Suggestion to developers for end game

So I've been playing ffxiv for a looong time. Before that I played ffxi as well. Though I appreciate SE's attempts at adding different content like deep dungeons, eureka, limited jobs and such; I can handle a little of the cookie cutter approach to progression they have been doing if they made one change. So here is the issue for me, I enjoy end game fights, I enjoy extremes and I enjoy savage and stuff. I'm having a harder and harder time to motivate myself to do them because the gear becomes obsolete in 3-6 months. Thus, ultimately the only real reward is the glamour. Same with ultimate. I can essentially just buy crafted gear and do all content. I need some lasting improvement to keep motivating myself to do the new content that comes out. For example, on the normal raids and new dungeons I get new story. That is worth it to me. Extremes and savage need to give me some sort reward that isn't finite. So this is the problem I'm suggesting an improvement on.

I admit I haven't played FFXI for a looooong time, but I enjoyed that there was always ways to improve your character end game. Furthermore, the gear didn't really become obsolete even though they've done multiples relics now. As i said, I haven't played it in a while, but I hear that is still the case. And then there was adding additional points to stats or abilities once you got max level. Doing something like this would really make it easy for me to be motivated to do new content as it comes out. So let me flesh this out a little more.

I'm okay with dungeons, and tomestones continuing to just give gear with high item levels that eventually become obsolete. The dungeons usually come with story, and the tomestone gear can be used to hit the minimum requirements to do raiding, extremes and such. So this leaves us with raiding, extremes and the relic.

SUGGESTION 1 (RAIDING). Keep the raiding gear the way it is right now for the three stages of the raid. When you finish the final 12.0 of the raid and have the max raiding gear before the next expansion do this. Make it so that you can turn the raiding gear from stage 1 and stage 2 into items to further upgrade your stage three gear respectively. This upgrade should add some beneficial effect that will always keep it relevant. For example, you can make it so that the fending Armour gets a 2% reduction to all damage. Or can give the weapons a +2% life-gain. Or for dps the final weapon upgrade can give a new instant ability on a 60 second timer that only works while it is equipped. That kind of thing. Then on future x.1, x.3, x.5 patches (or better placed), you can get items that will upgrade the top tier raiding gear from old expansion raids to have equivalent stats to the new on. This will still make the new gear better for half the cycle, but keep old gear relevant.

SUGGESTION 2 (EXTREMES). This kind of goes with what I just mentioned above. Perhaps make it so that the extremes drops (or token trade in) the items needed to upgrade old relic or raid gear to be equivalent to the new stuff. That ensures that extremes are always worth doing when they come out besides just a new weapon.

SUGGESTION 3 (RELIC). First of all, what I mentioned above could be substituted for the reward for the relic or even they both do it. This especially works since raiding is more skill based whereas relic is more time consuming based. Furthermore, if they start doing new content or better stories like they did with Eureka, then the relic is almost there. Essentially I think Relic gear should work the same way raiding gear does with the possible extreme drops to upgrade the stats to be relevant, but the nature of the additional unique feature should be different. For example, perhaps raid gear gives stat increasing (like the % life steal or permanent regen) whereas relic gear either gives cool down reduction to certain actions/abilities or gear equipped only instant abilities and such. Basically make either relic or raid passive upgrades whereas the other will be active upgrades.

SUGGESTION 4. I would like to see something like merit points (I think it is called something else now) from ffxi put in. The idea where you can gain experience points beyond max level, but the points only go towards permanent upgrades to some stats, or cool down reductions or something. It would have to scale up a little bit for when level caps increase, but that can work similarly to the item drops from extremes. Furthermore, perhaps this experience can only be earned through certain content like 24 man raids, or deep dungeons or something. The key here, is make the bonus from doing this relatively small and a little grindy. For example, lets say you can use one "merit point" to upgrade any secondary stat by 1%, any primary stat by 0.5% or reduce a cool down for one gcd by 0.05. The first merit point is the equivalent of 10 24-man dungeon runs, the 2nd merit point is equivalent of 20 24-man dungeon runs, 3rd merit point is the equivalent of 40 24-man dungeon runs and so on up to a max 5 merit points to one upgrade. You can adjust those numbers as needed, those are just fast suggestions. Keep in mind the point is to be grindy with the stat increases. Furthermore when you consider most people heavy into end game have more then 1 job they keep geared, this would add a lot.

