Ivalice Raids. I still don't get it

Well. Since they where released I try to make sense of this Raid Series but I still don't get what it was all about. Can someone explain this Story to me? Do I have to know the Tactics storys to understand it better? Because I have trouble to follow this storys since the release

What in particular is confusing to you?

I personally thought enough was explained without reliance on knowledge FF12 and Tactics, though admittedly some of the explanations come from talking to NPCs between quests.

Dalmasca was conquered by the empire 30 years ago, and after Doma and Ala Mhigo were freed Dalmasca tried doing the same. In response the empire destroyed their capital.
We come in here, exploring the ruins of the capital and discovering that it was built on the ancient kingdom of Ivalice which was thought to be a myth.
Ivalice had a civil war called the War of the Lions, and during that war twelve heroes called the Zodiac Braves appeared to help a commoner man named Delita become king. But during the quests we also discover that they fought an alien monster named Ultima the High Seraph, and several of their group sacrificed themselves to seal Ultima away.
In the modern day Ultima is trying to free herself using the blood of the descendants of the leader of the Zodiac Braves, Ramza Beoulve. She sends out Auracite which mutate people into monsters called Lucavi.
The Lexantale family we are working with are descendants of the Beoulves and so Ultima uses Auracite to drag Alma and later Ramza Lexentale (named after his ancestor) to her prison so she can free herself. We kill Ultima and the spirits of the Zodiac Braves thank us for finally being free of their duty keeping her imprisoned.

You don't need to play any Ivalice games to understand what's going on, though I'm sure it helps.

To begin, the story centers around a Garlean theater troupe. You meet a young girl, Alma, on the streets of Kugane who implores you to help her; being a hero, you do so, which leads to their airship Prima Vista. There you meet her older brother Ramza and are shortly joined by Cid, ultimately being tasked with finding her missing father in the devastated streets of Dalmasca. Thus begins the first raid, which has you fighting against bandits, monsters, and lucavi as you delve under the city to find the lost city of Lesalia, where the man you're looking for (Jenomis cen Lexentale) has been possessed by a lucavi. After beating it he is left alive, but the auracite is taken by a group of Bangaa brigands led by Ba'gamnan.

Once you get him back to the Prima Vista, Jenomis explains that his mission was to uncover the truth of Ivalice, as it's passed into legend in the modern age and is related to his ancestor Orran Durai (who was condemned as a heretic for writing the truth) whose name he wishes to clear. Some technobabble ensues explaining how auracite works, and in the end you're left to your own devices until Ba'gamnan can be tracked down.

Ba'gamnan's compatriots eventually defect after seeing the negative influence the auracite has on him, appearing on the Prima Vista and informing the group he's retreated to the Clockwork City of Goug on the Ridorana Cataract. Upon arrival you're beset by more lucavi and still-active tower guardians (including the robot Construct 8), and upon reaching the city's apex Ba'gamnan falls prey to the auracite's corruption and transforms into Yiazmat, leaving you with little choice but to put him down. While things appear to have been resolved for now, the auracite has a strange effect on Ramza, and you're left to your own devices until Jenomis completes more research.

Upon your return a lot of bad things happen in succession; Alma is possessed by the auracite and disappears, saying something about blood and a covenant or something (memory's fuzzy). The group collectively comes to the consensus it's talking about the Orbonne Monastery in the Golmore Jungle, but due to that being viera territory it's very hard to get there; only upon striking an alliance with the Dalmascan Resistance's Fran are you able to do so, but Ramza is taken in Alma's stead before you venture far into the dungeon. Fighting your way down it's revealed that the whole raid series was a ploy by Ultima, the High Seraph - a primal-like being - to break the seal placed on it by the original Ramza after Saint Ajora betrayed Hydaelyn by summoning Ultima (both were ancient Warriors of Light; the "blood of the covenant" refers to Warriors of Light, not any sort of bloodline). Aided by Ramza and his compatriots' spirits, Ultima is defeated and banished, seemingly for good this time.

