How in the *seven hells* did Martyn learn these spells? [BLU Lv.50~60 SPOILERS]

While I do understand him learning a number of blue magic spells during his travels, I simply can't accept him learning the Primal-related ones (without serious injuries or even tempering).

Especially Quasar, I mean...what?
Sophia was imprisoned in Azys Lla for millennia (only being released for her final defeat), how did he learn Quasar from her, exactly?

It simply doesn't make any sense...

Well, as the very Job itself he basically made up out of whole cloth (remember the whole reason the WoL even became a BLU in the first place was because the Limsan authorities believed Martyn to be nothing but a con artist hawking fake Soul Crystals to unsuspecting adventurers, and faced with arrest, you basically became his alibi and unwitting stooge), maybe that's the same with the spells? That is, he merely makes them up himself out of thin air simply based on imagination and snippets of info from others, which isn't too different to how the WoL is doing it too (I imagine Yoshi-P's alter-ego probably is a good (bad?) source of such stories and, well, we all know the Minstrel likes to make... 'creative embellishments' with his retellings of our adventures...).

I guess the best way of looking at it is simply don't think too much about it as always - like with how retainers manage to bring back old raid items/gear (like White Raven Fragments), a healthy amount of willing suspension of disbelief is needed here. ;)

Totems passed down since ancient times? Perhaps Primal moves aren't even that unique to their Primals, just the only time we encounter such moves is vs those Primals? Could you, for example, learn Eruption by watching a volcanic eruption, or does it have to come from Ifrit? Heck, I wonder if you could learn something like Quasar from a Sophia-Egi, or something like the Ultima Warrior, or even Ultima Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Sophia was imprisoned in Azys Lla for millennia (only being released for her final defeat), how did he learn Quasar from her, exactly?

It simply doesn't make any sense...

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I don't see any problems about this. I mean, there IS lore about it:

"A new tomestone discovered by Unukalhai contains records of ancient battles with Sophia─specialized data which will enable Azys Lla's miraculous reality augmentation technologies to generate a simulacrum of the Goddess at the height of her power. Have you the strength to overcome this challenge, as the champions of Allag once did? Enter the combat simulation, and test the limits of your might! "

He probably did just the same thing we did: He played the video game and learned the spell there.

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

I don't see any problems about this. I mean, there IS lore about it:

"A new tomestone discovered by Unukalhai contains records of ancient battles with Sophia─specialized data which will enable Azys Lla's miraculous reality augmentation technologies to generate a simulacrum of the Goddess at the height of her power. Have you the strength to overcome this challenge, as the champions of Allag once did? Enter the combat simulation, and test the limits of your might! "

He probably did just the same thing we did: He played the video game and learned the spell there.

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With the difficulty level turned waaaaaay down.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Totems passed down since ancient times? Perhaps Primal moves aren't even that unique to their Primals, just the only time we encounter such moves is vs those Primals? Could you, for example, learn Eruption by watching a volcanic eruption, or does it have to come from Ifrit? Heck, I wonder if you could learn something like Quasar from a Sophia-Egi, or something like the Ultima Warrior, or even Ultima Weapon.

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You bring an interesting point about alternate ways of learning those spells, but that still wouldn't explain how he'd be able to "mimic" the weapons/effects associated to them (like say, Ramuh's staff or Sophia's ribbons/orbs).

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

I don't see any problems about this. I mean, there IS lore about it:

"A new tomestone discovered by Unukalhai contains records of ancient battles with Sophia─specialized data which will enable Azys Lla's miraculous reality augmentation technologies to generate a simulacrum of the Goddess at the height of her power. Have you the strength to overcome this challenge, as the champions of Allag once did? Enter the combat simulation, and test the limits of your might! "

He probably did just the same thing we did: He played the video game and learned the spell there.

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AFAIK, only the WoL had access to that particular tomestone.
And even if that simply unlocked that simulacrum for "everyone" in the facility, it'd be too far-fetched of him to travel all the way up to Azys Lla and somehow managed to come across and defeat her for that spell.

This is sidestepping another key point: where do WE learn some of these spells? Specifically, Glass Dance, though there may be others I'm missing. The only place to learn Glass Dance is Shiva Ex - and Shiva Ex is just a story being told by the Wandering Minstrel. It never really happened. There's not even a computer simulation to use as an excuse. Shiva Normal never used the ability at all.

Best to check your brain at the door and just enjoy the ride. XD

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

This is sidestepping another key point: where do WE learn some of these spells? Specifically, Glass Dance, though there may be others I'm missing. The only place to learn Glass Dance is Shiva Ex - and Shiva Ex is just a story being told by the Wandering Minstrel. It never really happened.

