I think Square Enix should look into possibly using Easy Anti Cheat for XIV

Okay hold up just hear me out on this one before you grab your pitchforks..

With the most recent Live Letter, we've received a statement from YoshiP urging players to not modify their game or use 3rd Party Software which is what everyone should be doing in the first place.

BUT.. that won't stop users from ignoring that statement and carry on as normal breaking rules & being punished as per usual.

This is why I recommend SE try to seek out Easy Anti Cheat, they can offer so many perks and stop tampering of the XIV client in one fell swoop, weither it be reading certain information from files or editing information or even yet check to see if certain information is being sent to SE that it shouldn't be altogether.

Just think, with this software we can get rid of everything in one fell swoop and everyone can actually be happier where people are trying their best without numbers, ToS-breaking material or greasy simps getting in our way.

It'll be heaven where we can all dance around and be happy in our lives.

Jokes aside, I do find it concerning that they don't try to seek out third party anti-tamper companies to try and see if they can offer assistance in such a manner that doesn't impact us playing the game or them from doing their jobs..

Yeah no. Those programs suck and do more harm than good. When they break the game doesn't work, and since it's not made by SE they have to rely on someone else to support it.

Have you actually played a game that used such programs?

It's realistically way more trouble than it's worth, for both the game developers and players trying to troubleshoot potential problems. There's a reason why people hate Denuvo and its ilk and celebrate when its protection is removed from a game. That's not even an anti-cheat program, but something that's supposed to prevent piracy of largely single-player games - yet said games end up cracked within hours or days despite the protection anyway, while everyone with legitimate copies with the protection get to enjoy a marred experience from the protection running in the background and slowing the actual game down.

EDIT: I decided to look things up. There's no way you're actually serious about this. Carry on.

No security program is a proper replacement for a functional enforcement team (Which XIV is sorely lacking in, at least when it comes to cheaters who aren't painfully obvious).

The games I have played with anti-cheat programs were annoying as simply alt-tabbing out of the game was a potential trigger to make it shut down the client and people found ways to get around said programs regardless.

Please no, I played a game where it would kick you out if it detected you were using "cheat" programs.

I literally couldn't play the game when I had a frickin antivirus software or windows update running in the background because it would boot me out every 3 minutes.

anti cheat software are often inadequate in doing anything. Those software often break the games they're supposed to protect. They mostly only affect legitimate users.

Anti cheat program would also have the side effect of probably preventing people who use Linux from playing FF14.
While Linux is an unsupported platform it is possible to play the game on it right now. (And pretty well at that)
It would be sad for those people to lose the ability to play the game they pay for in exchange for a program that doesn't really work.

Just my opinion ^^

I'm going to get an excel file ready where I'll just copy paste the combat log into to get my results then.

No way I'm going to do this manually with a calculator.

most the time these anti cheat things just dont work or a bypass always happens

i know of a mmo(trickster online) what its protection ruined the game to the point to kill it for lack of players, and the devs never did attempted to fix the issue whit the program what suposedly rpotected the game, what it did?, make what the game was unable to reproduce any music or sound of the game at all, a huge letdown basically

Those anti cheat programs are rubbish and a waste of time they're literally the first thing any hackers or cheaters target and disable. only ends up aggravating and annoying legitimate players in the end and costs companies lost time, effort and money. Realistically all they need to do is take action against those who are basically being trolls and ignorant bellends and ruining the game for other people and thats it. Automated programs never have and never will work not to mention the litany of privacy issues some of these have provoked.

Anti-cheat just ruins games.

You know I've played games with those things if you have a firewall or have a exel document opened it prevents you from running the game those systems are always way over sensitive lol

They said it in the Live Letter. You can use Excel to parse the battle log!

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Originally Posted by 0xReki

They said it in the Live Letter. You can use Excel to parse the battle log!

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No, the anti cheat system isn't made by SE - the person above you is saying that one of the issues is that even EXCEL has been known to conflict with the anti-cheat software.

That was sarcasm. I forgot to bring the sign.

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Originally Posted by 0xReki

That was sarcasm. I forgot to bring the sign.