With everything learned, Jenomis has more than enough information to clear his ancestors' names and Ramza takes several levels in kindness after meeting his namesake. Ultima is banished for good, removing a major threat to the world.

The story ends on a stinger - led by a spy within the troupe, the IVth Legion (led by one Noah van Gabranth) is seen within the Clockwork City of Goug, admiring Construct 8 in particular.

This is a basic outline. Very basic. Finer points require inquiry.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(both were ancient Warriors of Light; the "blood of the covenant" refers to Warriors of Light, not any sort of bloodline)

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You're absolutely right, I forgot that part.

Honestly, the only thing I don't get is, how having Fran, a defected Viera, "Guide" us through the Golmore Territory causes the resident Viera to NOT attack us.

What with the whole idea being that leaving the Forest is frowned upon, returning to the Forest is unacceptable and bringing outsiders with you is just unthinkable...

Sure, they allow people to leave the Forest in order to deal with a threat to the Forest, but dealing with Ultima was not the reason why Fran left (It's the reason she agreed to go back and help us, but it's not until we highlight that Ultima exists and is a threat does she even know about it)

OK, now that I'm back from doing laundry...

Key Points

Ivalice

An ancient kingdom, in contemporary times it is considered only legend. Once home to a corrupt aristocracy, the commoner Delita rose to kingship with the aid of Ramza Beoulve and brought forth a golden age; however due to further complications Ramza's name and deeds were stricken from history (see Ultima below); other than the Durai Reports, which chronicle the true history of Ivalice, Ramza is a forgotten figure.

The Clockwork City of Goug, one of the raid dungeons, appears to have been the ancestral homeland of the Garleans.

Ultima, the High Seraph

A seemingly extraterrestrial primal-like being, Ultima is the source of auracite and the main antagonist of the storyline. It was summoned / empowered by one Saint Ajora Galabdos, an ancient Warrior of Light who betrayed Hydaelyn. In order to keep Ultima sealed beneath the Orbonne Monastery, Ramza sacrificed his life and asked his name be stricken from history so as to prevent curious souls from waking the creature. In order to truly break the seal, a Warrior of Light is needed due to Saint Ajora's pact with it. Though sealed at first, due to it spreading pieces of auracite it still retains an influence in the world, and the Durai Reports indirectly led to its (very temporary) release and ultimate defeat.

Auracite, a mineral created by the being, is seemingly capable of storing memories and/or mutating creatures. This is what's responsible for the lucavi, who make up the bulk of the bosses encountered in the raid series. (The Garleans appear to be using a synthetic equivalent to help pilot their new Weapons in the Sorrow of Werlyt arc.)

Dalmasca

A city-state in Southeastern Othard, under which lies the ancient capital of Ivalice, Lesalia. After it was conquered by the Garlean Empire some 30 or so years ago it rebuilt, but in the wake of Doma and Ala Mhigo's successful rebellions made its own bid for freedom. Unfortunately, the response to this rebellion is swift and decisive; Dalmasca is carpet-bombed into submission before long.

A resistance known as Lente's Tears yet lingers, helmed by one Princess Ashe, who was thought to have been killed during the invasion. She uses Fran, a viera, as an ambassador. Ba'gamnan, a former Dalmascan fusilier, is crushed by his guilt at failing to protect Ashe and her brother Rasler during the invasion, which drives his actions and hatred of the Garlean Empire.

The city-state is currently ruled by Noah van Gabranth of the IVth Legion.

Majestic Imperial Theater Company

A theater troupe from the Garlean Empire, now fallen on hard times due to Varis' censorship of the arts. Led by Jenomis cen Lexentale (a.k.a. Arazlam Durrai), who seeks to clear his ancestor Orran Durrai's name and bring to light the truth of Ivalice's existence and history. With him are his two children, Ramza bas Lexentale and Alma bas Lexentale, named after two key figures in Ivalice's history so as to prevent Jenomis from forgetting his life's mission. Unfortunately Jenomis gets in a bit over his head before the story begins, prompting Alma to seek out a hero to save him, which ends up being the Warrior of Light. Their base of operations is their airship, the Prima Vista.

