Questions about the Thirteenth shard [Spoilers]

So during the MSQ... [Spoilers]


Emet-Selch reveals that his plan is to rejoin the shards to revive Zodiark at full strength and then sacrifice the remaining lives on the Source to bring back his kin that died to fuel the original summoning.

However, it's noted that the Ascians have "Made a void of the Thirteenth", meaning it cannot be rejoined. Would this not have had an effect on the plan, given that Zodiark can thus only be at best 12/13ths of his full strength?

Also, is the Thirteenth in a state similar to what the First would have been in had Minfilia not stopped the Flood of Light, only instead of being engulfed by Light, it is engulfed by Darkness? (Meaning the reason for the lack of the rejoining is no large unbalance on the Source happening simultaneously, as is hinted at for the First's rejoining being a combination of the Flood of Light on the first and the release of Black Rose on the Source)

Finally, as all the shards are linked (At least, to the Source), shouldn't the Thirteenth be having an effect on the Source's aether, much like how the First's situation was thinning the aether?

Or is the situation with the Thirteenth that it essentially doesn't exist as a shard any more? (Despite still housing a ton of Voidsent and having a link to the Source allowing for tears in the void to occur so that said Voidsent can travel to the Source)

The 13th can no longer be rejoined by a calamity, but if Zodiark was to wrest back control (aka after one more rejoining) he would have the power to just forcefully rejoin all remaining shards including the 13th.

The 13ths aether is effecting the source, there are voidsent practically everywhere in the source.

This question has been coming up a lot since we first heard his plan given voice that way in-game.
"Shouldn't the plan have been possible from the start?"

We've been told the aether on the Thirteenth was annihilated. How can anyone ever be whole again?

We have a few avenues of speculation, but on the surface it seems strange nothing has addressed this head-on.

Perhaps the Ascians have faith Zodiark has the power to "undo" something. Recall that Nabriales says during the Chrysalis that time itself bows before Zodiark. Or perhaps we've been misled (or the team has retconned something and we've been "mistaken" until now). The First's aether wasn't annihilated, we're "fixing" it right now. Or was that only because the Flood was incomplete? Would it have been annihilated if that last circle around Norvrandt had closed? Perhaps Elidibus air-lifted the "Shard of Darkness" from that dimension when he got Unukalhai and Cylva. (Sure would have been my priority if I were him.) (...Sabik?)

Who knows! I have to assume the story will address it at some point. The team has done so well polishing the world lore when needed.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

The 13ths aether is effecting the source, there are voidsent practically everywhere in the source.

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Though, that's not really to do with the aether affecting the source. Given that Voidsent aren't being created on the source via people being corrupted by an abundance of Dark aether (Much like how someone on the First might become a Sin Eater if they were to spend a lot of time in the Empty)

Voidsent on the Source come from the Thirteenth, via tears in the Void between shards. Either opened naturally, or forcibly (I.e. People on the Source performing rituals)

Heck, we've not even really noted any interactions of Voidsent ever even creating more Voidsent on the Source in the same way we see Sin Eaters on the First corrupting people's aether towards light causing them to turn into Sin Eaters. We only see them summon things into a host body (Typically dead bodies

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

We've been told the aether on the Thirteenth was annihilated. How can anyone ever be whole again?

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More than that, how can the Thirteenth sustain Voidsent at all if the aether has indeed been annihilated.

I mean, unless we're to believe that aether corrupted beings such as Voidsent/Sin Eaters can both survive without any aether AND can persist the length of time since the incident on the Thirteenth happened without having eaten each other to extinction by now?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Recall that Nabriales says during the Chrysalis that time itself bows before Zodiark.

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Though, recent revelations could lead to this being reference to the fact that the Ascians/Ancients are/were timeless beings able to live for eons. And with the implication that Elidibus (Or his predecessor?) is the heart of Zodiark it could very well be that a statement such as this might just be one of those numerous references to the fact that we, and our shards, are mortal and thus destined to turn to dust.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Who knows! I have to assume the story will address it at some point. The team has done so well polishing the world lore when needed.

