Advice...

I just wanted to solicite some advice from you all. Right now I'm torn between which I enjoy more.. my Machinist and my Red Mage. The way I see it here are the pros and cons.. you tell me who you'd prefer to play and which you'd prefer to have in e raid/dungeon,.. thanks!

RDM - Pros: Doing better on DPS now and somewhat mobile with a heal and a rez to
salvage groups in a clinch and look great with really good surviviability.
and now doing more DPS than Machinist.
Cons: still penalized a bit too much for having a heal and rez but I wouldn't have
it any other way, should be doing better DPS.

Machinist - Pros: ok DPS, very mobile and great burst DPS and looks good as well.
Seems to play alot smoother and cleaner, for me, than RDM.
Cons: for a selfish DPS job, they really should be doing much more DPS,
I'm hoping SE will realize this eventually and fix it. Only 1 semi useful
utility with the same affects of Shield Samba and others on a very
long cool down

Let me know what you think and before you answer, yes I have fun with both, but I prefer to focus on one. Also basically wanted to know your opinions.. thanks!

There is no class meta now that all DPS classes have been buffed and etc. I still find it hard to believe RDM can beat a Machinist with it's 50% proc on it's skills. Only question you have to ask yourself is which you enjoy playing more.

There is always a cls meta - just because u don’t need it atm doesnt mean there isnt „the one comp“ which beat them all. just sayin :o

I cannot tell you for certain as i also like them both. I hated Machinist up until this expansion, now it is actually fun. I do not play it enough to tell if it needs buffs and what not.
Red Mage was absolutely junk beginning of this expansion, thankfully we did not need to wait 6 months like in Stormblood for changes.

And yes for once i agree with Neela, lol. There is always compositions that is better then others.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

There is no class meta now that all DPS classes have been buffed and etc. I still find it hard to believe RDM can beat a Machinist with it's 50% proc on it's skills. Only question you have to ask yourself is which you enjoy playing more.

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Well I really wouldn't be, I actually, in pure DPS outdamage my SMN in pure Single Target damage. With an RDM you are literally talking 620 potency damage per normal Dual Cast.

The reason that doesn't hold in actual game is that much like with BLM... training dummy meets reality...

I may be able to do a ton of damage with RDM, but in actual Instance play... my SMN comes out on top, because while me and the BLM, RDM are running around dodging mechanics going "Oh crap, Oh crap, O Crap!!"... My SMN still has a good 200 potency worth of DOTs (+ pet) ticking away all the while... and can give pet commands for Egi Assaults resulting in Ruin IVs all on the move.

I would choose a job based on fun TBH. Pick whichever is the most fun for you to play.

If you play a job you enjoy, you'll not only have a better time learning the rotation and maximizing on dps but you'll also have more fun doing it in the process.

So pick what you enjoy and you'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well I really wouldn't be, I actually, in pure DPS outdamage my SMN in pure Single Target damage. With an RDM you are literally talking 620 potency damage per normal Dual Cast.

The reason that doesn't hold in actual game is that much like with BLM... training dummy meets reality...

I may be able to do a ton of damage with RDM, but in actual Instance play... my SMN comes out on top, because while me and the BLM, RDM are running around dodging mechanics going "Oh crap, Oh crap, O Crap!!"... My SMN still has a good 200 potency worth of DOTs (+ pet) ticking away all the while... and can give pet commands for Egi Assaults resulting in Ruin IVs all on the move.

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Not to be mean, but maybe you're not playing well your summoner in the first place. On a dummy SMN is easily doing 1k more if played well...

Uptime is a non issue at high level, every class manages 99% uptime. However what you describe is indeed of prime importance for someone who just wants to play casually though.

So to the author I think the answer is rather there : if you play casually, pick a class that allows you easy uptime and will less affect your DPS. In a 100% uptime situation, MCH and RDM currently have similar DPS (resp. 14k5 and 14k7, yes rdm is a bit better), but if you can't manage 100% uptime and for instance have to break casts etc, you'll feel weaker as a RDM.

I do agree that mch is almost a selfish DPS (way more than bard and dancer at least) and as such feels underwhelming. Not asking for blm/sam levels but a bit closer to 15k2 would be appreciated.

I find it comfier (and for the team as well) to prog as RDM though, his flow being quite laid back allowing you to focus more on mechanics, while MCH has wildfire and overheat to watch.
Although when raiding with another group with no RDM I didn't find it as needed as I thought, there are still evenings where we could have spared a lot of time (wiping where we wouldn't have with a rdm).