The endeavor is aided by Cid nan Garlond, a Sharlayan scholar by the name of Mikoto, and two moogles, Montblanc and Hurdy.

Questions?

My own questions:

Why are there Lucavi waiting around in the ruins of Rabanastre and the lower floors of Ridorana? Like, I know auracite from Ultima causes people to turn into Lucavi, but why are they there, waiting for us to encounter them, and apparently doing nothing else worthwhile?

Who was the guy who turned into the final boss of the Rabanastre raid? He ends up being named "Argath Thadalfus" when he auracited on us, but who was he before that? Why was he just waiting at the bottom of Lesalia, an ancient mythical city thought lost to time? How did he even get there? (The lorebook also asks, but does not answer, these questions.)

When Ba'Gamnan shot his subordinate at the end of the Rabanastre raid, and that subordinate just hopped back up apparently unharmed, why did just about every poster here, including those more familiar with Ivalice, speculate that it's unusual and clearly supernatural? Given that in the very next tier, the explanation given was "well, Bangaa are just really hardy, don't worry about it". So was it a plot point that was just dropped?

Speaking of dropped plot points, was there actually anything significant to Ramza Lexentale's change of attitude at the end of the Ridorana tier? Because even the NPCs commented that Ramza is acting completely different, but when the Orbonne tier was released, it turned out that Alma (who was acting pretty normally) was the one under the influence of the auracite, and Ramza explained his change in behaviour as "I was just really stressed", and everyone just dropped the issue. Was it another altered plot point?

If the spell Ultima was named after Ultima the High Seraph, does that make Lahabrea's comment that the Ultima spell in the Praetorium "a sliver of Zodiark's power" still accurate? I mean, as an Unsundered Ascian, presumably Lahabrea should know the truth. Is there a link between Ultima the High Seraph and Zodiark?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Honestly, the only thing I don't get is, how having Fran, a defected Viera, "Guide" us through the Golmore Territory causes the resident Viera to NOT attack us.

What with the whole idea being that leaving the Forest is frowned upon, returning to the Forest is unacceptable and bringing outsiders with you is just unthinkable...

Sure, they allow people to leave the Forest in order to deal with a threat to the Forest, but dealing with Ultima was not the reason why Fran left (It's the reason she agreed to go back and help us, but it's not until we highlight that Ultima exists and is a threat does she even know about it)

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Fran's position is different in FF14 being that she is the Princess of Dalmasca close friend. Fran most likely talked to the resident Viera in advance to warn them of Ultima which is why they may have allowed us to travel through the Forest under the condition that she does not lead them to their village. They maybe territorial but they're not zealous dumb to the point they would ignore a warning of a possible threat to their own home which this case is Ultima since her release would mean the Viera's home will be destroyed first.

Consdiering we are about to get the contiuation of the Storyline soon from the upcoming updates, we most likely may get a bit more information on what deals Fran had to make involving them allowing us through the Forest.

Man, how am I glad that I killed Livia sas Junius after doing Ivalice alliance raids.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Why are there Lucavi waiting around in the ruins of Rabanastre and the lower floors of Ridorana? Like, I know auracite from Ultima causes people to turn into Lucavi, but why are they there, waiting for us to encounter them, and apparently doing nothing else worthwhile?

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I assume either:
a) people who used the Auracite back in the War of the Lions and have been there all along
b) people who found the Auracite recently and were whisked away by Ultima like what she did to Alma

The first option works for Lesalia though not for Ridorana since the Dalmascans used it as a lighthouse.

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Who was the guy who turned into the final boss of the Rabanastre raid? He ends up being named "Argath Thadalfus" when he auracited on us, but who was he before that? Why was he just waiting at the bottom of Lesalia, an ancient mythical city thought lost to time? How did he even get there? (The lorebook also asks, but does not answer, these questions.)

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He's the ghost of https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Argath_Thadalfus one of Ramza's minor enemies from the War of the Lions. In Tactics, after Ramza kills him he strikes a deal with the Lucavi and becomes undead to get revenge, which is probably why he asks for Ramza to forgive him in XIV once he comes to his senses.