FINAL WORD: I only gave suggestions here. The main point is to make the "cookie cutter/formulaic" aspects of patches and expansions give permanent upgrades. So that say at the end of shadowbringers I have to decide between my 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 raid/relic gear on what I want to wear to that best suits my personality. Yes I know this adds balancing issues. Here is me retort to that. As long as you can clear all content with all the jobs, then having some imbalance is fine. Otherwise, just make balancing adjustments every patch like they are no. There will always be a meta and they can adjust these add-ons as well. An easy formula to follow is if any specific gear was being used say 40%+, nerf it. If any gear is being used less then 10% of the time, buff it. These are just suggestions, but it would highly motivate players like me to keep up with the new stuff, and newer players to go back and do the old stuff. Would also give customization which is the main thing this game lacks. For at least players like me, this would easily double my playtime if not more.

Merit points were merely a compensation for how FFXI's level cap was frozen at 75 for eight years and never increased until after Tanaka left SE - as FFXIV raises it's level cap ten levels every two years or so (when a new expansion launches), there is no need for such a system there. Maybe when we reach level 99 in 5 years or so, but until then I don't see it happening.

1: Honestly, I would love *expert* dungeons to feel like expert dungeons, they're hard and require good team play, not mindless tanking and spanking.

2: Make PvP its own endgame, I remember the old days in wow when you were a pvper or raider, both were viable endgames and you didn't need to do one for the other. I think the player base would enjoy that.

3: On top of harder dungeons, make them less linear but not ARR less linear, intuitive dungeon design would do amazing for better endgame dungeons, and given how we're only getting one now, this could be used as a form of difficulty over just making bosses outright damage sponges. Environmental aspects, crowd control, that could make runs so much more interesting and involved.

4: Raids beingess trial like and having all bosses in one run, not constantly zoning out and back in.

I thought the point of endgame was the challenge ....

What about doing a kind of content because you like it in itself and to help other people who needs it to finish it, and not for the carrot you get at the end ? For example i still do hunts and the two special ShB big fates, even though it has been whole months i dont need anymore all the things they give. Thats the closest thing you can get that ressemble world bosses, and i just like to hit them with numerous other players (plus it is always so entertaining to see so much people still dying at Mudman's attacks XD). Do you truly really, as you said, enjoy end game fights if all it takes to demotivate you doing them is the gear becoming obsolete too fast ?

But eh, dont get me wrong, i know very well a big part of the community is rewards driven. Just look at the number of people doing ShB fates now, despite fates being an all time despised content. I did never see so much players doing the previous expansions ones.

as long as the gear system remains in a vertical progression pattern OP will never be satisfied. you cannot balance the game around horizontal gear type bonuses. and if you didnt know balance is everything to the devs (even though it may not look like it in some cases). maybe when we are at like level 99 for years then the system might change.

Horizontal and vertical both have pros and cons. At least with vertical progression there's always something to work towards, even if it gets made obsolete every 6 months. With horizontal there's a chance you'll hit BiS in, say, HW, and nothing added in StB or ShB is better, so that's two expansions where you have nothing to work with.

OP, what you're asking for with gear already exists with the glamour system. When you boil down BiS gear, it's just stats. The glamour system basically allows you to slap those numbers onto whatever piece of gear you want so long as it is within your character's restrictions. Scored yourself a piece of i470 gear, but love your Cleric's robe from ARR? No problem. Glamour the Cleric's Robe over your new gear, and done. I find vertical progression along with a solid glamour system to be far superior to horizontal, especially in terms of keeping players motivated, or getting them to come back from a hiatus.

If the fights, story, loot, challenge, and ilv progression isn't enough to keep you motivated, already having BiS that you got from a 50/60/70 level raid isn't going to put your butt in there either.

New gear consistently being churned out is a very good thing. Even as it becomes outdated it increases the options of our available glamours. The YoHRa gear and 2B outfits that are so popular right now wouldn't even exist if this game worked as you suggest. That is an antiquated mmo style nearing on two decades in age.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Merit points were merely a compensation for how FFXI's level cap was frozen at 75 for eight years and never increased until after Tanaka left SE - as FFXIV raises it's level cap ten levels every two years or so (when a new expansion launches), there is no need for such a system there. Maybe when we reach level 99 in 5 years or so, but until then I don't see it happening.

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I can be wrong, but from what I understand, they still have it in ffxi even after they raised the cap to 99. The point is that it adds a reason to level that lasts. Its basically progression that doesn't end for MOST players. There will always be a few that get everything done.

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Originally Posted by Angus-Beef

1: Honestly, I would love *expert* dungeons to feel like expert dungeons, they're hard and require good team play, not mindless tanking and spanking.

2: Make PvP its own endgame, I remember the old days in wow when you were a pvper or raider, both were viable endgames and you didn't need to do one for the other. I think the player base would enjoy that.