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Actually... Shiva EX happened, all the ARR EX Trials had a "story" with Urianger leading the way. As far as I'm aware, the Wandering Minstrel didn't start fabricating content until Heavensward, and even then that was just for Thordan and Nidhogg if memory serves, Ravana and Bismarck were resummoned and the Triad has their own plot device for the EX versions.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

You bring an interesting point about alternate ways of learning those spells, but that still wouldn't explain how he'd be able to "mimic" the weapons/effects associated to them (like say, Ramuh's staff or Sophia's ribbons/orbs).

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I'm leaning towards the idea of Concepts presented to us in Amaurot, with something like the short story with Hades and an immortal fire bird really hammering the point home. Basically, the "concept" behind the spells (and potentially Primals, see: Phoenix) are ancient, and what we see with Primals like Ramuh and Sophia is the modern expression of them, the twisted shades of what once was, as Ascians might put it. That would mean there is potential for the same concepts to be expressed else where, by other means. A regular old enemy in the New World could simply draw on the same concepts as Sophia and Quasar, that would allow Blue Mages over there to have learned it that way. Obviously the whole "concepts" idea was just an in-universe way to explain reskins, but it works. Why are Living Liquid, Liquid Flame and Salt and Light all basically the same? Because they come from the same ancient concept. Same for Sophia and some as-yet unseen enemy in the New World.

Perhaps Martyn got a soulstone that wasn't empty unlike the ones we got, and one of the previous owners of it had fought sophia in the distant past

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Actually... Shiva EX happened, all the ARR EX Trials had a "story" with Urianger leading the way. As far as I'm aware, the Wandering Minstrel didn't start fabricating content until Heavensward, and even then that was just for Thordan and Nidhogg if memory serves, Ravana and Bismarck were resummoned and the Triad has their own plot device for the EX versions.

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Correct. The first Minstrel's Ballad was Ultima's Bane, then the Second Coil of Bahamut, Thordan's Reign and Nidhogg's Rage. ARR EX-fights are all 'real', a new incarnation summoned to be stronger than the last.

Back to Martyn: Well, he is the original Blue Mage and more familiar with the art of blue magic than we are. Maybe it's enough for him to just see or know about the attack to mimic the spell and he doesn't need to actually beat the Primal for it.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Perhaps Martyn got a soulstone that wasn't empty unlike the ones we got, and one of the previous owners of it had fought sophia in the distant past

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Doesn't seem likely.

The "Soul of the Blue Mage" crystals were made by Martyn himself, based off what he learned from the Whalaqee over the New World.
And even then, I'd assume it's a similar process to what SMNs do to get their Egis/Trances/Demi-Primals (i.e. facing/defeating their originals and/or attuning to their aether).

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

Maybe it's enough for him to just see or know about the attack to mimic the spell and he doesn't need to actually beat the Primal for it.

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Which begs the question: how did he manage to get around their domains unseen/uninjured and with his mind intact...

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

Correct. The first Minstrel's Ballad was Ultima's Bane, then the Second Coil of Bahamut, Thordan's Reign and Nidhogg's Rage. ARR EX-fights are all 'real', a new incarnation summoned to be stronger than the last.

Back to Martyn: Well, he is the original Blue Mage and more familiar with the art of blue magic than we are. Maybe it's enough for him to just see or know about the attack to mimic the spell and he doesn't need to actually beat the Primal for it.

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Martyn isn't the original Blue Mage the Whalaqee are, he just got the Blu soul crystals from studying them

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Doesn't seem likely.

The "Soul of the Blue Mage" crystals were made by Martyn himself, based off what he learned from the Whalaqee over the New World.
And even then, I'd assume it's a similar process to what SMNs do to get their Egis/Trances/Demi-Primals (i.e. actually facing/defeating their originals).

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If this is the case, his soul crystal could be different, maybe an actual Whalaqee one and not the new ones he made for others

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Martyn isn't the original Blue Mage the Whalaqee are, he just got the Blu soul crystals from studying them

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Well, yeah, but he was the first one to adapt the whalaqee’s cultural ability and 'created' the job "Blue Mage" from it, probably calling it that way because the Whalaqees liked the color blue so much. And while he created it as a business model it's possible true that he has already obtained informations or advanced techniques we haven't mastered yet or our jobcrystall isn't capable of. I mean the stone we got was just an empty vessel to record knowledge and we know of two ways to obtain knowledge:

1) like the Whalaqee did in the first place, by learning it from the enemy
2) by obtaining it from a whalaqee totem

So for every spell Martyn knows it's also possible that his stone either already had those informations when he obtained it - or that he got it from a whalaqee totem instead of learning it from an enemy.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm leaning towards the idea of Concepts presented to us in Amaurot, with something like the short story with Hades and an immortal fire bird really hammering the point home. Basically, the "concept" behind the spells (and potentially Primals, see: Phoenix) are ancient, and what we see with Primals like Ramuh and Sophia is the modern expression of them, the twisted shades of what once was, as Ascians might put it. That would mean there is potential for the same concepts to be expressed else where, by other means. A regular old enemy in the New World could simply draw on the same concepts as Sophia and Quasar, that would allow Blue Mages over there to have learned it that way. Obviously the whole "concepts" idea was just an in-universe way to explain reskins, but it works. Why are Living Liquid, Liquid Flame and Salt and Light all basically the same? Because they come from the same ancient concept. Same for Sophia and some as-yet unseen enemy in the New World.