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When Ba'Gamnan shot his subordinate at the end of the Rabanastre raid, and that subordinate just hopped back up apparently unharmed, why did just about every poster here, including those more familiar with Ivalice, speculate that it's unusual and clearly supernatural? Given that in the very next tier, the explanation given was "well, Bangaa are just really hardy, don't worry about it". So was it a plot point that was just dropped?

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That was just the players reading too into things.

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Speaking of dropped plot points, was there actually anything significant to Ramza Lexentale's change of attitude at the end of the Ridorana tier? Because even the NPCs commented that Ramza is acting completely different, but when the Orbonne tier was released, it turned out that Alma (who was acting pretty normally) was the one under the influence of the auracite, and Ramza explained his change in behaviour as "I was just really stressed", and everyone just dropped the issue. Was it another altered plot point?

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This one does seem to be a change yeah.

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If the spell Ultima was named after Ultima the High Seraph, does that make Lahabrea's comment that the Ultima spell in the Praetorium "a sliver of Zodiark's power" still accurate? I mean, as an Unsundered Ascian, presumably Lahabrea should know the truth. Is there a link between Ultima the High Seraph and Zodiark?

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The spell being named after the being is just speculation on the characters' part. That being said, wasn't it the Heart of Sabik that was a sliver of Zodiark's power, not Ultima? I'd need to double check the exact line.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

My own questions:

Why are there Lucavi waiting around in the ruins of Rabanastre and the lower floors of Ridorana? Like, I know auracite from Ultima causes people to turn into Lucavi, but why are they there, waiting for us to encounter them, and apparently doing nothing else worthwhile?

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According to Rofocale's card, it was transfigured from a noble of Rabanastre; how long it sat underground guarding Lesalia is unclear (much less why it would guard Lesalia, if information on it would be beneficial to Ultima's plan). Mateus and Hashmal, encountered on the streets, are unexplained; I surmised they were rebels who gave into the whispers of other auracite stones in desperation. Other than that it can be inferred they have the same point of origin as Rofocale. (It's never explained why they're just there, but Ivalice references, yay!) Famfrit, the lucavi fought right ouside of the Ridorana Lighthouse, is mentioned to be a (re)creation of the Duma-influenced Ba'gamnan. Belias, unfortunately, has conflicting inferences; it's implied the being is the source of the lighthouse's beacon, but personally I find it hard to believe it was just sitting there for who knows how long, and given Ba'gamnan was responsible for Famfrit...

(I assume Mateus and Hashmal aren't rampaging around Rabanastre for budgetary reasons.)

It's unexplained how the spirits of Ramza's companions are able to undergo a similar transformation, seemingly without the use of auracite.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Who was the guy who turned into the final boss of the Rabanastre raid? He ends up being named "Argath Thadalfus" when he auracited on us, but who was he before that? Why was he just waiting at the bottom of Lesalia, an ancient mythical city thought lost to time? How did he even get there? (The lorebook also asks, but does not answer, these questions.)

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This is never directly explained, but between his apparently exhausted and wounded state when he appears after the battle I assumed Jenomis was possessed and we just beat the stuffing out of him until he came to his senses a la Shiva, guided down there by his research (How did he get past Rofocale? Don't worry about it, there will be more Ivalice references!).

As for Argath Thadalfus himself, his card names him a "minor noble long deceased... resurrected and granted unimaginable power by the Duma." Past that... you will very unfortunately need to do a little homework to really get what his deal is - his Tactics counterpart is, well, pretty much the same character (a classist asshole who fought alongside but ultimately betrayed Ramza), though this Argath comes to his senses and asks for forgiveness upon defeat unlike the other. Given auracite's ability to store memories, my guess was that his personality / memory had somehow been imprinted on the stone.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

When Ba'Gamnan shot his subordinate at the end of the Rabanastre raid, and that subordinate just hopped back up apparently unharmed, why did just about every poster here, including those more familiar with Ivalice, speculate that it's unusual and clearly supernatural? Given that in the very next tier, the explanation given was "well, Bangaa are just really hardy, don't worry about it". So was it a plot point that was just dropped?

