The Resonant and The Echo (5.2 spoilers/Stormblood spoilers)

This thread is intended to discuss The Echo, The Resonant, and what the 5.2 meteor shower could mean for the future. Also I would like to discuss Zenos's dream of the final days of Amaurot, and the little uhh, white robed fellow's words thereafter.

So as far as I understand it, The Resonant were created by the project headed by Zenos and Aulus mal Asina to create soldiers infused with The Echo so that Primals could more easily be battled. In any person that the projected succeeded in, the result was a super soldier capable of superhuman feats and aether manipulation. As we now know, this imparted a stronger form of The Echo to The Resonant, allowing not just resistance to soul enslavement from a Primal, but the ability to instead enslave a Primal. Zenos told us we could do it, and then promptly took control of Shinryu at the end of Stormblood.

This "artificial" Echo is also shown to be permanent and tied to the soul, given that Zenos has become Ascian-like after killing himself.

I'm here to claim that it's not artificial at all, but rather, a more true representation of the Echo that the Ancients possessed originally. In 5.2 we learn that it's a separate and distinct characteristic belonging to humanity, and that the Echo we have as players and NPCs get naturally from seeing the meteor rain is, "...just that an Echo of a far greater thing, like a symphony."

I wonder if Emet-Selch knew about The Resonant. If he, in any measure aided in the project in an attempt to give the memory of Amaurot to the entire population of sundered man. I also wonder if Zenos's claim, "I've always had this dream." is a translation gaffe or if that means because of him sharing blood with Emet-Selch, he had it naturally from birth. I interpreted the scene to mean he'd has it since his Resonance procedure. If that's the case though, what of Fordola? Does she now dream of Amaurot? The little white robed guy wonders if Emet-selch found a way to impart the memory? Hmm...

I speculate that Elidibus is giving the Echo to people on The First, so that he may rip it from their bodies and bestow the Resonance onto a chosen few, so that they may battle us to the death. Maybe Emet-selch didn't know about the Resonance, but surely Elidibus does, having taken in Zenos's memories by possessing his brain. Maybe he intends to gain the Resonance himself? I know this isn't the grandest articulation of thought, but what do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

So as far as I understand it, The Resonant were created by the project headed by Zenos and Aulus mal Asina to create soldiers infused with The Echo so that Primals could more easily be battled.

---

Going by Aulus's speech in the Resonatorium, the technology was originally developed to give Garleans regular old magicks. The project just happened to expand in the direction of the Echo; perhaps with some nudging by Elidibus and/or Emet-Selch. When Zenos is first thought to be dead, Elidibus calls him an "invaluable test subject" and (depending on the language) suggests Varis "sacrificed his own son on the laboratory table" to make Garlemald an empire that could conquer a world with new power.

As "genetically superior" and culturally hardened as Garleans are, having magicks and being able to contend with primals would be a big leg-up and take away the main advantage non-Garleans have. In reality Elidibus was just setting up a Calamity, of course, but still.

We don't know how many people the process was used on, and we only know of two, for sure, that received the Echo, right? Zenos / Fordola?

Personally, I believe that Zenos is more of a lab-rat than we've been told. I think it's highly likely that, at the very least, before Shinryu was found and Fordola kidnapped Krile so he could merge with it, that Zenos had already been through the machine to test it and gain magicks. He seems to have been using magicks all the way back to the attack on Rhagr's Reach. And this is a stretch but I wouldn't be surprised of he was already abnormal either incidentally through being a descendant of Emet-Selch or that Emet-Selch had been experimenting deliberately.

The way the machine works is not what was originally expected, though. The Ironworks engineer later reveals:

Quote:

---

All the pods are designed to drain the aether of the occupant...save that one right there. Unlike the others, the interior's been fitted with an array of sensors to measure aetheric wave forms.

---

All that happened to Krile, apparently, was that she was scanned and copied.

As for the recurring dream, Zenos says he's always had the dream in every language, for what it's worth.