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Nah it's cool, my bad for not looking to see you had another reply before the one I responded to :)

If SE goes scorched earth, they will lose a lot of customers. Of course there would be a bunch of people on the forums going "serves you all right, cheaters!" even though maybe someone just imported a hairstyle or wanted to improve their own play, but you know.

That said, I do worry a bit that some addon dev will eventually push things too far. Like the TEA stuff that Yoshi talked so much about in the most recent PLL. Even if they don't bend to installing anticheat software, there are things they could do to break addons, but it would break all of them, not just the "black" ones.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

there are things they could do to break addons, but it would break all of them, not just the "black" ones.

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If their official stance is they don't want the use of addons, then might as well break them all or it might come off as being hypocritical. At the very least, they could try to break all addons that try to manipulate game data. It would be better than an anti-cheat software.

Am I misunderstanding something here or is there a large influx of "See see, I told you Parsers were bad!" threads and commentary when that wasnt what YoshiP actually said. Unless I misread the entire thing, his greatest criticism and "Dont do this or youll fined yourself in a six foot deep hole" was regarding third party mods that altered the view of the game (nude mods particularly) and third party programs that directly affected the difficulty of a fight. In regards to ACT and parsing itself, it wasnt a huge offense because at it's core it just takes numbers and information out of the available combat log and displays them for you and that the issue there isnt the parser itself, its the harassment that ensues (though I think that his opinion, while well intentioned, is a bit misguided but I digress). If anything, didnt he say something along the lines of "Stop being so overt about using parsers in streams and such"?

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Originally Posted by linay

If their official stance is they don't want the use of addons, then might as well break them all or it might come off as being hypocritical. At the very least, they could try to break all addons that try to manipulate game data. It would be better than an anti-cheat software.

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The problem is that any type of add-on prevention will have a tradeoff that everyone else will pay for. I'm not directly familiar with how some of the mods out there work, but based on the way those sort of things usually work—former game developer, so I've seen this from the other side—my take is:

• Preventing the hair/clothing mods could likely be done by forcing an integrity check on all game data on-disk on startup each time, but that would likely make for exceedingly slow startups. (There's caveats here, but the forums limit me to 3000 characters, so I'll just skip them.)
• You could prevent GShade/ReShade type mods which adjust the rendering (tweak colors, change depth-of-field, turn the game into an oil painting or a pencil sketch for screenshots, etc.) by coming up with ways to detect if anything's mucking with the output... though this would potentially also break in-game overlays for other tools like Discord, StreamLabs OBS, etc.
• You can't easily prevent ACT, Teamcraft, etc., by modifying the game itself because those aren't actually touching the game itself; they're literally just entirely-separate applications which watch and process data the game generates, whether as logfiles on disk or as network traffic between the client and server. If I understand right, even the waymark program that's caused all this fuss doesn't even touch the game; it just hijacks the network stream at the Windows level and sends the commands to place waymarks as though it were the client. So the only way to stop that is with the false-positive-prone anticheat software mentioned earlier.

You never want the folks breaking the rules to have the better user experience than the ones following them do, and unfortunately, going down the road of aggressively blocking external mods is a good way to ensure you do precisely that.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Am I misunderstanding something here or is there a large influx of "See see, I told you Parsers were bad!" threads and commentary when that wasnt what YoshiP actually said. Unless I misread the entire thing, his greatest criticism and "Dont do this or youll fined yourself in a six foot deep hole" was regarding third party mods that altered the view of the game (nude mods particularly) and third party programs that directly affected the difficulty of a fight. In regards to ACT and parsing itself, it wasnt a huge offense because at it's core it just takes numbers and information out of the available combat log and displays them for you and that the issue there isnt the parser itself, its the harassment that ensues (though I think that his opinion, while well intentioned, is a bit misguided but I digress). If anything, didnt he say something along the lines of "Stop being so overt about using parsers in streams and such"?

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You're right, but even parsers are not in the clear, just in the gray area where the official stance is they still don't want you to use it and refuses to have an official parser built into the game.