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I don't recall seeing such speculation, but speculation is what it is precisely because it's imprecise and lacks evidence (hence my general distance). Not everything thrown at a wall sticks, and the less evidence you have the less likely it is to do so.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Speaking of dropped plot points, was there actually anything significant to Ramza Lexentale's change of attitude at the end of the Ridorana tier? Because even the NPCs commented that Ramza is acting completely different, but when the Orbonne tier was released, it turned out that Alma (who was acting pretty normally) was the one under the influence of the auracite, and Ramza explained his change in behaviour as "I was just really stressed", and everyone just dropped the issue. Was it another altered plot point?

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Given Alma is possessed and kidnapped, only to be returned and have Ramza taken in her stead at the very outset of the Orbonne Monastery... maybe? The only other reason I can think of why this would happen is a particularly gratuitous another Tactics reference where Ultima is resurrected by (very temporarily) using Alma as a host. Ramza's behavior is explained as a combination of stress and typical Garlean cultural standards, though fortunately Jenomis does call him out when he gets particularly egregious with it, and his personality becomes gentler when things settle down.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

If the spell Ultima was named after Ultima the High Seraph, does that make Lahabrea's comment that the Ultima spell in the Praetorium "a sliver of Zodiark's power" still accurate? I mean, as an Unsundered Ascian, presumably Lahabrea should know the truth. Is there a link between Ultima the High Seraph and Zodiark?

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Yes and no. It depends on how you frame things; the way I reconcile these conflicting bits of information is by assuming that the Ultima spell is just an imitation of Ultima the High Seraph's "Ultimate Illusion." Whatever the kupo the Heart of Sabik is / was, it's connected to Zodiark - as Hydaelyn informs you before you can really start damaging the Ultima Weapon, it is "Darkness clad in steel" - so if it were simply an imitation of Ultima's "Ultimate Illusion" powered by the Heart, it would technically be a sliver of Zodiark's power, just expressed in a form imitating something that already exists.

Past that? Whoooooo knows...

(Look forward to more Ivalice stuff in a week! If you don't like it, too bad!)

First of all understand the FFXIV version takes a lot of liberties with the actual storyline of Final Fantasy Tactics.
So what I'm going to tell you about is the original story first... then we'll get into the FFXIV version.

There are Four separate, underlying plots, and they are linked.

1st:
The real power in Ivalice is the Church of Glabados, based around the divinity of Saint Ajora Glabados. The Church plays predominantly into this as its a western feudalistic society and it really mirrors it well. The story begins with a legend of how the 12 Zodiac Braves wielded these Zodiac Stones to fight against the Lucavi (think Demons, a spinoff of Lucifer) and save the world. This is the basis of the faith of the Church and of Ivalice as a whole. The belief in Saint Ajora, a central figure in the religion 12 zodiac braves who saved the world.

2nd:
Ivalice just recovering from the Fifty Year War against Ordalia. The power vacuum caused by the death of its ruler, King Omdoria, soon sparks another conflict. Princess Ovelia and the younger Prince Orinas are both candidates to the throne, with the former supported by Prince Goltana of the Black Lion, and the latter by Queen Ruvelia and her brother, Prince Larg of the White Lion. This erupts into a full-scale war known as the "Lion War", with either side using whatever means possible to secure their place in the throne.

3rd:
Nobles regard commoners and peasants as animals, and many commoners try to take revenge on the nobles, who abandoned them after the war with Ordalia. As many of them served in that war and were discarded at the end of it. It ended in a Peace treaty, but it was Ivalice who had to give up the most including reparations so they had no money to pay them anymore either. Ivalice was ripe for a civil war.

4th:
Ramza is the Youngest son of the Beoulve Noble family. Delita is his childhood friend who was taken in by Ramza's father and raised as part of their family, even paying for his education and his sister. But he is not a noble, nor is his sister. Even though Ramza's father has compassion for them, he is unique among nobles up to and including his other sons and Ramza's brothers. Namely Zalbag and Dycedarg who do not.

