(5.2 Spoilers)Question about Thancred

With the confirmation that seeing the Starshower grants the Echo, why then does Thancred not possess the Echo? I noticed that he saw it during 1.0, shown here: https://youtu.be/X7JdbKUsFLk

Not everyone that witnesses the Starshower gets the Echo.

As noted by only a handful of people in the crowd were granted it in the Crystarium.

In addition, you'll note that Alisaie, Alphinaud, G'raha Tia, Y'shtola and Urianger did not get granted the Echo when witnessing the Starshower in the Crystarium either.

Also, from what I understand, the 1.0 Starshower has been retconned. Initially, the Starshower was just the remnants of Meteor. Now, it's the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

In addition, you'll note that Alisaie, Alphinaud, G'raha Tia, Y'shtola and Urianger did not get granted the Echo when witnessing the Starshower in the Crystarium either.

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It's possible that even if they would otherwise be awoken to the Echo, most of the Scions are not in their true bodies which might have an impact on their ability to be affected.

The "triggering lost memories" thing might not work as effectively either if they're already aware of the truth.

Or it all might be a visual-and-aural illusion by Elidibus and the "newly Echo-blessed" only think they heard Hydaelyn's voice - or rather, we only think they did from what they described.

We'll have to wait and see whether they even really continue to show signs of the Echo, and how much Elidibus is puppeteering the entire thing.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Also, from what I understand, the 1.0 Starshower has been retconned. Initially, the Starshower was just the remnants of Meteor.

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Even that was a fan theory from after Yoshida joined the team and started the Dalamud drop. Yoshida brought the moon down. I have no idea what Hiromichi Tanaka and then-world-setting-manager Kenichi Iwao really intended for the Starshower. The way that the Starshower immediately precedes the appearance of the primals, that it flashes purple just before it opens, and that it appears over Mor Dhona suggests that it was probably related to the abandoned Presence of Silvertear Lake story somehow. But whatever it was, it's gone now! lol

I'm starting to wonder if it was not a lie from Elidibus to convince people to be warrior of light, do some "light" stuff to start another flood.
Because when you hear him and from what I understood, starshower = your echo awakens.
It's weird.

The idea that he'd try to pool Light again already is not illogical; Ascians recycle and course-correct their plans all the time. But something about it feels weird as a writing choice. We've been thwarting that plan since 3.4, and now we're fighting Eden and cutting everything off at the source. It feels so thematically-inclinded towards resolution of matters on the First regarding its instability/rejoining for a while so we can do something else in the story. Like go to Garlemald. Could main thrust of the plan be just, "Meh, umbral everything again"? (Though that could be a secondary goal of the primary being successful, though.)

I think the primary thing might just be...

[A] Cause societal stress / collapse
[B] Keep the Warrior of Light distracted and bogged down
[C] Ideally have one or more of these high-zeal, low-doubt "Chosen" go full Ysayle and not question their actions as they try to murder the Warrior of Light fOr ThE gOoD oF tHe WoRLd

To my memory, the 1.0 starshower was something that inexplicably happened after the Battle of Silvertear Skies. I don't recall anything anywhere hinting at what awakened the Echo in 2.0's generation, though I would wholly believe it was the Calamity (Dalamud / Bahamut himself).

I can't say for sure what Elidibus' plan is, but I can say with relative certainty it has something to do with disrupting society, at least in the Crystarium. I feel there's a little too much attention put on that for it to not be relevant. Other points to note are their dreams of glory (heroes act without thought of glory or reward; accolades are a consequence, not a goal) and that while Elidibus may have titled those he awoke "Warriors of Light," that title is used to denote one with Hydaelyn's blessing (in part or in full), something they do not have. Yet. (The Doylist answer for it is more likely "We need to refer to the PC in the voiced dialogue, so let's go with the classic title." Otherwise you get awkward stuff happening like in X, where nobody ever actually says Tidus' name.)

It's late so I'm not jumping on to check, but I also believe Elidibus said that we would "meet our end" at their hands, so he wants them to kill us...

Well, whatever direction this goes, it's gotta go fast, given as precedent means the next patch will be the "True End" of Shadowbringers. Please look forward to it!

As it's already been stated, the meteor rain is only a catalyst. It doesn't really grant the Echo, so much as it teases it out of those who it would have awakened in naturally. As for why that is, well, think about it. Having been so long since the Age of Ancients, there's bound to be souls present in our present that were not present at the fall of Amaurot and the world as it was back then. Though it's pure speculation, they may have also been souls who were not bothered by the original calamity, as strange as that may seem. Either those who are zen, or maybe even those who sought to bring about the calamity faster. I'm sure Amaurotine society had psychopaths/sociopaths/criminals.

I always got the impression that since every boss in Amaurot has a face that the these were Ancients who didn't like society and distorted themselves with creation magicks to become abominations and tear the society down. The Terminus Cult, basically. I wouldn't want our dear Scions to have souls related to them, but I'm just spit balling ideas as for why not everyone can have the Echo unlocked.

