Problem with Pugs??

I don't see any at the moment.. I love my job.. just wailing on some mobs and getting tons of TP!! Who's with me??

I don't know how other classes play, but I'm a lvl 30 pugilist and I love the engagement we have in solo combat with having to use the right skills at the right time aka: FF+LS to buff evasion, evade, nail a jaringstrike, buff again before a big attack, evade it lol Can't wait to get flurry and see how that skill works I'm imagining abunch of fast punches

Flurry is amazing.. at least with the right buffs.. hurray for TP monsters!!!

I wish WS's were less reliant on evasion, and it would be nice if we did a bit more dmg, but other then that, I enjoy playing pgl. It's the only class thats not boring to play for me.

My main problem is what Raansu pointed out, the fact that the WS is reliant on Evasion (Granted it is based on counter, but come on..., I don't want to have to rely on my Lancer WS, beyond Feint.)

all in all, I am definitely loving Pugilist.

If anything, I wish they would make Simian Thrash not requiring an evade to use. Lets face it, pugs are most likely going to be off tanks most of the time, and it really sux that our best WS requires an evade to use.

The first one is that Blindside doesn't seem to be working properly. It does give a damage boost, but it is so small that it makes the 1-minute-cooldown skill not even worth equipping, Blindside II not really being any better. If this skill was supposed to be the new Sneak Attack, then it certainly doesn't fulfill its function for now.

The other thing I would like changed is the way the evasion-based weapon skills are triggered. I understand that you can use those certain moves right after successfully evading an attack, but why can't be use them when the enemy misses us?

Just hit 36 Pug today and got my quest done. Yay for affinity! Sorry ...ahem. I see Pug as a evasion/ magic defense tank. And honestly most of the weapon skills are good but not the best. You want to do some killer damage?
Flurry+ Maim = Pain = Maim, Maim, (is it dead yet?) Maim.

i'm a 50 pug tanked every NM very easly except dodore due to his attack that prevents you from using feather foot, forsight etc.

from my expersence PUG dps wise is 2nd only to Archer.

actually, i find the animation to be redundant. simian thrash will blow your mind, but the rest are..... ALL THE SAME!!!

I enjoy PUG a lot. My issues are that Simian Thrash is reliant on evasion as others have pointed out. It's a good skill but it's not so good that we should have to evade in order to use it. With it being a multi-hit WS, there can be quite a lot of misses, making Victimize II a better option for a lot of situations.

The effects of our skills are also very lackluster as with most classes.

I do have to praise SE on giving us the ability to tank pretty well on most fights. I honestly didn't expect PUG to be very good at it when I started but it really is a pretty good tanking class and is fantastic for off-tanking.

I'm loving pugilist. As mentioned, it is a worthy tanking class. I would like to have seen an evasion/resistance increase buff that lasts for a period of time, much like the marauder skill 'Defender' increases defense and magic defense. Something like 'Presence of Mind', except useful.

First of all, Simian Thrash would be EVERYBODY'S main WS if it was not reliant on evasion, so it's understood and was a good move imo. Secondly, having a monster miss you is different than you evading and attack, and therefore, jarring strike and haymaker only proc when you evade, that's just how it works. I enjoy the way PUG plays, as it can have a few different play styles, dependent on what traits and actions you use.

I'm 45 PUG and i have to say it's a blast to play, tanking is fun. It would be great if we had some EVA+ clothes to wear to help with our Evasion. Hopefully that will be part of the new class gear that comes out.

A trick i discovered while off tanking NM's is that you can voke a weak mob then use FF. When you evade the weak mob you can Simian Thrash the NM.

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Originally Posted by Gimmecat

First of all, Simian Thrash would be EVERYBODY'S main WS if it was not reliant on evasion, so it's understood and was a good move imo. Secondly, having a monster miss you is different than you evading and attack, and therefore, jarring strike and haymaker only proc when you evade, that's just how it works. I enjoy the way PUG plays, as it can have a few different play styles, dependent on what traits and actions you use.