3: On top of harder dungeons, make them less linear but not ARR less linear, intuitive dungeon design would do amazing for better endgame dungeons, and given how we're only getting one now, this could be used as a form of difficulty over just making bosses outright damage sponges. Environmental aspects, crowd control, that could make runs so much more interesting and involved.

4: Raids beingess trial like and having all bosses in one run, not constantly zoning out and back in.

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Nothing wrong with those ideas. I was trying give a suggestion as a possible reward system for what SE is already doing and seems to be okay with continuing. Which for the record I like them continuing.

It confuses me every time when people consider 6 months a short amount of time...

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

. Do you truly really, as you said, enjoy end game fights if all it takes to demotivate you doing them is the gear becoming obsolete too fast ?

But eh, dont get me wrong, i know very well a big part of the community is rewards driven. Just look at the number of people doing ShB fates now, despite fates being an all time despised content. I did never see so much players doing the previous expansions ones.

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There are lots of that people enjoy doing, but when trying to decide what to do, a reward does help. For example, if I'm deciding to do the new tier of raiding in ffxiv or perhaps play Nier Automa. I'll choose Nier Automa because I gain something at the end that lasts (the story). A reward would help me choose ffxiv over other things that I enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I thought the point of endgame was the challenge ....

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For many it is. But for others, the challenge is only worth doing if there is some reward involved with it. There are many different type of gamers, and one of the gamer types, there needs to be some sort of progression to enjoy doing it. Its the different between people who like linear (story based games) compared to those who like open sand box. This is an example of different gamer types. https://www.gamasutra.com/view/featu...a_.php?print=1

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

as long as the gear system remains in a vertical progression pattern OP will never be satisfied. you cannot balance the game around horizontal gear type bonuses. and if you didnt know balance is everything to the devs (even though it may not look like it in some cases). maybe when we are at like level 99 for years then the system might change.

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Never say Never. I often come accross ideas that I never though of that I liked, and I do enjoy the challenge of end game stuff. I'm merely giving suggestions that I know myself and many other gamers in my play type would enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

Horizontal and vertical both have pros and cons. At least with vertical progression there's always something to work towards, even if it gets made obsolete every 6 months. With horizontal there's a chance you'll hit BiS in, say, HW, and nothing added in StB or ShB is better, so that's two expansions where you have nothing to work with.

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I admit best in slot and meta is always a threat, but that happens even now. As long as SE makes tweaks and make content viable with any jobs like they've been doing, its a largely a mute point.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

OP, what you're asking for with gear already exists with the glamour system. When you boil down BiS gear, it's just stats. The glamour system basically allows you to slap those numbers onto whatever piece of gear you want so long as it is within your character's restrictions. Scored yourself a piece of i470 gear, but love your Cleric's robe from ARR? No problem. Glamour the Cleric's Robe over your new gear, and done. I find vertical progression along with a solid glamour system to be far superior to horizontal, especially in terms of keeping players motivated, or getting them to come back from a hiatus.

If the fights, story, loot, challenge, and ilv progression isn't enough to keep you motivated, already having BiS that you got from a 50/60/70 level raid isn't going to put your butt in there either.

New gear consistently being churned out is a very good thing. Even as it becomes outdated it increases the options of our available glamours. The YoHRa gear and 2B outfits that are so popular right now wouldn't even exist if this game worked as you suggest. That is an antiquated mmo style nearing on two decades in age.

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I used to agree with you on the glamour aspect and its an example of an idea I would never of thought of. But at this point in the game life cycle, there are so many cool looking weapons that adding another "pretty" isn't the same as character progression. A lot of what i'm talking about is character progression. Also to quote myself from earlier what you said is enough to keep many players active or returning. But there are also large group of players that it is not. There are different types of gamers and I'm trying to give constructive ideas to add a little horizontal progression for those who enjoy that.

there has to be a purpose to implement other than just "if players would enjoy that". there has to be meaning behind it. would it be nice? sure. is it necessary? no.

it's more likely a waste of dev time because it does not fall within their ideas they have about stats on gear.

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Originally Posted by Razard

It confuses me every time when people consider 6 months a short amount of time...

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In the life of a 10-12+yr mmo it is short. Less then 10% of the games life.

FFXIV endgame is glamour. And maybe some housing.

Sad but true.

Sigh, we just had this conversation a few weeks ago.

Hard no to any kind of level cap progression. Don't need to level to the expansion level cap only to find that half my job's abilities are locked behind a pointless grind timegate. This game has gone six years, half it's expected lifetime without any need for such a BS system. We don't need any systems like these for a least another five years and maybe not even then.