thread about an adjustment to Dancer, and when I offered my thoughts it got me thinking, how would you classify each job? For example SMN would be DoT based as it rely on its DoTs for a good portion of its damage. But what would the others be classified as? And what should those classifications be?

Here are some that I think fit.
Combo Based: is mostly reliant on their combo system to produce damage.
Proc Based: relays on getting procs to get bursts of damage
DoT Based: uses DoTs for a large portion/basis of their damage
Priority Based: the job has many features but there is a clear order of operations to maximize output.

Those are all I can think of for now, but I am sure the MMO veterans can elaborate on others. Just so people are aware, I am not saying that these classifications don't overlap any, it's just the main focus of the job. For instance BRD is DoT based, but does have a proc system with the recent change to Straight Shit/Refulgant Arrow. Anyways here are my thoughts.

All Tanks: Combo Based, they use their combos mostly to maintain enmity
All Healers: Priority Based, being a healer healing takes priority, makes sense, right?
SMN and BRD: DoT Based
RDM and DNC: Proc Based
BLM, MCH, and MNK: Priority Based
NIN, DRG, and SAM: Combo Based

Idk about classifying a class as 'DoT based'. Not sure how it is with Bard, but Summoner just has 2 dots that are kept up at all times (and spread in case of aoe).
Thats 2 skills (+1 that applies both). Seems like a very small part of the kit to be saying the whole class revolves around dots.

They're the jobs more notorious for their DoTs but I'd say SMN and BRD are still priority based. They both have procs but as far as I'm aware their 'rotation' consists on using something as soon as it's off cd.

Well surprisingly Summoner still is a DoT based Job even though its got a LOT more Direct Damage attacks these days once you pass level 60.

One of them is a DoT you don't even think is a DoT but actually is... the Egi.

The Majority of a Summoner's damage even today is the Egi + DoTs. The rest of the Summoner's damage is all stacked on top of this. So... if you just keep those two things running all the time, it will be the lion's share. As its the basis upon which all other Damage is stacked.

I'd say BRD is Proc Based...with Refulgent Arrow/Straight Shot, Pitch Perfect, Bloodletter/Rain of Death cooldown reset procs, etc.

BRD is also proc-based. DoT management is a part of the job, but it’s very heavy on RNG procs from those DoTs. You can also put it down as a priority-based system, because it does have a certain priority one follows with regards to its “rotation”.

SMN I’d classify as “pet” based, in that you have to manage Egi Assaults, and the Summon Bahamut/Phoenix; but you could likely also argue it as “priority” based in a loose sense—since you have those “phases” you go through in a specific order.

The question is, is a class classified by what does the most damage in their kit?
Or by the style of gameplay that playing it involves?

Again, speaking from a summoner's perspective.
I spend maybe 1 second every 30 or so seconds having a short thought to keep up the dots (at most).
Most of the time I'm busy with which of the many OGCD skills I have to press next, which bahamut/phoenix phase is up or up next, which ruin to use etc.

Well I can tell you now those letting DoTs drop is a HUGE loss, and I'm not someone to break a sweat over just some tiny or piddly little 1% damage here...

But keep in mind.... my Bio and Miasma in conjunction are doing between 6,000-7,000 damage per tick at 80th and a iLvl 470... my Ifrit is doing 4200-4600 per swing.

That's a good 10,000 damage ticking underneath everything.
While an Ahk Morn may be around 30,000... those DoTs dropping make your Ahk Morn go from doing 37,000 damage to doing 30,000 damage. They are just that significant. Its wayyyy more than some piddly little 1% some of these Savage players argue over.

Not to mention DoT + Egi for 10,000 damage per tick.... running underneath your Ruin 3s.

That is why SMN is so hard to play... its all about stacking and maintaining that damage throughout. While dodging mechanics and managing all those timers to keep that persistent Damage always going. .

Keep in mind here... for perspective.... BLMs are popping off 40,000+ damage Fire 4's under Enochian and I've seen them do a good 70,000 with Xenoglosssy. And they will just sit there and roll off Fire 4s one after another after another.

SMN is not going to compete with that without stacking their entire load and maintaining it.

Ninja has one combo with 2 different finisher indeed. But it's more a priority job than a pure combo job like drg.
You have to setup your suiton into trick attack and everything surrounding your burst windows which is not on your main combo.
Using your mudra frequently and refreshing your huton.

Sam is what we could also call "combo based" indeed, but it uses it to both refresh its buff and open its sen.

It's think jobs can't be classified this way.