Quote:

---

I have always dreamed of it... Fire falling from the heavens, and the city─nay, the whole world ablaze.
Ich sehe eine Stadt, die in einem Regen aus flammenden Sternen untergeht. Es ist immer die gleiche Stadt, das gleiche Inferno.
Une pluie d'étoiles, puis une ville... Non... le monde qui est détruit dans les flammes... Je ne compte plus le nombre de fois où j'ai eu cette vision.
星が降り注ぎ、街が……世界が燃え落ちる夢だ……。どういうわけか、昔から繰り返し見る。

---

As for the First, I'm not sure what Elidibus is planning. The obvious two guesses are: [A] making thousands of people feel chosen, and powerful, righteous, and eager to do good is a recipe for DISASTER. Gods save us from half the people who think they're doing the Gods' work. Some zealous, doubtless do-gooder would put a knife through every one of us with the right prompting. And even if none do, Elidibus is still inciting the collapse of the status quo. And [B] maybe he can make the Light pool and try for the Calamity all over again. But that feels...done to death. It feels more like the former, especially since he admitted on the moon he wants them to kill us, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

that Zenos had already been through the machine to test it and gain magicks

---

Wasn't there some short story about Zenos's childhood in which he embedded crystals into his hand to brute force magic or something against one of his trainers? Or did I just imagine that in a fever dream?

I think, technically, Number 24 in Castrum Abania was the first person to live through the Resonance procedure, but it wasn't perfected and left him mentally unstable. He's dead now, as far as we're aware, not a major character, and probably won't show up again but... if he were, technically we'd have 3. I do wonder if his frame/skeleton will show up again like it did in FF6, which he's a reference to, as the Magic Master from the top of The Cultist's Tower. I think that's only described in one of the lore books though.

Also, Garlean magitek is nothing to sniff at. Whether Zenos had Magic or not earlier, it's quite possible that his armor and swords were tuned to do such things. Like, remember when Regula van Hydrus is fought in Azys Lla during the Warring Triad sidequests, he unlocks the inhibitors on his sword and summons that aetherial tiger? Or did I misremember that? I do think Zenos was abnormal before though, prepped for super soldiery since infancy, if not while in the womb itself.

Ok, good to know that it wasn't a translation issue.

It's hard to say what Elidibus is actually up to, of course. They keep a lot intentionally vague, as always. I don't think any speculation of mine has ever been right either haha. I'm just really curious about how these plot points surrounding The Echo and The Resonant will interact, if at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Wasn't there some short story about Zenos's childhood in which he embedded crystals into his hand to brute force magic or something against one of his trainers? Or did I just imagine that in a fever dream?

---

You're not crazy; it's the short story exclusive to the printed book. It's basically Syrio Forel, but if he hated Ned Stark and was training Arya to get closer to him for an assassination attempt and then Arya actually discovered how his techniques work and he as so angry at his cultural secrets being appropriated he tried to kill Arya, lol.

But yes, Zenos did not have magicks at that time, which is one of the main reasons I think he went through the machine twice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I think, technically, Number 24 in Castrum Abania was the first person to live through the Resonance procedure, but it wasn't perfected and left him mentally unstable.

---

Correct! Though the lore book doesn't mention the Echo, just magicks.

Quote:

---

Aulus mal Asina sought to infuse pureblood Garleans with the ability to manipulate aether, and with his twenty-fourth subject he finally succeeded. The experiment was not without side effects, however, and the subject exhibited psychological instability. With further live testing, the scientist would go on to create the Resonant.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Like, remember when Regula van Hydrus is fought in Azys Lla during the Warring Triad sidequests, he unlocks the inhibitors on his sword and summons that aetherial tiger? Or did I misremember that?

---

This one was bizarre. I think the reference was supposed to be to Kefka's tiger, since it's a Triad quest, and I think he's using ceruleum to replicate magicks. But don't quote me.

EDIT: Ok, I'm not crazy. It was named "Ceruleum Servant" and was mimicking a biddable avatar like a carbuncle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I don't think any speculation of mine has ever been right either haha.

---

Well don't take me as gospel on anything I can't give a concrete, inescapable citation on if you like an idea better. My track record is all over the place. I work mainly with archival and established precedent. I can snipe a lot of the upcoming intentions and correct interpretations from pretty far out, but if we're talking about things written recently with little foreshadowing or gods forbid reframed world-setting rules, I'm never going to get it as early as the people willing to take a shot in the dark on faith. Though one might argue they incidentally guessed. But still, when you're right you're right, I'll render that salad unto caesar.

Isn't it mentioned in the lore book that no one funded Aulus's research on Resonance before Zenos in Encyclopedia Eorzea? Like everyone thought his theories where madness or whatever.