But yes, tools that go beyond parsing public data and into manipulating data is the real concern and will have more severe punishment if you get caught using it, or so they claim.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

The problem is that any type of add-on prevention will have a tradeoff that everyone else will pay for. I'm not directly familiar with how some of the mods out there work, but based on the way those sort of things usually work—former game developer, so I've seen this from the other side—my take is:

• Preventing the hair/clothing mods could likely be done by forcing an integrity check on all game data on-disk on startup each time, but that would likely make for exceedingly slow startups. (There's caveats here, but the forums limit me to 3000 characters, so I'll just skip them.)
• You could prevent GShade/ReShade type mods which adjust the rendering (tweak colors, change depth-of-field, turn the game into an oil painting or a pencil sketch for screenshots, etc.) by coming up with ways to detect if anything's mucking with the output... though this would potentially also break in-game overlays for other tools like Discord, StreamLabs OBS, etc.
• You can't easily prevent ACT, Teamcraft, etc., by modifying the game itself because those aren't actually touching the game itself; they're literally just entirely-separate applications which watch and process data the game generates, whether as logfiles on disk or as network traffic between the client and server. If I understand right, the waymark program that's caused all this fuss doesn't even touch the game; it just hijacks the network stream at the Windows level and sends the commands as though it were the client. So the only way to stop that is with the false-positive-prone anticheat software mentioned earlier.

You never want the folks breaking the rules to have the better user experience than the ones following them do, and unfortunately, going down the road of aggressively blocking external mods is a good way to ensure you do precisely that.

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I don't think they need to bother with tools that don't modify game data, except perhaps encrypting certain data to prevent data mining.

For those tools that do affect game data, they would of course have to be careful in how they will secure their data, but I don't think it's something they should give up on researching.

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Originally Posted by linay

I don't think they need to bother with tools that don't modify game data, except perhaps encrypting certain data to prevent data mining.

For those tools that do affect game data, they would of course have to be careful in how they will secure their data, but I don't think it's something they should give up on researching.

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If they really wanted to do this, I think it would be a lot simpler than most people realize.

It's possible to have parts of the running game encrypted in memory, and to have greater protections around especially sensitive parts. I've seen some other games do this when the devs, like the FF14 devs, really don't like the idea of scanning the players' computers. It can be pretty effective. And even if the community "breaks" the encryption within a few weeks, that would be plenty enough to kill its use in say, raid prog, and to make many addon devs give up simply from the effort required. And the FF14 devs could change the scheme every new major patch.

That's just one approach I know from having seen other games' devs do it. I'm not a game dev, so actual game devs may know of other alternatives too.

The downside is, well, this sort of thing doesn't discriminate. It really is scorched earth. And the more certain addons push the limits more and more, SE might feel more tempted to do something like this despite the community backlash they would receive.

Anyways I don't mean this post to say what SE should or shouldn't do (I have other posts for that), but I just want to highlight that SE's passivity shouldn't be taken for granted. With enough of a push, it could change.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

SE's passivity shouldn't be taken for granted. With enough of a push, it could change.

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That's what I think too. And they probably have already started thinking about what they will have to do when people ignore them and tool developers attempt to bypass any restriction they put, or they should anyway after making their stance known.

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Originally Posted by linay

That's what I think too. And they probably have already started thinking about what they will have to do when people ignore them and tool developers attempt to bypass any restriction they put, or they should anyway after making their stance known.

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I think you're right. I think this was their "last warning" because the FFXIV community can't seem to not do stupid things. I think this was them putting it out there so when they start tightening things and/or laying down the ban hammer that they can then say "we did warn you it's against TOS".

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It's possible to have parts of the running game encrypted in memory, and to have greater protections around especially sensitive parts.

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I've never used the problematic waymark tool so I don't actually know how it works for certain, mind you. But were I writing a tool to do that, rather than trying to read things out of memory (which will change from build to build), I'd read what's sent back and forth across the network. A waymark tool might watch and see a series of messages back and forth that are basically "Load Hades EX, connect to instance <whatever>" and then "Waymark A placed at this location", "Waymark B placed at this location", etc. The tool could keep track of this: 'in Hades EX, waymark A at pos1, waymark B at pos 2' and so on. And when you wanted to save the waymarks, it would save that data. Then to put them back, it would just generate the network packets to the FFXIV server as if it were the client: "place waymark A at pos1". So the server accepts the command—it's coming from the right computer, after all—and dutifully sends back to everyone 'Waymark A placed at this location' and everyone sees the waymark appear.