MCH plays great but considering it's only Party Utility being Tactician it's DPS is abysmal. I'm waiting to see if SE gives it just the tiniest of dps buffs to make it more appealing.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

Not to be mean, but maybe you're not playing well your summoner in the first place.

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I hardly think its me.

Any Summoner is going to be hard pressed to keep up 630+ average potency of single target attacks unless they're playing absolutely perfect with no DoTs falling off and always hitting every trance in perfect timing.

That said at present I'm only 77th on both Jobs SMN/RDM as I go through Shadowbringers and do not have Phoenix Enkindle yet, but I don't think its going to make much difference.

RDM will always be penalized for having access to Verraise (and Vercure somewhat, which is actually a decent heal vs SMN Physick). How much that penalty should be has been debated since the beginning of time. Lol.

Plus they have Embolden, which is a good physical melee buff.

So they really aren't a selfish DPS like MCH, which gives nothing to other classes (outside of a shared role Defense buff).

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I hardly think its me.

Any Summoner is going to be hard pressed to keep up 630+ average potency of single target attacks unless they're playing absolutely perfect with no DoTs falling off and always hitting every trance in perfect timing.

That said at present I'm only 77th on both Jobs SMN/RDM as I go through Shadowbringers and do not have Phoenix Enkindle yet, but I don't think its going to make much difference.

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630 on 2 GCD (5 seconds), so just 126 pps on that GCD "basic" spam. The fact the second spell goes instant just means it goes off at the beginning of the 2.5 seconds, not that it doesn't trigger the 2.5 seconds before launching anything else.

In the same time span of 5 seconds, also with the "basic" stuff a smn does :
- 2x200 GCD (ruin 3) = 400
- 5/6 of 2 ticks of both dots so 0.8*2*(50 + 50) = 160
- 5/6 of 2 pet autos so 0.8*2*(80*0.8) = 102

662 in total. So absolute basic spam for both does the same approximately.

If you want to know on a more global basis, RDM global pps, counting everything from melee to oGCD is around 205 while SMN is 220 (while both correctly executed). You cannot fall behind RDM as a SMN is both are executed well.

EDIT : because it's important ; I failed to pay attention to your last sentence : it is completely false. Like it was in Stormblood, SMN gains a massive bump in potency come the last level.
Indeed, between 72 and 79 it goes like that : Baha trance > Bahamut > Phoenix Trance w/o Phoenix > Repeat.
At 80, you add 5 second to the Phoenix Trance and, well, Phoenix, which is a Baha like.
It would be close from one another if during 72 -> 79, Phoenix trance allowed you to summon Bahamut after it, but it's absolutely not the case. So Phoenix is a complete gain at 80, twice the Demis in the same timespan. More gain than Scorch.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

EDIT : because it's important ; I failed to pay attention to your last sentence : it is completely false. Like it was in Stormblood, SMN gains a massive bump in potency come the last level.
Indeed, between 72 and 79 it goes like that : Baha trance > Bahamut > Phoenix Trance w/o Phoenix > Repeat.
At 80, you add 5 second to the Phoenix Trance and, well, Phoenix, which is a Baha like.
It would be close from one another if during 72 -> 79, Phoenix trance allowed you to summon Bahamut after it, but it's absolutely not the case. So Phoenix is a complete gain at 80, twice the Demis in the same timespan. More gain than Scorch.

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Fair enough,

I will check into it again once I get to 80th in both.
But as of 77th in both in equal gear, my single target damage is indeed higher for RDM.

EDIT: Oh by the way...

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In the same time span of 5 seconds, also with the "basic" stuff a smn does :
- 2x200 GCD (ruin 3) = 400
- 5/6 of 2 ticks of both dots so 0.8*2*(50 + 50) = 160
- 5/6 of 2 pet autos so 0.8*2*(80*0.8) = 102

662 in total. So absolute basic spam for both does the same approximately.

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I see why you made the mistake though... Your math is actually wrong here.

You forgot to include Ruin 3's recast timer in your calculation... the casting time is 2.5 seconds... and its recast is 2.5 seconds, so its 5 seconds total for the cast. You're in the same boat as RDM there.

You've only got One Ruin 3 in that time, not two... so you have to remove one of your Ruin 3s.

So you're only at 462 total not 662.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Fair enough,
EDIT: Oh by the way...


I see why you made the mistake though... Your math is actually wrong here.

You forgot to include Ruin 3's recast timer in your calculation... the casting time is 2.5 seconds... and its recast is 2.5 seconds, so its 5 seconds total for the cast. You're in the same boat as RDM there.

You've only got One Ruin 3 in that time, not two... so you have to remove one of your Ruin 3s.