Yeah, the Imperial court was not a fan of his theories at all, either because they were madness or just insulting to their race and culture. Garlean pride is an interesting thing to consider. Think about it: It's the Garlean purebloods with third-eyes and no magicks. They could practice selective breeding for one generation and be done with this forever, and they apparently choose not to. Says a lot. Thus Aulus did his research in secret until Zenos accidentally stumbled over it and encouraged it.

I'd really love for them to write Fordola back into the main story. She's got the same gift as Zenos, just you know, not as strong. I wonder why Elidibus hasn't tried to twist her mind, given her conflicted nature.

From what I understand about Elidibus, is that Yoshi mentioned fairly recently about us going to the Ascians instead of having them come to us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As we now know, this imparted a stronger form of The Echo to The Resonant, allowing not just resistance to soul enslavement from a Primal, but the ability to instead enslave a Primal. Zenos told us we could do it, and then promptly took control of Shinryu at the end of Stormblood.

---

I think it's a step too far to assume that the Resonance is a STRONGER form of the Echo, just because Zenos used it to enslave Shinryu. It could well just be that Zenos is much better at handling it than the typical Echo user is. The fact that he believes we could do it as well, is another hint in that direction, considering that we just have the normal Echo.

(Of course, we should also consider that Fordola, who does not have nearly Zenos's level of plot-breaking OP-ness, became a nearly unstoppable combatant until we figured out some hokey trick to disable her abilities that for some reason does not work on regular Echo users... or apparently on Zenos? No one's even considered trying to use the device on him?)

One thing I'm curious about is whether the Echo was truly transplanted, or if it's actually a horrifically, life-wasting method for doing the exact same thing the Starfall illusion does. Like, you can either lethally drain the Aether from a hundred unwilling victims, or you can simulate a bunch of flaming rocks.

Aulus: Why not both?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I think it's a step too far to assume that the Resonance is a STRONGER form of the Echo, just because Zenos used it to enslave Shinryu. It could well just be that Zenos is much better at handling it than the typical Echo user is. The fact that he believes we could do it as well, is another hint in that direction, considering that we just have the normal Echo.

(Of course, we should also consider that Fordola, who does not have nearly Zenos's level of plot-breaking OP-ness, became a nearly unstoppable combatant until we figured out some hokey trick to disable her abilities that for some reason does not work on regular Echo users... or apparently on Zenos? No one's even considered trying to use the device on him?)

One thing I'm curious about is whether the Echo was truly transplanted, or if it's actually a horrifically, life-wasting method for doing the exact same thing the Starfall illusion does. Like, you can either lethally drain the Aether from a hundred unwilling victims, or you can simulate a bunch of flaming rocks.

Aulus: Why not both?

---

Clearly it's not the same as just The Echo. We know that Krile's aether wave/soul patterns were copied, but it was also magnified by all the people burnt up in the other pods. It is a more powerful version, by the process of merging many souls into one. I mean, Krile by no means displays any superhuman feats beyond aether trail sensitivity and reading people's pasts.

I, too, wondered why we didn't get to use the device on Zenos. I can only surmise it was because Urianger tuned it to the "frequency" of Krile's Echo or whatever. It's a really muddy water, honestly. I mean, I think they just wanted to introduce the idea of duty bound items to use between your rotations as a mechanic... Of course, we could conjecture that perhaps since the WoL had no desire to kill Fordola the WoL was unwilling to fight at their fullest, despite the gameplay at the time more or less demanding it. When it came to Zenos we had to up the ante, and at the time it was current you needed a party of 4 for the dungeon, and really, no less than 3 competent players in each role to take on Zenos in Ala Mhigo.

They are clearly different methods with different results. One is a suped up copy, similar to the clones in... of all the comparisons I could use... Pokemon The First Movie. It can be applied to anyone strong enough to survive the procedure. The other is use of a catalyst to unlock a latent, inborn potential. i.e. Only those who would have awakened to their Echo naturally will awakened to it upon seeing the meteors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I, too, wondered why we didn't get to use the device on Zenos. I can only surmise it was because Urianger tuned it to the "frequency" of Krile's Echo or whatever. It's a really muddy water, honestly. I mean, I think they just wanted to introduce the idea of duty bound items to use between your rotations as a mechanic...