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Hopefully! Would be nice to get a little more of a look into the Voidsent. Perhaps after going to the Moon? (As I recently took a break from FFXIV to play FFI through to XIII, going to trips to the Moon is a surprisingly frequent plot point in FF games...)

The 13th as of now is currently unable to be rejoined because it's flooded with darkness but that being said it's not impossible that the 13th could be salvaged at some point if something like Eden were introduced that could potentially reverse this, the empty is basically full of UMBRAL (light) alligned aether but the aether is still there, as we've seen in the Eden storyline so far it's possible to restore the balance by reintroducing the elements using a Primal of said alignment to convert the aether then dissipating it. As Aether in the 13th is essentially ASTRAL (Darkness) alligned it's possible that down the road it could be salvaged by doing the opposite but the challenge would be that you'd need to create a foothold on the 13th to begin with so that those going there dont get corrupted into voidsent. That and of course the other problem being that the voidcourt (Diablos/Cloud of Darkness etc) who were corrupted into their current forms by Auracite would need to be permanently disposed of as well to have a chance of properly reversing the damage.

I suspect that "annihilated" is basically shorthand for the much-more-complex explanation that is has been rendered into such an active, chaotic state that it is now completely incompatible with life. Like saltwater, the Voidsent may thirst for it, but they cannot drink it.

Or, at least, that's the explanation they'll retcon in now. When they originally wrote "annihilated", they likely really meant annihilated. The story has greatly evolved, since then...

As aether is indicated to be matter/energy in the FF14 setting, I generally would think the laws of thermodynamics still apply here unless explicitly shown otherwise. Thus for the Thirteenth Shard's aether to be gone, the question is "where did it go?" If voidsent are aether starved, why can't they die?

It's been hinted at in game that although the 13th cannot be rejoined, yet, it is not an entirely lost cause. Think about it this way, the 1st was about to be completely engulfed in light, but was "able" to be rejoined. It stands to reason that the same was possible for the 13th, but because of poor planning things just went awry.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

As aether is indicated to be matter/energy in the FF14 setting, I generally would think the laws of thermodynamics still apply here unless explicitly shown otherwise. Thus for the Thirteenth Shard's aether to be gone, the question is "where did it go?" If voidsent are aether starved, why can't they die?

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Hmm judging from how umbral/astral works, I guess the aether still exists but is basically super dispersed and in a state where it can't be used, like moving to fast to stay in the body.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

The 13th can no longer be rejoined by a calamity, but if Zodiark was to wrest back control (aka after one more rejoining) he would have the power to just forcefully rejoin all remaining shards including the 13th.

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That's not a fact. It was fan speculation when we were told pre-Shadowbringers that the Eighth Calamity would be the last, and we were trying to make sense of what that would mean.

In the end, it seems more likely to be a reference to the nature of Black Rose and that the world in that timeline was damaged to the point that there may not be anything left of humanity to guide to a Ninth Calamity.

Plus, if he just needs one more calamity, then why didn’t he merge all the worlds in the future ironworks timeline? Cause if he had the Ascians would have killed all of humanity to free the Amaurotians aether.

inb4 the Eighth is just taken for granted as the final Calamity because the writers know they have no plans for a Ninth in any possible plot they'd consider ... Mezaya Thousand eyes would have foreseen it, and she didn't, so it's a hypothetical finality based on traditional Eorzean theory of elemental cycles.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

inb4 the Eighth is just taken for granted as the final Calamity because the writers know they have no plans for a Ninth in any possible plot they'd consider ... Mezaya Thousand eyes would have foreseen it, and she didn't, so it's a hypothetical finality based on traditional Eorzean theory of elemental cycles.

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Did she foresee the Eighth though?

Talking of which, we never did discuss the last Rising here, but I felt like maybe the prophecy that everyone was all "never mind, it was referring to a past event after all" about, might not actually be about the past after all... or at least describing multiple things at once. The beauty of vague prophecy, I suppose, but still.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Did she foresee the Eighth though?