The Story is actually this:

Ramza and Delita are training as Squires in the Order of the Northern Sky, to eventually become knights. But a group made up of the commoners who have had enough of Nobility rises up to attempt to overthrow the nobles, called the Corpse Brigade. After several twists Ramza, Delita end up in pursuit and closing in on the leader of the Corpse Brigade who have kidnapped Delita's sister believing she was a Noble.

Zalbag is leading a force simultaneously closing in on them. When they finally clash, Ramza, Delita, and their unit win the day, but... Wiegraf the leader of the Corpse brigade holds Delita's sister hostage and threatens to kill her. Zalbag who has just arrived... orders his men to shoot Delitas sister to get to Wiegraff... (because, well she's just an animal and commoner anyway right?). Stunned, Wiegraf retreats into the hideout and sets off a chain of explosions. It ends with Delita holding his dead sister in his arms and the castle blowing up around him.

Everyone believes Delita is dead... and Ramza cuts ties with his own family after seeing what they really were, and becomes a mercenary. They run into each other again outside of the Orbonne Monestery of all places, where Ramza is in a Mercenary unit guarding Princess Ovelia.

Her personal Body Guard is actually Agrias a holy knight (A person you fight AGAINST in the Orbonne Monestary Raid which is way off). While they are fighting a band of enemy knights, Delita sneaks in and kidnaps the princess.

This leads to a chase that kicks off the string of events known as the War of the Lions.

The REAL story is that the Zodiac Braves WERE the Lucavi. They possess the bodies of Humans who used the powers of the stones, and the entire faith the Church is based on is a lie. Ultima Seraph who you fight in the Ivalice Raids WAS Saint Ajora. This is the thread that Ramza was on. They are not white auracite storing "strong emotions" the way the Ivalice Raid Storyline portrays them.

Delita was on a different path. He was with the Church playing the nobility against each other in order to destroy the nobility who he hated with every fiber of his being due to the death of his sister. So the Church will have absolute power. Which he does do in the end, and to make peace ends up marrying Princess Ovelia and taking over the throne. Delita is absolutely ruthless in his attempts to achieve this and is not the "good guy" he's portrayed as.

The Ivalice Raids, actually departs from the real storyline

Half of the bosses you fight in Orbonne Monastery were actually good guys fighting alongside Ramza... like Agrais and Mustadio Bunansa. They were not Zodiac Braves nor did they hold Zodiac Stones. To do so would have caused them to be possessed by Lucavi.

The FFXIV Storyline for Ivalice Raids is kind of ass backwards.

But if you want to know the full storyline and how it plays out if you didn't play the actual game its here...
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...antasy_Tactics

Now that you know that though...

I will say I STILL enjoyed the Ivalice Raids immensely... they are a spectacular Alliance Raid tier, and its probably lucky for the Devs their version of the story turned out a little too convoluted for most people to catch, so despite everything else the Raid itself REALLY plays into the feel of Ivalice and Final Fantasy Tactics even if the actual storyline did not do that very well.

So despite all of that, I did love the Ivalice Raids themselves and even the "feel" of the storyline even if it did take a lot of liberties with FF Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Half of the bosses you fight in Orbonne Monastery were actually good guys fighting alongside Ramza... like Agrais and Mustadio Bunansa. They were not Zodiac Braves nor did they hold Zodiac Stones. To do so would have caused them to be possessed by Lucavi.

The FFXIV Storyline for Ivalice Raids is kind of ass backwards.

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The story for this raid in this game is that Agrius, Mustadio, and Cid are guarding the sealed tomb that holds Ultima captive(which happens to be beneath the ruins of the Orbonne Monastery). Theyre specifically testing if we're strong enough to defeat her before allowing us to enter. The reasoning being part "not wanting to see more innocents die" and part "if we unseal the tomb she might escape and doom the world". Then when the fight with her starts to get intense, they jump in to help(along with their Ramza) having recognized in us the power to see the fight through to the end.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

The story for this raid in this game is that Agrius, Mustadio, and Cid are guarding the sealed tomb that holds Ultima captive(which happens to be beneath the ruins of the Orbonne Monastery). Theyre specifically testing if we're strong enough to defeat her before allowing us to enter. The reasoning being part "not wanting to see more innocents die" and part "if we unseal the tomb she might escape and doom the world". Then when the fight with her starts to get intense, they jump in to help(along with their Ramza) having recognized in us the power to see the fight through to the end.