So you're only at 462 total not 662.

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Sorry but that's absolutely not how cast and recast work at all.
The recast timer doesn't start ticking after you cast, they both start ticking at the same time.

Check this video for example, their cast bar is in the top of the screen. You do not spend 2.5 seconds casting Ruin III, wait 2.5 for the recast and then another 2.5 casting Ruin III. You just cast them back to back.

Can't go wrong with either cause their both fun to play, but for what it's worth I get happier when I see that a fellow party member is a rdm in content from lvl 64 and up cause that means we got someone to raise even if healer dies.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Fair enough,

I will check into it again once I get to 80th in both.
But as of 77th in both in equal gear, my single target damage is indeed higher for RDM.

EDIT: Oh by the way...


I see why you made the mistake though... Your math is actually wrong here.

You forgot to include Ruin 3's recast timer in your calculation... the casting time is 2.5 seconds... and its recast is 2.5 seconds, so its 5 seconds total for the cast. You're in the same boat as RDM there.

You've only got One Ruin 3 in that time, not two... so you have to remove one of your Ruin 3s.

So you're only at 462 total not 662.

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Yeah thats definately not how it works.... SMN is easily the strongest job in the game right now too at 80 just abtw....

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Yeah thats definately not how it works.... SMN is easily the strongest job in the game right now too at 80 just abtw....

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Well I don't see that at this level.

Right now, SMN is stronger on AoE, RDM stronger on Single Target. Both are still good at the reverse though.

RDM has Vercures, SMN has Stoneskin from the pet. So when I'm doing The Ivalice or Omega Raids, one can shield from pet to avoid damage, the other cures himself after being damaged so the survival rate is pretty similar.

It just comes down to which one I need for which situation.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well I don't see that at this level.

Right now, SMN is stronger on AoE, RDM stronger on Single Target. Both are still good at the reverse though.

RDM has Vercures, SMN has Stoneskin from the pet. So when I'm doing The Ivalice or Omega Raids, one can shield from pet to avoid damage, the other cures himself after being damaged so the survival rate is pretty similar.

It just comes down to which one I need for which situation.

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But it does. Mathematically, it does. You're just less proficient with your SMN than your RDM, that's what we're telling you from page 1. From 70 (just checked 5.1 figures in 70 content) to 80 SMN is supposed to be stronger.

You're doing less damage, and don't even consider you're just less proficient with your SMN than your RDM and go straight for "SMN is weaker" generality when it absolutely isn't. I'm not attacking you personnally but it is to stop the spreading of false information.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

You're doing less damage, and don't even consider you're just less proficient with your SMN than your RDM and go straight for "SMN is weaker" generality when it absolutely isn't. I'm not attacking you personnally but it is to stop the spreading of false information.

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Excuse me?

I do not ever recall saying SMN was "weaker". In fact my last post sums up pretty much exactly how I do see them.

I specifically recall saying SMN was stronger in AoE and RDM was stronger in single target. I said nothing about Summoner being "weaker".

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Excuse me?

I do not ever recall saying SMN was "weaker". In fact my last post sums up pretty much exactly how I do see them.

I specifically recall saying SMN was stronger in AoE and RDM was stronger in single target. I said nothing about Summoner being "weaker".

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You implied directly with "RDM is stronger in single target"
Its not.
There is both mathematical and gathered empirical data that prove this on dummies and on no downtime fights.

SMN is straight up stronger in a single target fight than RDM by about 7% on average at any skill level as backed up by the site that shouldn't be named E2 statistics.
(You may be ignoring completely Summoned entities auto attacks)

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

You implied directly with "RDM is stronger in single target"
Its not.

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Implied? Seriously?
You took it personally..... as if I was somehow making some kind of personal attack on Summoner, as if it was weak or something, when I said nothing of the sort?

The problem then is yours... not mine.

So far even Karshan has stated that the power boost in Summoner is specifically at 80th level. I did not dispute that.... but said I would look into it again at that level.
I said... I do not see that currently at 77th level as I had both jobs and playing them simultaneously through the MSQ with the same gear, and at present RDM is stronger in Single Target damage.

You just directly stated it was... 7% average at 80th level. Do you realize how slim of a margin 7% is? That means even ONE DoT dropping for a few seconds or missing one spell... and RDM will come out ahead.

You turned this into something personal when it was anything but that.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Implied? Seriously?
You took it personally..... as if I was somehow making some kind of personal attack on Summoner, as if it was weak or something, when I said nothing of the sort?

The problem then is yours... not mine.