---

The duty button was used earlier in the trial against Lakshmi. As for Urianger's device, we don't use it against Zenos because we don't find out that he's a Resonant until moments before he possesses Shinryu, and we haven't actually fought him (or even seen him in person, unless you count Elidibus wearing his body) since then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I mean, Krile by no means displays any superhuman feats beyond aether trail sensitivity and reading people's pasts.

---

Ah, but that's my entire point: Zenos is not Krile. I believe that Zenos received Krile's Echo, and nothing stronger than what she has. However, his ability to USE that Echo far, far exceeds Krile's ability. If the Echo is a computer, Krile is the sort who can barely work a web browser, while Zenos is writing his own applications. They both use the same computer, but Zenos is far more talented.

The sacrificed victims are intended as (yet another) example of Garlean ruthlessness and cruelty. Aulus discovered a way to copy the Echo using a hundred lives, and he (and by extension, Aulus's handlers, especially Zenos) felt that was a small price to pay. The only thing we know for certain is those lives allowed the Echo to be copied. We don't know for certain that they "powered up" the Echo in the process. We can speculate, given that Zenos clearly displays more ability than Krile has - but is that because of the process, or because it is Zenos? I believe the latter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The duty button was used earlier in the trial against Lakshmi. As for Urianger's device, we don't use it against Zenos because we don't find out that he's a Resonant until moments before he possesses Shinryu, and we haven't actually fought him (or even seen him in person, unless you count Elidibus wearing his body) since then.

---

Doesn't Urianger say he upgraded his device in The Measure of His Reach MSQ so it's effectively always on?

Urianger's device has a hokey working condition when used against Fordola, the person using it cannot know how it works or what it is meant to do as Fordola could read the person using it and dodge appropriately.

Now Zenos has not once displayed this type of sensitivity so I doubt this device will/would've work/ed, let alone Urianger straight up tells us how it works so we cannot use it against such an opponent again anyway.

Now I believe Zenos's resonant is different from Fordola's and I like to believe that Krile was only used for Fordola who seemingly got implanted with a heightened version of Krile's echo. Zenos most likely got his Resonant from a different echo user and judging by things a walker type echo user, he hasn't displayed anything that could correlate to Krile so I'm hesitant to believe he went through again using her.

If the Echo is just a re-awakening of our originally super-charged Ancient souls, the Resonant could just be the super-charging of a soul without anything to do with the Ancients. Or perhaps a straight-up forced version of the Echo, re-awakening the old Ancient power but with some unfortunate side effects due to the unnatural process of awakening.

I'm feeling like the Resonant treatment may have awakened and enhanced a dormant Echo that was already present in Zenos to begin with in light of the recent revelation that he's been having dreams of the last days all his life.

The Garlean physiology's inability to manipulate aether might just prevent ones with the potential from manifesting their Echo normally.

Being a close descendant of an unsundered Ancient likely has some role in that.

That might be why he has two Resonant eyes, though it's also possible he went through the process twice or with a different Echo frame than Krile. I had assumed he had already underwent the procedure since he knew exactly how magnificent it was, when he was putting Fordola on the table.

It'll be interesting to see what comes next in regards to Zenos. I need to finish Summoner to 80 so I can see the scene I've heard about involving Fordola.

I finished the Summoner 80 quest line, and while it didn't reveal anything not already discussed, it was interesting to see that Fordola was aware of how many lives it took to grant her the Resonance. It's worth getting SMN/SCH to 80 if you haven't. Fun chain of CSes.

So I've been thinking about the Resonance and the Echo again as I play through the 2.1~2.55 bit of the MSQ in my Let's Play. The bit where Elidibus says to Minfilia on their first meeting, "If you could master your gift, then there would be no strife between our people. We would be of one mind." He also says that we would see them in their true forms, not the crude approximation that the gift conjures to our sight, in respect to our expectations and perceptions.

It makes me think about how strong Zenos is in the gift, artificially granted or not. He can forcefully take bodies that are vastly different. Do all of his techniques, regardless of if the body can manipulate aether or not, and he can teleport like one too. But he would not be of one mind with them, since he embraced violence for its own sake... Do you suppose this is why the Ascians ignored him during Stormblood, and they did not intercede or even observe the Resonatorium? You'd think with them showing up at almost every major primal incursion, one of them would have come to witness Shinryu at the very least. But no, it wasn't until Zenos was dead that they sought to use his body as a device for their own ends.