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Yup, and this is an important distinction. It shows that the Auracite can be used with NOBLE intentions, and the results are monstrous, but still good-natured beings, unlike the twisted, selfish, vengeful creatures we'd fought up to that point. The battles against Mustadio, Agrias, and Cidolfus are there to test any who would try to defeat Ultima. Anyone incapable of defeating them would stand no chance against Ultima herself. The flashback cutscenes following Orbonne Monastery show the three of them volunteering to take on that duty, in fact.

It's notable that while Auracite was created by Ultima, the stuff isn't inherently evil. It can be used for good or evil, depending on the nature and intent of the user. Ultima herself, for that matter, is presented more as something incredibly alien, rather than explicitly evil. When first encountered, she attempts to resolve the situation peaceably, with an offering of more Auracite - and seems surprised when we don't gratefully accept. It's not hard to imagine that back in the days when she was worshiped, this was a standard exchange for her.

How much you want to bet OP skipped half the raid story dialogue. It's a pretty straight-forward story.

I think the question of how, if at all, Ultima (being) is related to Ultima (spell) has a real chance of being answered soon.

Since this image from the trailer never showed up in any of the 5.2 quests so far:

https://i.imgur.com/dqW9mPw.png

Then unless it's in Ishgard Restoration for some reason we can safely assume it's from the relic quests and therefore depicting her, since the relic quest will require completing the Ivalice raids.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Yup, and this is an important distinction. It shows that the Auracite can be used with NOBLE intentions, and the results are monstrous, but still good-natured beings, unlike the twisted, selfish, vengeful creatures we'd fought up to that point. The battles against Mustadio, Agrias, and Cidolfus are there to test any who would try to defeat Ultima. Anyone incapable of defeating them would stand no chance against Ultima herself. The flashback cutscenes following Orbonne Monastery show the three of them volunteering to take on that duty, in fact.

It's notable that while Auracite was created by Ultima, the stuff isn't inherently evil. It can be used for good or evil, depending on the nature and intent of the user. Ultima herself, for that matter, is presented more as something incredibly alien, rather than explicitly evil. When first encountered, she attempts to resolve the situation peaceably, with an offering of more Auracite - and seems surprised when we don't gratefully accept. It's not hard to imagine that back in the days when she was worshiped, this was a standard exchange for her.

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So i was going to add this point in my reply to Silver, but didnt want to muddy the narrative with "side details". In the original FF Tactics game they actually show an instance of the zodiac stones being used for a pure purpose. A side character is killed following a battle, and one of the stones(was it virgo? i havent replayed that game in a while) reacts to her brothers feelings and revives her. No possession, no lucavi summoning - just an honest "miracle". So the idea that Cid and company could have used the auracite to become guardians of Ultima's tomb isnt really that far-fetched - using game logic anyway.

I would like to add that some of those Lucavi were probably images of elder Primals that the auracite was used against; Belias was previously mentioned in the SMN quests by the Ascian of the Twelfth Chalice (who explicitly called it an elder primal), and gave Tristan the ability to summon Belias-egi (which is identical to the Gigas adds). I'm guessing Mateus, Hasmal, and Famfrit were likewise from a now forgotten era.

As for Ultima and Zodiark, note how Ultima has the same pose as the recurring statue of Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I think the question of how, if at all, Ultima (being) is related to Ultima (spell) has a real chance of being answered soon.

Since this image from the trailer never showed up in any of the 5.2 quests so far:

https://i.imgur.com/dqW9mPw.png

Then unless it's in Ishgard Restoration for some reason we can safely assume it's from the relic quests and therefore depicting her, since the relic quest will require completing the Ivalice raids.