So far even Karshan has stated that the power boost in Summoner is specifically at 80th level. I did not dispute that.... but said I would look into it again at that level.
I said... I do not see that currently at 77th level as I had both jobs and playing them simultaneously through the MSQ with the same gear, and at present RDM is stronger in Single Target damage.

You just directly stated it was... 7% average at 80th level. Do you realize how slim of a margin 7% is? That means even ONE DoT dropping for a few seconds or missing one spell... and RDM will come out ahead.

You turned this into something personal when it was anything but that.

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- "at present RDM is stronger in Single Target damage" : no, it is not. I do not know about AOE because I don't have the numbers, but from 70 to 80 ST summoner is absolutely stronger than ST red mage. That's not opinion you know, I really don't care (I raid as a RDM, have no favorites), it really just is about the fact there are measurements in the form of tools that must not be named (act and fflogs, oops) ?
- "how slim of a margin 7% is" : 7% is not a small margin in a MMO, and this one is no different. You spend weeks to improve a few pourcents power through gear. Again 7% might be droplet in a muso, but not in a MMO.
- "means even ONE DoT dropping for a few seconds or missing one spell" : such small mistakes don't do a 7% difference on your DPS. You'd have to be dropping dozens of GCDs or dozens of seconds of DOTs

Ok I guess nice time is over : you're presenting an opinion and stating it as fact by not using conditional or cautious wording. It's actually you who's taking it personally because you merged your opinion with data. The data is wrong we're correcting it, but since you associated it with your opinion you're having a hard time backing down.

I'm not asking "sorry I was wrong" kinda post, don't care, just stop saying single target RDM is stronger when it is not that's all I ask.

So while I like the theoretical debates and chats .. back to the subject of my original posting.. I have fun with BOTH RDM and Machinist.. BOTH do comparable damage... and I have BOTH geared at 460+... so given all is the same.. which would you rather see with your group in a dungeon or raid and why? thanks!

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Originally Posted by Seabhacgra

So while I like the theoretical debates and chats .. back to the subject of my original posting.. I have fun with BOTH RDM and Machinist.. BOTH do comparable damage... and I have BOTH geared at 460+... so given all is the same.. which would you rather see with your group in a dungeon or raid and why? thanks!

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considering you're asking i assume "fun" isn't a factor here, as in both are fun to you before someone quotes me to tell me i should let people play what makes them happy, so with that being said

dungeon ? whatever. things die too fast and are to easy in general, maybe giving it slightly to redmage here as that one could get up the healer if something goes awry, but realistically its dungeon content and way too easy with ilvl 460+ anyways.

raid ? mch as most groups will want to get the 1% buff (even though mathematically you would deal around the same group dps taking an equal smn/blm combo compared to 1 caster+mch) and mch at least can say its the strongest physical ranged, whereas redmage is dead last as far as casters are concerned, your group will simply have 1000+ dps more if you play mch and you take a blm/smn with you compared to a situation where you play redmage and the only ranged you can find is a bard (or to lesser extent dancer)

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Originally Posted by Seabhacgra

So while I like the theoretical debates and chats .. back to the subject of my original posting.. I have fun with BOTH RDM and Machinist.. BOTH do comparable damage... and I have BOTH geared at 460+... so given all is the same.. which would you rather see with your group in a dungeon or raid and why? thanks!

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Depends on group comp. But probably rdm. Rez mage makes a nice safety net in general. That shouldn't be something to rely on in a static group much, but if you're running pf with randos, or in df, rdm can hard carry with revives. There's a lot of stupid people out there.

If you're looking for a static group, I'd go with what they dont have to get the buff. No caster? Go rdm. No range? Go mch. They have both? Then whichever you most prefer really. You'd likely get better consistency with mch in harder fights.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

considering you're asking i assume "fun" isn't a factor here, as in both are fun to you before someone quotes me to tell me i should let people play what makes them happy, so with that being said

dungeon ? whatever. things die too fast and are to easy in general, maybe giving it slightly to redmage here as that one could get up the healer if something goes awry, but realistically its dungeon content and way too easy with ilvl 460+ anyways.

raid ? mch as most groups will want to get the 1% buff (even though mathematically you would deal around the same group dps taking an equal smn/blm combo compared to 1 caster+mch) and mch at least can say its the strongest physical ranged, whereas redmage is dead last as far as casters are concerned, your group will simply have 1000+ dps more if you play mch and you take a blm/smn with you compared to a situation where you play redmage and the only ranged you can find is a bard (or to lesser extent dancer)

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What 1% are you talking about? Machinist has -no- group buffs, Tactician only has a temp 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds like the Bard Troubador or Dancer Shield Samba. MCH only brings DPS, no buffs of any sort.