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Nobody thought she foresaw the Seventh until they found it in a cave. As a tongue-in-cheek joke it could go either way.
Maybe we'll find the Eighth hidden in a jar in the mountains somewhere. "The Eighth will be a- oh, nvm."
Though I'm still not quite over the inconsistencies in how space and time work.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Talking of which, we never did discuss the last Rising here, but I felt like maybe the prophecy that everyone was all "never mind, it was referring to a past event after all" about, might not actually be about the past after all... or at least describing multiple things at once. The beauty of vague prophecy, I suppose, but still.

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Which Rising prophecy?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Which Rising prophecy?

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The Message in a Bottle quest.

On re-reading it, I think I'm getting mixed up with parts of other quotes, but just bringing it up for no reason other than to go "there's nothing here to worry about!" seems kind of suspicious.

Do we have a central reference for prophecy quotes somewhere? Game quotes, New Year's messages, Minstrel's Rising songs...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Do we have a central reference for prophecy quotes somewhere? Game quotes, New Year's messages, Minstrel's Rising songs...

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I've saved them all, but individually in different archives. I can compile them if needed, but I know one other person who -- that seems like something they'd do, lol. Let me ensure they haven't and then I'll start shoving together a collaborative document for the sake of posterity.

UPDATE: I've gone through all the bottles and there are no prophecies here?

- Six small and seven medium bottles from dev. team members thanking you in-character for playing the game and using the features they worked on.
- One large bottle from an adventurer "farther along" promising there's so much more in store for you someday (if you haven't completed any base games)
- Three large bottles from "background NPCs" thanking you for playing such a large part in their struggle if you completed it (Praetorium, Dragonsong War, Liberation of Ala Mhigo)
- One large bottle from Biggs, Third of His Name thanking you for saving their past and giving them a brighter future, and hoping you'll look after G'raha.

Speaking of the Thirteenth and Eden

Wasn't Gaia, the Oracle of Darkness who Urianger believes hears the voice of Zodiark, from the Thirteenth? I know she said she grew up in Eulmore but I could have sworn they said something about her being connected to the Thirteenth. I could be wrong though and misheard that.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

However, it's noted that the Ascians have "Made a void of the Thirteenth", meaning it cannot be rejoined. Would this not have had an effect on the plan, given that Zodiark can thus only be at best 12/13ths of his full strength?

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I guess they're just hoping that 12/13ths will be enough to power up Zodiark sufficiently to break free of his prison, at which point they can ask the Ancient God of rewriting the laws of reality to once again rewrite the laws of reality and undo their mistake.

I've thought of it as meaning the Eighth Rejoining would be the last necessary one, as it would be the tipping point at which Zodiark would be able to awaken. Not whole, yet, but whole enough to get the ball rolling on putting the star back together himself, without the need of Ascians orchestrating further Rejoinings.

As for why the alternate timeline shows two hundred years of this apparently NOT HAPPENING, it could well be that the Ascians screwed the pooch, as some have suggested - the Flood harmed the Source too much, and the Ascians have basically doomed everything. It's also possible, though, that Zodiark IS hard at work in the background, but the enormity of what he has to do is simply taking a period of time that seems lengthy to mortal eyes (but is actually quite small in the timeframe of an Ascian or a Dragon). Powerful as he is, he can't simply snap his fingers and put everything right. He needs to work at it over a period of likely millennia. Certainly, the folks on the Source would have been too preoccupied with their own problems to notice Zodiark happily chowing down on the remaining Shards, if they had any possible methods for noticing him do so in the first place.

Could a 13/14ths complete Zodiark repair and incorporate the Void? Perhaps. We simply don't have the knowledge. Whether or not it's useless to Zodiark, we DO know that the Void is useless to the Ascians. It can't be used to awaken Zodiark. As such, they needed to be more careful moving forward, and they do their best to avoid further Floods. That said, they don't seem to feel that the current state of the Thirteenth is a notable obstacle to getting the job done. It's only a problem if too many MORE worlds fall in a similar manner.