We may just be in the midst of poor conveyance though. It seems, from all the people I know who've done 5.2, that there is a split in perception of the Crystarium event. Some people are convinced that everyone present got the Echo, while others, including myself, see it as only a portion of the crowd received it. Though I really like the idea that the perception of receiving the Echo is also an illusion/trick like Iscah said up above.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Well, whatever direction this goes, it's gotta go fast, given as precedent means the next patch will be the "True End" of Shadowbringers. Please look forward to it!

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*clings favourite characters tightly*

:(

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's late so I'm not jumping on to check, but I also believe Elidibus said that we would "meet our end" at their hands, so he wants them to kill us...

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I wonder if that will be his downfall? He seemingly does not know everything (not knowing about Seto for example) so maybe he believes that he can manipulate the people that easily into killing us. But the story makes it clear to the people of the first that the past ones were way too fast in condeming Ardbert and his group and that they too believed in it. I hope that us telling them the true story and our deeds (I mean we saved them all) will make them not believe him at the end thus not taking actions against us. Also I wonder what he would pull to make them believe that we are evil. We are not real Warriors of Darkness since we do fight with Light. Seeing how the story has to wrap up soon I just cant see how the events would all just turn around. So maybe his plan will just fail.

I dont remember but does he know that we are not really stuck there? Maybe he believes that we are like the scions thus are not able to go back.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But the story makes it clear to the people of the first that the past ones were way too fast in condeming Ardbert and his group and that they too believed in it. I hope that us telling them the true story and our deeds (I mean we saved them all) will make them not believe him at the end thus not taking actions against us.

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The strong implications of Elidibus' little speech is that he's counting on them forgetting, because he believes mortals always do. Considering that he now is Ardbert in the eyes of the public, Ardbert's legacy is now in his hands, and not ours. Our stories won't mean anything unless we convince the populace that he isn't the real deal.

My initial impression of the whole fiasco is that warriors newly possessing of the echo will be immediately struck with the idea that they can now climb to be equal to the Warrior of Darkness, and have their voices and ideas be equally important. None of them will carry the understanding that, even with all our power, our friends still had to subvert the flow of time itself in order to combat the Flood of Light and defeat Emet. Instead, they'll have delusions of grandeur, and will likely turn against us when we refuse their obviously righteous and good(to them) ideas.

Either that, or a whole mess of new Warriors of Light will do a whole bunch of really good deeds and give a kickstart the Flood of Light. That'd force us to actually become Warriors of Darkness, and sow chaos on the first in order to save it. Then we would be the new Shadowkeeper.

All just my opinions, and many on this board are way more lore savvy than I am.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

there's bound to be souls present in our present that were not present at the fall of Amaurot and the world as it was back then.

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This makes the most sense to me. I hadn’t thought of that but absolutely they’re only going to receive the Echo upon seeing it if they possess a fragment of an original soul.

For the other question brought up elsewhere, I think something will absolutely put these new Warriors of Light at odds with us and force a fatal confrontation.

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Originally Posted by Brannagh

The strong implications of Elidibus' little speech is that he's counting on them forgetting, because he believes mortals always do. Considering that he now is Ardbert in the eyes of the public, Ardbert's legacy is now in his hands, and not ours. Our stories won't mean anything unless we convince the populace that he isn't the real deal.

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Which is why I hope that he is simply wrong and his assumptions will be his downfall. Of course it will be a hard time showing them that its not the real Ardbert but I cant just accept that these people would just turn on us for some unknown reason. That would kinda mean that they would also turn against the exarch. Ardbert and his legacy is important but we are the ones that saved them. We do a lot to make it all happen and I would find it quite bad if they only need a bit of lies to try to kill us. Especially after they learned how easily it is to be fooled.

Also we cant forget that they still are starting out. They are kinda at ARR. They would need a huge power boost to even get near our level and we dont even know if they are truly WoLs since they seemingly lack crystals. Heck we cant even be 100% sure if they now have the echo or if it was all a trick.

My whole problem with this plan is: We only have a few patches left in this expansion and the x.3 patches are often the ones that end the expansion story. I have no idea how they would fit all of those conflicts and changes (and the new warriors getting strong enough) into these few patches and I kinda doubt that we would deal with this in 6.0 and beyond. Didnt Yoshida also say that we get a lot of the overall conflict between Zodiark and Hydealyn done? I think that this plan is a bit of a red herring and since we are now actively trying to go against the Ascians, no matter what Elidibus had planned we will stop it. We wont wait until it happens, we go against it before that.

And with his speech of getting more heros the first will be safe when we are gone because others have taken it up to protect the weak and since no ascian is there to destroy it there is no need for new WoLs thus no fear of a flood of light. (Since it seemingly were their crystals that played a big role in it)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

*clings favourite characters tightly*

:(

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I’m terrified for my loves