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Once again, you bring an interesting point there.
But that would mean that no being is completely unique, if each of them is based around a general "concept" (thus, associated "repertoire" of skills).

Typical aetherial meta-physics...if only there were some Amaurotines around to shed some (further) light into those.

You also have to remember that we're not exactly duplicating spells. We're making magical imitations based on things we saw and how we interpreted them. Theoretically we could we could learn anything just by making it up.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

You also have to remember that we're not exactly duplicating spells. We're making magical imitations based on things we saw and how we interpreted them. Theoretically we could we could learn anything just by making it up.

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That's not exactly right. Lorewise we watch how they manipulate the aether while doing the attack and copy it based on those informations.

Not all of them involve aether manipulation in the first place. Nothing nothing magical about a gobbie bomb or a cannon.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Not all of them involve aether manipulation in the first place. Nothing nothing magical about a gobbie bomb or a cannon.

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Actually, they totally do.
In fact, most entries in the Blue Magic Spellbook say so (see: Bomb Toss or Drill Cannons).

I meant that the original 'spells' aren't magical. Taken directly form the spell book:

Drill Cannons: Like the physical drills upon which they are patterned, these projectiles excel at penetrating stone.

Bomb Toss: Of course, goblin bombs acquire their combustive force through the use of magically enhanced gunpowder, so mimicking this effect with aether alone requires no small amount of effort.

Goblins and robots are launching physical things at you, and you're making magical imitations of them. That being the case there's theoretically no reason a person with a good enough imagination couldn't just make up their own BLU spell.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I meant that the original 'spells' aren't magical. Taken directly form the spell book:

Drill Cannons: Like the physical drills upon which they are patterned, these projectiles excel at penetrating stone.

Bomb Toss: Of course, goblin bombs acquire their combustive force through the use of magically enhanced gunpowder, so mimicking this effect with aether alone requires no small amount of effort.

Goblins and robots are launching physical things at you, and you're making magical imitations of them. That being the case there's theoretically no reason a person with a good enough imagination couldn't just make up their own BLU spell.

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And then there's Sardine Toss.

"This aquatic bird just spat a half-eaten fish at me. I should manipulate my aether to create a fish-shaped magical construct to do the same!"

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I meant that the original 'spells' aren't magical. Taken directly form the spell book:

Drill Cannons: Like the physical drills upon which they are patterned, these projectiles excel at penetrating stone.

Bomb Toss: Of course, goblin bombs acquire their combustive force through the use of magically enhanced gunpowder, so mimicking this effect with aether alone requires no small amount of effort.

Goblins and robots are launching physical things at you, and you're making magical imitations of them. That being the case there's theoretically no reason a person with a good enough imagination couldn't just make up their own BLU spell.

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I remember someone mentioning that non magical classes still use aether manipulation to execute skills. So we still see aether manipulation, just execute it differently.

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

I don't see any problems about this. I mean, there IS lore about it:

"A new tomestone discovered by Unukalhai contains records of ancient battles with Sophia─specialized data which will enable Azys Lla's miraculous reality augmentation technologies to generate a simulacrum of the Goddess at the height of her power. Have you the strength to overcome this challenge, as the champions of Allag once did? Enter the combat simulation, and test the limits of your might! "

He probably did just the same thing we did: He played the video game and learned the spell there.

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He must be really powerful to defeat the ex version of it. Also if all is needed to learn skills by doing a simulation of it, then wouldnt this make it easier? Just give everyone a blue mage soul stone and let them fight against simulations and thus everyone is suddenly all that powerful.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Just give everyone a blue mage soul stone and let them fight against simulations and thus everyone is suddenly all that powerful.

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Well, that's exactly what we are doing here.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Doesn't seem likely.

The "Soul of the Blue Mage" crystals were made by Martyn himself, based off what he learned from the Whalaqee over the New World.
And even then, I'd assume it's a similar process to what SMNs do to get their Egis/Trances/Demi-Primals (i.e. facing/defeating their originals and/or attuning to their aether).

My apologies; I'd forgotten that ALL the original Ex Primals were "real" (I remembered Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan, what with the gruesome totems to explain their extra power, but forgot the rest).

