[Suggestion] Parsing alternative, -Better-? Solution!

FFXIV desperately needs a way to inform players of their performance, and to encourage them to improve.

Parsing is very clearly something Square-Enix does not want to endorse. (I personally support this choice.)

So let's take a look at something that Square-Enix themselves have successfully implemented that helps give players an idea of how well they are performing.

I want to introduce the idea of:


-Time Champions-




In Final Fantasy XI, after completing a trial fight, players are presented with the time taken for them to complete the trial, and then the time of the player who completed the same trial the quickest, as well as that players name and the job they completed it as.

FFXIV could add this feature, to give players an idea of their performance levels, but take it a step further.

Once you complete an instance, of any kind, dungeon, trial, etc, the duty finder selections you used, would present your settings Time Champion.

Example:
If you queue'd in regular no setting duty finder pug, "Standard Time Champion" would appear.

-Standard Time Champions

(players who use duty finder with no settings selected, just random pugs.)


-Undersized Time Champion

(solo players who used the undersized feature)

-Minimum Item level Time Champions

(Players who formed a group and tackled the duty at minimum item level.)

Not only can this potentially make "old" content more fun and relevant, as this could create a sort of encouragement for player improvement and competition.

But this also is a form of friendly competition as there is no real way to berate players.

This also does not slow down progression, as say how maybe my other suggestion for instanced striking dummies would, or really have any negative connotations. (That I can think of immediately.) It also has proven quite fun, and seemingly been only a successful feature in FFXI.

Thank you.

This doesn't actually give the individual an idea of how good/bad they were doing in a group setting.

I'd still welcome anything that makes dungeon runs more interesting, though.

While I approve of the general idea, I can see a few problems with the specifics of your suggestion.

1. The fastest time is not something most players will or should care about. More likely than not it will be set by a group of hardcore raiders with a static, and will be an unrealistic goal for the average player.

2. It would measure the performance of the group, not the individual. A weak player would be boosted by the stronger members of the group and be left with an overinflated opinion of themselves.

3. The players who don't care about improving themselves will ignore this and will continue to join parties they have no business being in.

To be successful, the performance measurement system will need to measure individual and not group performance. This can be achieved in group content by measuring DPS instead of time. A solo proving ground, should one be implemented, will need to contain mechanics and not just a passive striking dummy. The performance measurement system will also need to provide a realistic and relevant goal. You don't start training for sports by comparing yourself against the world champion. A good point of comparison is the DPS required to beat the fight before enrage. Mechanics training would not be amiss either. And finally, to really solve the problem of players joining content they are not qualified to be in, the system can't be optional. As long as it's possible to ignore, there will be players who think their right to have fun trumps everyone else's.

This idea sounds worthless as a parsing alternative. Might as well bring mythic plus if this is your idea.

People would be bringing in only the best AOE classes, and the like, to rush through the content to get the best time. This would have no bearing on an individual's performance. Dungeon example for clarification.

As the others have said, it's not really a bad idea in a vacuum but I'm not really sure I support the idea as is and I also don't think it would really solve the parser issue. First, it would just enforce the "fast is best" mentality that is already hurting dungeon and encounter design in the game. Second, it wouldn't really work as a personal training system which is where the success of an ingame parser would be. It would be all about the group and individual players wouldn't get any feedback on their own success/failure.

Or a person could look at their skills, come up with a rotation based on that and not need a parser at all because they can tell how well they are playing based on their rotation.

I can't speak for everyone of course but I find it quite easy to come up with a rotation just by looking at my skills and not using any outside help to do so. Last time I decided to compare what I came up with, with a rotation a person who uses a parser came up with, it was the same freaking thing.

No ingame tools or third party tools needed other than your own brain.

You don't need a parser to come up with the correct rotation, but it can be useful in perfecting your skills. Some people simply find it motivating to see a number related to their performance and being able to improve it.

A parser can help fine tune a rotation on fights, and burst phases. The only alternative for a parser, is an SE supported parser. Nothing more, nothing less.

Speedrunning rankings, even for "casual" content like dungeons, is already a thing on FF logs.

Most people don't care, and still won't care if it becomes officially supported, and even if it was and people did care, there'd still be no way for a DPS to isolate their own performance.

If a duty needs a time requirement, it will enforce it via DPS/heal checks. Otherwise, it doesn't need it, so let the party decide how long they want to spend to complete a duty without a timer nonsense.

As for encouraging people to improve, there is already a mechanism for that: other people. It's just a matter of using that mechanism correctly as it's a double-edged sword that can discourage instead if used incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by linay

If a duty needs a time requirement, it will enforce it via DPS/heal checks. Otherwise, it doesn't need it, so let the party decide how long they want to spend to complete a duty without a timer nonsense.

As for telling people to improve, there is already a mechanism for that: other people.

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It's good that you pointed that out too, yeah. DPS checks are already essentially a time limit. Still doesn't let an individual person know if they're underperforming, though.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It's good that you pointed that out too, yeah. DPS checks are already essentially a time limit. Still doesn't let an individual person know if they're underperforming, though.