Same for dancer.
Its both about proc and prority.
Dances, gcd proc, forced oGCG proc, feather, saber dance
Usage depend on your gauge, the buff aligment, if you're overcapping...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Ninja has one combo with 2 different finisher indeed. But it's more a priority job than a pure combo job like drg.
You have to setup your suiton into trick attack and everything surrounding your burst windows which is not on your main combo.
Using your mudra frequently and refreshing your huton.

Sam is what we could also call "combo based" indeed, but it uses it to both refresh its buff and open its sen.

It's think jobs can't be classified this way.

Same for dancer.
Its both about proc and prority.
Dances, gcd proc, forced oGCG proc, feather, saber dance
Usage depend on your gauge, the buff aligment, if you're overcapping...

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See that's interesting about Ninja. Prior to 5.1, I might of said Ninja was a Priority based job, but with Mudras being placed on the GCD, and being a type of combo, that's how I choose to classify them.

As for the way to classify them, that's really up to personal interpretation. For me it wasn't so much what produces the most damage, but what seems to form the basis of the jobs gameplay/what features stand out the most. That's why I said DoTs for BRD and SMN, even though at later levels they get more proc or priority skills. But those are just my thoughts. I am also aware that most jobs have a nice mix, so that they are not just 1 trick ponies.

Also I completely forgot to make a Pet classification. Though to be honest I feel at this point that is more of a sub class, given how we really only have "one" Pet class, since SCH and SMN are really just two sides of the same class.

Pets aren't really a thing anymore.
Eos/Selene automatically cast Embrace upon being summoned and her oGCD are triggered by the owner (scholar itself).
As for summoner, assault are on the GCD.
So yes, technically, those are pets, but from a gameplay perspective, we went to the "combine pet with owner" route so...

At this point SMN is barely DoT-focused. It's more of an instant cast/oGCD-centric job that plays by a priority system. The DoTs are just a part of it. If anything, Bard has more DoT-focused mechanics but other than that, both of them don't focus on DoTs enough to even label the two as DoT-based.

How to Classify each Job?

PLD/WAR/DRK/GNB = Blue DPS
WHM/SCH/AST = Green DPS
MNK/DRG/NIN/SAM/BRD/MCH/DNC/BLM/SMN/RDM = Red DPS
BLU = Joke Job

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well I can tell you now those letting DoTs drop is a HUGE loss, and I'm not someone to break a sweat over just some tiny or piddly little 1% damage here...

But keep in mind.... my Bio and Miasma in conjunction are doing between 6,000-7,000 damage per tick at 80th and a iLvl 470... my Ifrit is doing 4200-4600 per swing.

That's a good 10,000 damage ticking underneath everything.
While an Ahk Morn may be around 30,000... those DoTs dropping make your Ahk Morn go from doing 37,000 damage to doing 30,000 damage. They are just that significant. Its wayyyy more than some piddly little 1% some of these Savage players argue over.

Not to mention DoT + Egi for 10,000 damage per tick.... running underneath your Ruin 3s.

That is why SMN is so hard to play... its all about stacking and maintaining that damage throughout. While dodging mechanics and managing all those timers to keep that persistent Damage always going. .

Keep in mind here... for perspective.... BLMs are popping off 40,000+ damage Fire 4's under Enochian and I've seen them do a good 70,000 with Xenoglosssy. And they will just sit there and roll off Fire 4s one after another after another.

SMN is not going to compete with that without stacking their entire load and maintaining it.

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Hey, not sure you quite know how an ellipsis (...) works in sentence structure. An ellipsis is used broadly to shorten a quote or to portray a large pause in a sentence usually due to hesitation. For example where you say "keep in mind here...for perspective..." you would actually want to use a comma to denote a short pause: "Keep in mind here, for perspective, blm". Best way to think of it is if its a long pause or shortening of a quote, use ... if it is just a quick snatch or to identify a sub clause in a sentence (like your for perspective bit) use a comma.

Sorry to derail its just a personal dislike of mine seeing ellipsis misused as with how I read it grinds the sentence to a halt

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

At this point SMN is barely DoT-focused. It's more of an instant cast/oGCD-centric job that plays by a priority system. The DoTs are just a part of it. If anything, Bard has more DoT-focused mechanics but other than that, both of them don't focus on DoTs enough to even label the two as DoT-based.

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SMN has one proc, Ruin IV. And it's tied to egi assaults that cause damage. A lot of SMNs ogcd madness was also reduced in the 5.1.