Which begs the question: how did he manage to get around their domains unseen/uninjured and with his mind intact...

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Well, he's a wily one, so it's not hard to imagine that he'd be the sneaky sort. Maybe he swapped to a Gathering job and literally used "Sneak"! Intact mind is similarly not an issue, then; Tempering is a deliberate act of a Primal against a target or targets, and if it doesn't know you're there, it can't target you.

Again, Martyn himself doesn't need to beat them. We know that we can also learn spells from totems, right? And we know that all those Primals were beaten in the past. Now, wouldn't it be enough if the Whalaqees were around at that time, recorded everything they had seen and made a totem? If so, maybe Martyn had access to those totems when he was studying the Whalaqees.

From how i understood it there are actually three ways tempering can happen.

1: The usual way where the Primal does it on purpose, this being the most common.

2: The initial burst of aether when the Primal is first summoned, unlike the first this is not voluntary, notably this happened with Ramuh. Though in this case it's typically only the summoners who are affected.

3: Spending a prolonged period of time in an area heavily saturated with the Primals aether. Not really a problem in the short-term, you'd need to hang around for some time before hitting the point of no return. And some people are more or less vulnerable than others, presumably based on their own aetheric levels and quality of their soul, so that guy who can barely manage a basic spell without killing himself via aether exhaustion would get screwed way faster than the average person for example (So people like that one brother of the Thaumaturge guild group who could not join due to being too aetherically weak for it would be the first to go if you dropped him in such an area along with a bunch of average individuals)

That last one is kinda like a radiation hazard, except the body will eventually normalize and dispose of the radiation once you leave the danger zone instead of it sticking around and continuing to build up to more and more dangerous levels with future exposure. And the consequence of too much exposure is tempering rather than radiation sickness or cancer.

I believe there is a Sahagin beast tribe quest that has you freeing prisoners, and some of them have been passively tempered in this manner due to being tied up in the deeper parts of the area that Leviathan messed up. They shout something about the glory of their god when you untie them and force you to put them down. Meanwhile others of the same group of prisoners who have presumably been there for about the same span of time are just fine and able to run for it after thanking you for freeing them. So varying levels of tolerance depending on the individual.

I would assume Martyn, or any job trainer for that matter, to be on the upper end of the spectrum in terms of "How long can i safely spend in the middle of this Primals domain/Aether Radiation hazard zone before the messed up background aether messes up my own aether past the point of no return?"

Stealth would mean no possibility of the first occuring due to the Primal not knowing he's even there, the second ain't happening since he's not into Primal Summoning, and the third would require sitting around in the middle of the "Primal Radioactive Fallout Zone" for days like a dumbass instead of observing Arenvald and the gang disposing of the latest summoning from a distance and then buggering out. That would account for at least some of the Primal skills. I blame the Minstrel or the New World natives for the ones that can't be explained by "I stalked Arenvald, Fordola and the rest when they fought the Primal last time, then got the heck out of dodge after observing from a safe-ish distance and learning the skill that way"

But hey, that's just what it's looking like to me.

OK, well I finally got around to playing the new quests (partly at least), and Martyn specifically states that he traveled to Ishgard to learn the new spells he showed off, including Quasar... That is something of a wrench in the works for a lot of theories, although it's still entirely possible that he took an Airship from Ishgard to Azys Lla. So I guess I'm throwing my hat in with the idea that he simply got access to the Triad training program in Azys Lla to learn skills from them that way. Perhaps tweaked the difficulty. Simplest answer at this point, and it's not like hacking Allagan Nodes is rocket science (a drunk kettle maker seems to have no trouble with it). And Azys Lla is not under tight lock and key, we even have a whole dungeon in which random groups of Skypirates and an Ixali make their way there...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

OK, well I finally got around to playing the new quests (partly at least), and Martyn specifically states that he traveled to Ishgard to learn the new spells he showed off, including Quasar... That is something of a wrench in the works for a lot of theories, although it's still entirely possible that he took an Airship from Ishgard to Azys Lla. So I guess I'm throwing my hat in with the idea that he simply got access to the Triad training program in Azys Lla to learn skills from them that way. Perhaps tweaked the difficulty. Simplest answer at this point, and it's not like hacking Allagan Nodes is rocket science (a drunk kettle maker seems to have no trouble with it). And Azys Lla is not under tight lock and key, we even have a whole dungeon in which random groups of Skypirates and an Ixali make their way there...

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He could have had a talk with the Scions or Garland Ironworks and asked if they had seen the fights. I have no doubt Biggs and Wedge would have remembered the tomestones and shown them just because they wanted to see the WoL destroy an Elder Primal.

It's pretty clear what happened.

Phase 1: He decided he wanted new spells.

Phase 2: ???

Phase 3: He learned Quasar.

What's so hard to understand?