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I think the reason why is because they want group flexibility, so the party can carry weaker members along (within some reasonable limit they set). But there are times when there can be individual checks, and that would clearly point out who are underperforming even without parsing. If they want, they can always have more of these individual checks, but I'm guessing they would prefer group checks so that stronger members can offset the performance of weaker members.

At an extreme end, you can make tank/healer DPS a nonfactor in group content and make DPS actually live up more to their role.

Let's face it, you can't really help the playerbase improve when you (the devs) create a whole game where the design doesn't gradually become harder as you go along. In fact, it's the reverse. It's why people bail in dgns like AV because most of the game has pretty much killed all extra routes to any sort of difficulty whatsoever. It's also why when people step unknowingly into savage/ex, they get destroyed. Sure, you get told it's gonna be hard but let's face it, if you went from regular dgns which were a piece of cake, then you step into expert, which is also a joke, the warning just seems to come across as an affable notice at best.

Before we can start talking even about parsing, the devs either need to create, moving forward, dgn design that actually pushes players (which, tbh, the playerbase in general doesn't favor at all) or actually work at forcing "educational" gatekeeping features in the game. Examples of that could be: Intermediate and Expert Hall, Forced SSS clearance, etc.

Let's be real though: SE is fully aware they could do more but they also know their playerbase. They know if someone actually wants to improve, they have all the means (minus ingame parsing) to do it. That's why they'll never opt to force or even remotely help people ingame because they're also aware there are just as many people who actually don't want it.

I agree with there being some kind of DPS/heal check when 1st timers enter an extreme/savage anything & players having access to this mechanic whenever they need to sharpen up. I also think if you're looking for harder content to clear & wanting to clock other peoples DPS/Healing you need to join a static/ FC group with like minds. Parsing creates such a toxic environment in PUG raids- It's a PUG raid, you should be glad you actually just cleared instead of worrying about a someone else's personal "best"- I had a dragoon upload my PUG groups DPS/Healing after he personally grieved the group by constantly running to a wall to die after 1 failed mechanic (Spin Orbs, someone stood on the wrong side of West), which made the healers stop doing their thing, someone else would drop & it was a mess- come next PUG group, someone brings up the Healers "Grey" parse numbers. Parsing should stay outside of FFXIV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by linay

I think the reason why is because they want group flexibility, so the party can carry weaker members along (within some reasonable limit they set). But there are times when there can be individual checks, and that would clearly point out who are underperforming even without parsing. If they want, they can always have more of these individual checks, but I'm guessing they would prefer group checks so that stronger members can offset the performance of weaker members.

At an extreme end, you can make tank/healer DPS a nonfactor in group content and make DPS actually live up more to their role.

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Not that I disagree with what you said but I guess my point is, ultimately, SSS is better than anything proposed in this thread so far. Well, aside from just parsing. But for an in game way to gauge performance, nothing proposed here so far does any good.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Let's be real though: SE is fully aware they could do more but they also know their playerbase. They know if someone actually wants to improve, they have all the means (minus ingame parsing) to do it. That's why they'll never opt to force or even remotely help people ingame because they're also aware there are just as many people who actually don't want it.

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Indeed. As I just mentioned in another thread, they even made two easier modes for solo instanced duty in MSQ. So individual performance is definitely not a focus compared to group performance.

Can't help someone that doesn't want to accept criticism or tips on how to improve. In fact, if you let the game officially tell them that they're bad, they'll start screaming and asking for nerfs instead of trying to improve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Not that I disagree with what you said but I guess my point is, ultimately, SSS is better than anything proposed in this thread so far. Well, aside from just parsing. But for an in game way to gauge performance, nothing proposed here so far does any good.

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I still believe the best way is a party working together. But that assumes weaker members are willing to learn from others and stronger members are willing to teach others instead of people just treating each other as NPC on the way of completing a duty. But neither side has time for that sometimes and just want to the duty cleared and be done with it.

At this point, I'm just glad there are still people doing non-party finder runs that are willing to stick through multiple wipes without complaints even if they're not able/willing to help teach the mechanics themselves.

Any idea outside of just outright supporting parsing brings nothing to the table.
Parsing already exists, and will continue to be used, even if other alternatives are introduced. Even this suggestion falls short of what is actually wanted with parsing.

FFLogs already supports speedrunning, DPS tracking, and self-improvement tools.

A suggestion such as this doesn't stop parsing, it just wastes dev time on needless tools that we already have much better versions of..


If you want to stop parsing with an in-game tool, you have to convince parsers that the new tool is better.

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Originally Posted by linay

I still believe the best way is a party working together. But that assumes weaker members are willing to learn from others and stronger members are willing to teach others instead of people just treating each other as NPC on the way of completing a duty. But neither side has time for that sometimes and just want to the duty cleared and be done with it.

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That's more or less how it tends to go in statics. Some might be console players or they just haven't gone through the fairly technical process of setting up a parser, so those that have give them feedback and help them out. And in the case of ff logs, they can just give the non-parsing members a link so that person can go review everything in nitty gritty detail themselves.

Hey, sometimes people have even posted their ff logs link on this very forum asking for tips for improvement (and others just ask for things like rotation tips, etc). So, yeah, there's definitely lots of ways to get help if a person is willing to seek it out.