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Why is that a problem? Everyone has a goto WS, why should we be punished by needing to evade to use our best WS? We already do shit dmg in comparison to LNC and Arc. ST not being reliant on evasion would even the playing field a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Raansu

Why is that a problem? Everyone has a goto WS, why should we be punished by needing to evade to use our best WS? We already do shit dmg in comparison to LNC and Arc. ST not being reliant on evasion would even the playing field a little bit.

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Information dat mined shows that Asuran fists was intended for the dd role while in full offensive stance
sadly we haven't seen stances or steal which were mentioned by SE on the ffxiv page (not lodestone)

I am loving Pugs right now. There was a moment there I didn't. However, when I obtained Pummel I fell to love once again. 2-3 hits with Pummel, Ferocity+Bloodbath+Victimize= 500 Damage and +250 HP to me. With that a most likely almost dead or dead mob depending on what I am fighting.

i'm not as high as you guys but i don't work my evasion tp moves at all heavy >light strike > pummel > ferocity > VICTIMIZE!!!!! let ss presence of mind sacrifice and if at all needed featherfoot do the rest o.O
but yesh...do love me some victimize.

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

i'm a 50 pug tanked every NM very easly except dodore due to his attack that prevents you from using feather foot, forsight etc.

from my expersence PUG dps wise is 2nd only to Archer.

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Well, that's just wrong. Pug dps is pretty trashy compared to both archer and lancer.

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Originally Posted by Machazareel

Well, that's just wrong. Pug dps is pretty trashy compared to both archer and lancer.

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Agreed. I have heard that MRD out damages us as well.

idk....i've found MRD to be a very slow kill job o.O but maybe thats just me

Im an archer 50 and a Pug roughly 36 if i remember, I lvl so much its hard to remember lol but i just want to point out that pugilist is very position demanding, currently i duo grind with a buddy of mine who is leveling archer, using all of my old +1-3 bows i used while leveling mine. I'm using spiked knuckles, and if i'm behind the mob, eatting acc food, i heavy -> flurry flurry flurry flurry and i can actually keep up in total dmg to the crazy output of archer dmg

i only stop to ws when i hit 300 tp, ferocity -> hawks eye -> raging strike -> victimize for 500-700 then i restart the flurry cycle (btw i also run still precision when in flurry mode)

gogo crit rate on pug weapons


if I have to tank, pug has rediculous amounts of hate tools in the current broken hate system, begin battle with archer dropping his most powerful attack (first action seems to gain no hate on mobs), then taunt -> raging strike and proceed to evade tank, when i evade tank i only use feint and haymaker 2s for tp while i toss out light strikes and heavy strikes, if im going to pop featherfoot i toss out raging, ferocity and hawks eye then featherfoot, cause u know an evade is coming, so u can haymaker for 600+

for hate (quick way to never loose hate as long as u dont die), taunt (after claimed) -> raging strike -> blindside -> ferocity -> hawks eye for initial then just cycle taunt + raging, taunt + ferocity n hawks eye and blindside when its up, accomplice people in a cycle

our dmg sucks compared to archers and lancers and I'm talking about R50 here if you are still lvling then yeah you might be out damaging your friends at 2x or 3x or whatever. Once all others DoW except Glad get their endgame weaponskill Pugs are pretty much bottom of the barrel. Simian Thrash yeah looks not bad but the dmg is crap compared to say Chaos Thrust or Bloodletter.

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Originally Posted by Raansu

If anything, I wish they would make Simian Thrash not requiring an evade to use. Lets face it, pugs are most likely going to be off tanks most of the time, and it really sux that our best WS requires an evade to use.