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That may be an image of the first Hrothgar Queen given the coloring and crown are completely different from Ultima's.

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Originally Posted by Nightsword

That may be an image of the first Hrothgar Queen given the coloring and crown are completely different from Ultima's.

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That looks like a stylized version of FFXII’s Ultima to me. In that game, she had blue skin, a white dress, horned crown, and a bunch of wings.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Speaking of dropped plot points, was there actually anything significant to Ramza Lexentale's change of attitude at the end of the Ridorana tier? Because even the NPCs commented that Ramza is acting completely different, but when the Orbonne tier was released, it turned out that Alma (who was acting pretty normally) was the one under the influence of the auracite, and Ramza explained his change in behaviour as "I was just really stressed", and everyone just dropped the issue. Was it another altered plot point?

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It really was just stress, and culture shock, according to the Company Assistant. Pretty much Ramza's jerk persona was him acting abnormally, while he was typically much kinder. His dialogue about it is from The City of Lost Angels quest, after you unlock Orbonne, but you haven't actually gone in yet. As far as I know, no has commented on it when talking about his change (unless that what you meant by Ramza himself acknowledging it)?

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And just when the boy had begun to return to his normal, caring self... Oh, Ramza. I do hope you are unhurt! When we were in Garlemald, the young Lexentale never spoke ill of others- and most certainly not his sister. It wasn't until arriving in Kugane that his temperament began to change...and not for the better. He began lashing out at anyone and anything that was different. His life in the Empire had not prepared him for what awaited on the outside, and the exile left him stripped of an identity in which he still held much pride. He allowed his frustration to consume him, but such is to be expected from someone so young. [NAME]. I ask you to look past Ramza's transgressions, for they are but a product of his youth. He is a good child, and does not deserve the fate he has been dealt. Please, you must find him.

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Which, makes a sense to me. He doesn't fully drop it after the Lighthouse. He still snips at Montblanc enough. Although, it does still seem like a dropped plot point due to him having his attitude shift after touching auracite.

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Originally Posted by PoLaD

Although, it does still seem like a dropped plot point due to him having his attitude shift after touching auracite.

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Honestly, it felt to me like they had a plotline planned for this, but changed their minds and decided to downplay it instead. I was fully expecting him to be channeling the soul of the original Ramza, or something - the fact that his one-eighty happened right after touching the MacGuffin is a bit too unfair a red herring, if it was planned this way from the start.

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Originally Posted by PoLaD

It really was just stress, and culture shock, according to the Company Assistant. Pretty much Ramza's jerk persona was him acting abnormally, while he was typically much kinder. His dialogue about it is from The City of Lost Angels quest, after you unlock Orbonne, but you haven't actually gone in yet. As far as I know, no has commented on it when talking about his change (unless that what you meant by Ramza himself acknowledging it)?



Which, makes a sense to me. He doesn't fully drop it after the Lighthouse. He still snips at Montblanc enough. Although, it does still seem like a dropped plot point due to him having his attitude shift after touching auracite.

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The change was definitely commented on by Lina, who was wondering why Ramza suddenly became nice and polite after touching the auracite right after Ridorana. I need to check my screenshots, but I believe the other NPCs were at least taken aback by Ramza's sudden politeness.

And the comment by the Company Assistant was during the 4.5 Orbonne unlock quest, ie during the patch when we learned that it was Alma under the influence of the auracite, when there was no sign of that in the 4.3 Ridorana quests (unless we go into deep conspiracy theorizing for post-hoc justification). Hence why it feels intensely like it was a dropped plot point that was retconned when it actually became time to deal with it, rather than something planned out beforehand.

(Also, given Ramza Lexentale's sudden personality change into harshness and bitter snark due to stress, does that mean Ramza can theoretically summon his own Esteem?)

Alma was saying earlier than 4.5 that she heard a voice coming from the Auracite, so her getting taken by Ultima wasn't completely out of nowhere. Ramza's shift still seems to have been a change in direction though.