Now, you could probably break the ability to send the commands by putting a sequence number in the packets; if something else uses the next sequence number that the client was expecting to use, you spot that something else has been using your network stream and promptly error out, disconnecting the user. (There's other caveats there, of course. There's always caveats.) But the only way to stop folks reading the network traffic (for things like Teamcraft's automatic inventory updates) would be to encrypt the network traffic, which would have a decent amount of overhead and wouldn't even still be guaranteed to stop it; MITM (man-in-the-middle) security attacks are a thing.

Mind you, that's just a guess; I haven't dug deeply into the FFXIV network protocol. They may already do a sequence number thing and the waymark tool might be handling setting things differently. I'm speaking from the standpoint of "I used to be a video game developer for my day job, saw various shenanigans, and hear from former co-workers and various friends still in the industry about the shenanigans they see", and assuming these shenanigans are not appreciably different than many others.

At any rate, I think if SquareEnix is forced to crack down on mods from an engineering standpoint, writing things to prevent them entirely, it'll introduce new annoyances and inconveniences for everyone else, because that sort of security is never free. Not in that sense. So, y'know, I'd personally prefer they not.

But if the mods truly become enough of a problem to merit it... well, maybe that'll be the price we pay.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

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I mean, to be fair, FFXIV is software and software is infinitely malleable if you have the understanding to do so. If people really wanted their combat markers back for statics, it would be child's play for a 3rd party marker overlay to be made. Hook D3D11, extract the various orientation and position matrices of the camera, implement some kind of editor, and use something like the Steamworks API for separate, peer-to-peer networking without passing around IP addresses.

Square Enix encrypting their executable and process memory would be just another gunshot in the war. It wouldn't end - people would just improvise.

Heck no. Those programs are awful and often cause way more issues than they solve as others have pointed out. If it's not DCing because of a false flag it's lag. If it's not lag it's the program being so badly coded that it just decides to stop working. This is a can of worms you REALLY do not want opened.

Other than dps meters that empower a small number of d-bags to actively and sometimes vocally discriminate against other players, the bulk of the 'game modding, that actually occurs is visual mods that don't actually affect anyone besides that single user. Sure there's a bunch 3rd party meters you can install that will tell you very esosteric borderline idiotic things--like where the next aoe is going to fall, but for the most part its just junk that affects the individual user. What would be a better use of resources is trying to circumvent botting, both crafter/gatherer and spam/battle bots. The rest is eh.

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Originally Posted by Hakane_Mitsu

Okay hold up just hear me out on this one before you grab your pitchforks..

With the most recent Live Letter, we've received a statement from YoshiP urging players to not modify their game or use 3rd Party Software which is what everyone should be doing in the first place.

BUT.. that won't stop users from ignoring that statement and carry on as normal breaking rules & being punished as per usual.

This is why I recommend SE try to seek out Easy Anti Cheat, they can offer so many perks and stop tampering of the XIV client in one fell swoop, weither it be reading certain information from files or editing information or even yet check to see if certain information is being sent to SE that it shouldn't be altogether.

Just think, with this software we can get rid of everything in one fell swoop and everyone can actually be happier where people are trying their best without numbers, ToS-breaking material or greasy simps getting in our way.

It'll be heaven where we can all dance around and be happy in our lives.

Jokes aside, I do find it concerning that they don't try to seek out third party anti-tamper companies to try and see if they can offer assistance in such a manner that doesn't impact us playing the game or them from doing their jobs..

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Did Yoshi-P not say scanning our PCs would be illegal?

I'm sorry to inform you, if you think wiping out these programs will reduce the amount of toxicity...

...As if the player himself is a source of toxicity, not the tools he uses...