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You gotta realize all the super skills have a catch. Simian Thrash has the only after evade. Riot Blade inflics you with pacification for a short time, and Chaos Thrust gets a big damage boost when the mob hits 20% health to the point my lancer buddys tell me its better to use other skills till the 20% mark unless you are going for an incap that works with Chaos Thrust. Even then Simian Thrash doesnt do nock your socks of damage, depending on the mob you can out damage it with a concussive blow II. The real issue with the evate is you cant put the skill in to a battle regimen making TP in a boss fight best spent damn near anywhere else unless you have tones of it. They are all situational and all kindof vanaty moves not like Asuran Fists was back in XI where after you got it that was 99% of the time your go to weapon skill as monk. Oh and i tank NMs on pug as the main tank so we are not always off tanks, coincidentaly thats the only time you really wanna use Simian Thrash because you probubly wont be participating in battle regimens and i feal at least Simian Thrash is a pretty good hate grabber regardless of the damage delt.

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Originally Posted by Feo

The first one is that Blindside doesn't seem to be working properly. It does give a damage boost, but it is so small that it makes the 1-minute-cooldown skill not even worth equipping, Blindside II not really being any better. If this skill was supposed to be the new Sneak Attack, then it certainly doesn't fulfill its function for now.

The other thing I would like changed is the way the evasion-based weapon skills are triggered. I understand that you can use those certain moves right after successfully evading an attack, but why can't be use them when the enemy misses us?

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It isn't supposed to be a sneak attack it supposed to be used on normal attacks to get guaranteed crits which it does. It's also an aoe hate grabber. The point of this skill is to help turn a mob to redirect hate to the pug not to stack with WS as a sneak attack

i do understand that simian thrash is evasion only for the massive damage it does, but my problem with it is that it is also an incap move on the great buffalo and you should not have to go aggro a low level mob while your party fights a n/m just to be able to use an incap on the horn. it's just an opinion, but that doesn't feel very party based to me going to solo a different mob while my party struggles to live. i wouldn't mind it being evasion based for low lvl mobs, but to me it's a major drawback to have to use that as an incap on a horn.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i do understand that simian thrash is evasion only for the massive damage it does, but my problem with it is that it is also an incap move on the great buffalo and you should not have to go aggro a low level mob while your party fights a n/m just to be able to use an incap on the horn. it's just an opinion, but that doesn't feel very party based to me going to solo a different mob while my party struggles to live. i wouldn't mind it being evasion based for low lvl mobs, but to me it's a major drawback to have to use that as an incap on a horn.

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Pieste, and buffalo both have AoE attacks that you can evade to trigger Simian Thrash.
The other 3 NMs are in groups so you can simply taunt one of them depending on your parties strategy.
Though I do believe the buffalo is the only one with an Other Left incap.

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Originally Posted by Feo

The first one is that Blindside doesn't seem to be working properly. It does give a damage boost, but it is so small that it makes the 1-minute-cooldown skill not even worth equipping, Blindside II not really being any better. If this skill was supposed to be the new Sneak Attack, then it certainly doesn't fulfill its function for now.

The other thing I would like changed is the way the evasion-based weapon skills are triggered. I understand that you can use those certain moves right after successfully evading an attack, but why can't be use them when the enemy misses us?

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I can't say how accurate this is, but it's on the finalfantasyxiv.com site (official game site)
Blindside - Strike from an enemy’s rear, increasing attack power by half of your dexterity.

So you may want to try increasing your dex if the boost is less than desirable.

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Pieste, and buffalo both have AoE attacks that you can evade to trigger Simian Thrash.
The other 3 NMs are in groups so you can simply taunt one of them depending on your parties strategy.
Though I do believe the buffalo is the only one with an Other Left incap.

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yeah i know you can evade it i am refering to when you are tryin to get a battle regimen goin it's hard to say ok guys let me see if i miss the next aoe attack before i can br with you guys so just sit there locked in regimen til i see if that works...nope it hit me. i'm just talking bout it's kind of difficult to work together with the rest of your party on a nm with a battle regimen with an ability you have to depend on avoiding an attack before you can join in. i believe it is the only incap of any of the nm's that requires and evade before executing. i just wish the attack could be used in a br without having to evade an attack before it was open to use. i just try to cheat and let the group attack the left horn while i ease over to use my part of the regimen(victimize II) on the right horn.