If anything, I would say SMN is a priority based job, but the same can be said about ALL jobs. The question then becomes what defines their priorities. SMN's DoT upkeep is without question their number one priority. This is why they also have an ogcd that applies both simultaneously, and ogcd ability that allows them to spread it to other targets, and an ability wherein its potency is increased based on both Bio and Miasma effects being active. There is also the Egi's auto attacks, which is also a DoT.

If someone was coming into FFXIV asking which job focuses heavily on DoTs, because they like those kind of jobs; I'd point them right in the direction of SMN.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Pets aren't really a thing anymore.
Eos/Selene automatically cast Embrace upon being summoned and her oGCD are triggered by the owner (scholar itself).
As for summoner, assault are on the GCD.
So yes, technically, those are pets, but from a gameplay perspective, we went to the "combine pet with owner" route so...

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Also untrue. Pet AI is wonky at best, and we already know from previous expansions/patches why we would not leave pets on Sic, and always had them on Obey. There is nothing wrong with the summoner commanding the summon. SMN in particular now has two Demis, and getting these guys to come out is a pretty big part of their kit and their appeal. As for the Egis and Lily, they still have to be managed. If anything, I would just say that it is tougher to do so in 5.x because their abilities have all been taken off of the pet hotbar, but it still has to be done.

This thread has made me think of other ways jobs can be classified, but I don't play all of them so I'm shooting in the dark a bit here.

Mitigator - Job spends a good portion of time reducing damage to the party and themselves
Positional - Job has three or more skills that require rear or flank positions in order to optimize
Support - Job prioritizes based on current situation
Brute - Job brings damage. nothing else.
Pet - A modest portion of the job's kit belongs to the familiar they summon.

Also of note* There is no reason why a single job cannot go into multiple categories. Trying to assign a single category to FFXIV jobs is like trying to sort sporks.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

SMN has one proc, Ruin IV. And it's tied to egi assaults that cause damage. A lot of SMNs ogcd madness was also reduced in the 5.1.

If anything, I would say SMN is a priority based job, but the same can be said about ALL jobs. The question then becomes what defines their priorities. SMN's DoT upkeep is without question their number one priority. This is why they also have an ogcd that applies both simultaneously, and ogcd ability that allows them to spread it to other targets, and an ability wherein its potency is increased based on both Bio and Miasma effects being active. There is also the Egi's auto attacks, which is also a DoT.

If someone was coming into FFXIV asking which job focuses heavily on DoTs, because they like those kind of jobs; I'd point them right in the direction of SMN.

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Technically yes, all jobs are priority-based but the difference is that there's a certain linearity the job design offers, like combos, and others that don't, which are where SMN and Bard fall under.

I think managing Trances and summons is the number one priority out of anything else, it's what you do most of the time, and that the reliance on DoTs have been decreased so much through updates. hence I think it's lesser of a DoT-based job than it used to be.

In theory yes, Pets are DoTs but you don't exactly manage their auto-attacks, but their Egi Assaults. I wouldn't count it personally, but it's worth noting.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Technically yes, all jobs are priority-based but the difference is that there's a certain linearity the job design offers, like combos, and others that don't, which are where SMN and Bard fall under.

I think managing Trances and summons is the number one priority out of anything else, it's what you do most of the time, and that the reliance on DoTs have been decreased so much through updates. hence I think it's lesser of a DoT-based job than it used to be.

In theory yes, Pets are DoTs but you don't exactly manage their auto-attacks, but their Egi Assaults. I wouldn't count it personally, but it's worth noting.

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Combos are just another type of priority based system. I thought about subbing it into a category of its own like I did with the others, but optimal rotations is what everyone does/should strive for regardless if their job mechanics are based on combos, procs, situational abilities, etc. The reason I gave Positionals their own category goes back to my OP. I don't play all the jobs, and two of the heavier positional jobs which I believe are MNK and DRG are two of those. They probably need to be lumped along with priorities like with combos.

I don't want to downplay trances. They are vastly important in the SMN kit, but I stand by my earlier comments about the DoTs. Reliance on DoTs has not decreased through updates. Potencies have been adjusted in order to accommodate updates. It is still super important to keep these up as their total potency is usually super efficient for the mana and GCD cost. If they are not made to be this way, then there is no point using them. Demis cost a s-ton of GCDs in order to optimize their duration. When they are out they become your top priority for sure. Neither are out full time, and both have CDs. However, the demi summons give the SMN something to focus on while their DoTs are active. The way these two kits work together is actually quite well designed imo.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Combos are just another type of priority based system. I thought about subbing it into a category of its own like I did with the others, but optimal rotations is what everyone does/should strive for regardless if their job mechanics are based on combos, procs, situational abilities, etc. The reason I gave Positionals their own category goes back to my OP. I don't play all the jobs, and two of the heavier positional jobs which I believe are MNK and DRG are two of those. They probably need to be lumped along with priorities like with combos.