It won't be a heaven to dance around in, it will be the truest, purest hell once frustrated players start to make up incredibly subtle reasons to kick people for ANYTHING, as they do not know or cannot know why the boss is not dying. They will start an inquisition and not even the actual extraordinary players are safe anymore. I don't know about you, but I see nothing but darkness in your idea.

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Originally Posted by 0xReki

Anti-cheat just ruins games.

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No, cheaters do.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

No, cheaters do.

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That they do, but theres a lot of conflation between using a parser (which ultimately just collects combat log data) and using third party mods that affect fight difficulty. YoshiP did distinguish between these two facets. His concern regarding Parsers isnt about number crunching, its about harassment that he said ensues.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

No, cheaters do.

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The amazing thing is that they're not mutually exclusive

Both ruin games.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The amazing thing is that they're not mutually exclusive

Both ruin games.

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Cheaters ruin games.

Anticheat software that's forced to run as administrator ruins operating system stability and security.

Neither is great. (One is admittedly more likely to cause catastrophic data loss than the other, though.)

Anti-cheat programs are by a large majority causing more harm than good.
They can break the game and force you to reinstall it n stuff[and ffxiv has no file repair as far as im aware of so even worse]
They are scanning your entire PC[hello privacy?]
And they are easily bypassable as many MMOs who have them have proved to be.
I have a friend who legit uninstalled a game she had 'whale' gear on due to them adding an anti cheat program which searched her computer.
Privacy is important~

So no getting one is only gonna make things worse for everyone[Least those who actually researched them].

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

I mean, to be fair, FFXIV is software and software is infinitely malleable if you have the understanding to do so. If people really wanted their combat markers back for statics, it would be child's play for a 3rd party marker overlay to be made. Hook D3D11, extract the various orientation and position matrices of the camera, implement some kind of editor, and use something like the Steamworks API for separate, peer-to-peer networking without passing around IP addresses.

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This quite possibly leads to an escalating cold war between devs and tool authors, though. Folks start hooking DX11 to inject new "cheaty markers" into the game's rendering canvas, so SquareEnix introduces an integrity check and the game quits if anything is mucking about in the graphics pipeline; that shuts down the tool—and things like ReShade—at the cost of other overlays like Discord's, StreamLabs OBS, etc. So now you can't use Discord with FFXIV, and meanwhile the tools devs write their own video driver that acts as a proxy to the real drivers and hook the rendering there, so SquareEnix makes it so that FFXIV only runs on a machine where it can validate the digital signature of the active video driver, so...

It's not a fun path for anyone involved. (Except maybe the tool authors if they genuinely enjoy the challenge of finding the next loophole, which—to be fair—many software engineers do.)

To be honest, if they got rid of my ACT and of my mods, I would quit the game.

Now, I understand why it's officially in the rules. Because people can, and have, abused such things. People have installed mods to make other characters nude without their consent, or even worse, to make digital children do inappropriate things. It's a gross world out there. Some users of ACT have, as well, used it to harass others. I totally understand that. And that's exactly why they make these rules, so they can go after these folks who do bad with these tools and say "hey, this stuff is against the rules, we don't need any further excuses, you're banned."

But other people, myself included, use ACT to better themselves. Some people use mods to put their character in a pretty dress. I use mods to make my character's tail into a floofy fox tail. When you are using mods to affect only your own experience, and not to give yourself any advantage, there is no harm to it. And they have many, many players who use these tools for completely benign purposes.

They would be utterly foolish to actually go down a route to totally enforce these rules. So I'm going to keep using ACT to try and better myself, and I'm going to keep enjoying pretending my miqo is actually a fox, and if I get banned for that, then I don't want to be supporting this game anyway.

I have no beef with parsers or appearance mods if they're not being abused, but things like the AoE display overlay and bots really need to go.

Not sure what they can do about the former, but I''m not sure why it's so bloody difficult to get any users of the latter banned when they demonstrate painfully obvious and abnormal patterns of activity.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

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I never said it would be a good thing. I just meant that cold wars between devs and tool authors can and do happen. We should hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

So how exactly would this anti-cheat detect ACT?