Can you even stack it in a battle reg?
I know you can't stack some stuff like flurry.
So given the conditional requirement, i've not bothered to test any evade ws in a BR

neither have i akuun to be perfectly honest. it's just it would seems common sense to be able to use a horn incap in one, but i have no idea if it can stack to be honest. like i said i usually just save up the 3k tp buff up and join the br with Victimize II and slide to the other side. it seems to be alot more reliable knowing when i can use one than trying to time the other. yeah the conditional could screw you also in the scenario if you evaded an attack and put it in br then got hit after would it work since it was triggered before or would it fail to execute. that's something i haven't considered and it is a good catch on your end and something i will see if i can find out after the servers come back up. since you know some of the same people i do on the server i'll get the message relayed if i find an answer.

Ya, I think it's kinda silly on SE's part to include an incap action for a side other than front, when you have to evade to use it. I go the victimize route as well, we just let the marauders and lancers worry about the left horn ^^

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Originally Posted by Akuun

Can you even stack it in a battle reg?
I know you can't stack some stuff like flurry.
So given the conditional requirement, i've not bothered to test any evade ws in a BR

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I have tryed, I timed it perfectly in that my whole party was pretty much stacked all the way up and i evaded rite after the last guy stacked, I had enough time to throw simian thrash in the BR before the evade timer went off and close the BR. I recieved a message saying somthing like "this ability cannot be placed in the battle regemn".

ok ty that solves that question. now the question becomes why have a horn incap for a nm that cannot be used in a br against the nm lol

To clear up some misconceptions about pug.

Pug might seem like a poor dps in leve/sp parties but its not the case in NM fights.
Other melee like Mrd and Arc might look like they do more dmg because they have bigger burst dmg and better weapon skills.

From my experience on NM fights best melee dmg wise goes like this Arc = Pug > Lnc > Mrd. This is only considering Uraeus and Buffalo since gob, dodore, mosshorn all have adds and aoe dmg will be superior. On the aoe fights pugs still do great dmg if not the best on actual NMs themselves.

Pugs are great tanks on Uraeus and Buffalo even Dodore if you distance tank with mdef. Can tank goblin ok if you have a off tank seperate the NM from the adds, but mosshorn and his minions will rip you a new one.

Dunno if I can agree with Pug = Arc damage-wise in NMs, my str with gear and traits goes up to almost 170 and I still do much less dmg than either ARC or LNC, the dmg just doesn't compare, while I'm doing 30-35 max per 2 of heavy strike or almost 45 with the 3 hits of flurry, ARC are doing like 50-60 with just normal attacks, same goes for LNC almost and the speed of attack from PGL doesn't affect it that much, and their WS do much more dmg than us. =/ True we can still do DD, but no use comparing us with say ARC... Unfornately though I guess

Thanks Drexel for providing that information.

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Originally Posted by ShadowCadja

Dunno if I can agree with Pug = Arc damage-wise in NMs, my str with gear and traits goes up to almost 170 and I still do much less dmg than either ARC or LNC, the dmg just doesn't compare, while I'm doing 30-35 max per 2 of heavy strike or almost 45 with the 3 hits of flurry, ARC are doing like 50-60 with just normal attacks, same goes for LNC almost and the speed of attack from PGL doesn't affect it that much, and their WS do much more dmg than us. =/ True we can still do DD, but no use comparing us with say ARC... Unfornately though I guess

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Not true I play both Arc and Pug on NMs and believe it or not my pug's dmg is almost equal to my archer's on both Uraeus and Buffalo. Gob, Mosshorn, and Dodore all have poor def but the results are still the same when no considering AoE dmg.

As far as weapons skills go I do about 6-700ish with victimize on Uraeus 6-700ish with bloodletter on Uraeus. Same goes for buffalo, a couple of hundred higher on mosshorn, over 1k on gob and 1.2k range on dodore all with a full BR buffed victimize 2

Victimize II on how much TP?
Is it the same with ARC if you use it at 2000?
Is it worth comparing with other class abilities who come out faster because they consume less TP?