I don't want to downplay trances. They are vastly important in the SMN kit, but I stand by my earlier comments about the DoTs. Reliance on DoTs has not decreased through updates. Potencies have been adjusted in order to accommodate updates. It is still super important to keep these up as their total potency is usually super efficient for the mana and GCD cost. If they are not made to be this way, then there is no point using them. Demis cost a s-ton of GCDs in order to optimize their duration. When they are out they become your top priority for sure. Neither are out full time, and both have CDs. However, the demi summons give the SMN something to focus on while their DoTs are active. The way these two kits work together is actually quite well designed imo.

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Combos being another type of priority based system is basically what I said. Let me rephrase, SMN in particular has a playstyle where the system isn't exactly guiding you to do what's next, which means there's no buttons lighting up for combos and there's not a set-in-stone way to do things like you would if a job is combo-based. Instead, you go through a series of stand-alone abilites that you should prioritize and match with other abilites for the best results. That's the general idea of a "priority-based" system. It can be called something else but right now that's what it is universally. It could be identified as situational in gameplay but it depends on what people mean by that.

And I'm very sure reliance on DoTs have been decreased. Remember the days of Contagion extending DoTs, Miasma II, Shadowflare and the short-lived days of Fester-Ruin? There's also Fester being adjusted to a point it's less detrimental if you used it wrong, and they've been gradually nerfing the two DoTs. SMN was so DoT-centric back in 2.0 until 4.0, but nowadays the DoTs feel more like an afterthought. Obviously it's still important to keep DoTs up at all times, SMN is about multi-management and DoTs are a part of it, but now it's only a small portion of what the job does, that's why I wouldn't call it a DoT-based job anymore. Also by summons I'm also including Egi summons, and those Egi Assaults come up frequently, so I think managing your summons is what now makes most of SMN's gameplay at this point, and that's how it should've been from the start.

They haven't man,

DoTs are still a large part of the damage you do. They just aren't the ONLY thing you do anymore.

Previously you'd be stacking an absolute crapton of them. Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, and one other one I can't remember right now and they all stacked. They combined them and nerfed.. errrm "reworked" them to include now ONLY Bio and Miasma the rest including Contagion is gone. BUT... they are still a shockingly large part of your DPS just as Gemina is saying.

I'm not lying to you when I tell you my Pet + DoTs account for about 10K damage running under my Ruin 3 casts which are doing around 12k. That's half my normal damage when there is no trance running. Fester is around 20k, which STILL has the 10k of DoT + Pet running underneath it. (iLvL 470)

They are STILL that huge of a chunk of your damage.

Whenever I used to do job concepts, I would always classify jobs by role (tank/melee/ranged/caster/heal), but also whether it was an assault-type job (focused more on damage and whatever its main role was) or support-type (provided more group utility effects). For example, Warrior would've been an assault-type tank because all it really had at the time was tanking ability and damage, while a job like Ninja would've been a support-type melee because it came with Trick Attack and the pair of enmity tools. Ultimately, it all boiled down to what a job brought to the table that wasn't damage.

Nowadays, I think of the assault/support factor as a scale from one to five, with one being more on the support side and five being more focused toward damage (and whatever its assigned primary role is). Again, it just boils down to what a job provides that isn't just damage. It might seem more absurd to tryhards with their eyes glued to their parses, but there is still a benefit to having a clutch Verraise or that one good damage buff that makes those numbers better.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

They haven't man,

DoTs are still a large part of the damage you do. They just aren't the ONLY thing you do anymore.

Previously you'd be stacking an absolute crapton of them. Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, and one other one I can't remember right now and they all stacked. They combined them and nerfed.. errrm "reworked" them to include now ONLY Bio and Miasma the rest including Contagion is gone. BUT... they are still a shockingly large part of your DPS just as Gemina is saying.

I'm not lying to you when I tell you my Pet + DoTs account for about 10K damage running under my Ruin 3 casts which are doing around 12k. That's half my normal damage when there is no trance running. Fester is around 20k, which STILL has the 10k of DoT + Pet running underneath it. (iLvL 470)

They are STILL that huge of a chunk of your damage.

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I wasn't even talking about the damage. I'm saying the job isn't doing much DoT management like it used to. I think you're misunderstanding what I am trying to say here.