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Originally Posted by Seabhacgra

What 1% are you talking about? Machinist has -no- group buffs, Tactician only has a temp 10% damage reduction for 15 seconds like the Bard Troubador or Dancer Shield Samba. MCH only brings DPS, no buffs of any sort.

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the 1% mainstat buff you get for taking any physical ranged at all, which literally is the only reason to take any of them right now

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

the 1% mainstat buff you get for taking any physical ranged at all, which literally is the only reason to take any of them right now

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LOL I had no idea they did that,.. wow.. such good arguments for both.. RDM - safety net for rez, MCH - 1% and more consistent dps is what it sounds like it basically oils down to..

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Originally Posted by Seabhacgra

LOL I had no idea they did that,.. wow.. such good arguments for both.. RDM - safety net for rez, MCH - 1% and more consistent dps is what it sounds like it basically oils down to..

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you get a 1 mainstat buff for every role that is filled, so 1% for tanks, 1% for healer, 1% for melee and 1% for both casters and physical ranged classes totaling 5% (though obviously its impossible in a full group to have less than 3% buffs as you will need to have some kind of dps aswell as a tank and a healer)

the problem right now is that the physical ranged as a whole are a very weak role, and no matter how often people may argue that "no ones gonna replace the physical ranged" or whatever, mathematically you would basically have the same group dps or even slightly more if you take a smn or blackmage as second ranged instead of a physical ranged, there is however the matter of 1% extra vitality, the best or at least most universal damage reduction skill aswell as the fact that even with the changed raid dps metric on the site that shall not be named not having a physical ranged at all would actually show up there as you doing less damage, so even though damage wise it makes nearly zero difference if you grab smn+blackmage or smn/blm+a physical ranged it would leave you with slightly less hp, a somewhat worse damage reduction (de)buff aswell as making you look 1%~ dps worse when looking at damage rankings which is why generally a group will want exactly 1 physical ranged. redmage in itself is a totally fine class, it just gets totally eclipsed by summoner dealing a lot more damage while still offering the rez.

sadly (balance wise) this means if you talk raids than playing mch fills up the designated physical ranged slot (cant call it anything else at this point) with the strongest possible out of 3 classes. playing redmage on the other hand gives you the weakest out of 3 different classes (the casters), if it where just redmage+blackmage competing one could make an argument for the rez the redmage offers, but as summoner offers a rezz aswell this greatly dimishes the value of redmages rezz will completly falling behind both smn and blm damage wise

LOL sounds like basically, play for fun not for DPS and if you want to make an impact as DPS, don't play either one,.. go play Black Mage, Summoner or ANY melee dps, and I'm leary of summoner because it's WAY overtuned and overpowered for having rez and heals and is likely to get nerfed or at least needs a good pummeling with a nerf bat..and I'm just not even vaguely interested in any sort of melee DPS...

As a side note.. I'm sincerely saddened by the imbalance in DPS this expansion.. I wonder what they been smoking at SE lately..

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Originally Posted by Seabhacgra

LOL sounds like basically, play for fun not for DPS and if you want to make an impact as DPS, don't play either one,.. go play Black Mage, Summoner or ANY melee dps, and I'm leary of summoner because it's WAY overtuned and overpowered for having rez and heals and is likely to get nerfed or at least needs a good pummeling with a nerf bat..and I'm just not even vaguely interested in any sort of melee DPS...

As a side note.. I'm sincerely saddened by the imbalance in DPS this expansion.. I wonder what they been smoking at SE lately..

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that was kinda my point, if you would ask brd or mch than i would tell you right now mch on average is 500-600~ dps ahead of bard, (ultimate notwithstanding, but thats for VERY fight specific reasons and considering you "had to ask" in the first place i'm assuming ultimate isn't on the table at least right now) while smn is a good 1000 dps above redmage, at the end of the day any static will want one physical ranged even though the reasons for it are pretty damn bad (and damage wise even in the best case potentially a loss) so think about it like this

if you play mch and your static takes a summoner for the second ranged position (perfect scenario) you will have, given equal skill levels between the players 1500 group dps more compared to you playing redmage and your group filling the ranged slot with a bard (worst case) wihile the rezz is still on the table do to summoner, that is a huge difference

Dps balance is actual better than it has been for a long time. Smn sam and mnk may be a bit overtuned. Brd dnc slightly under. But the gap is actually pretty close. The numbers look scarier when you can say: "1000 dps difference" but percent wise the gaps are actually smaller than they have been in heavensward or stormblood iirc (now anyways not right at 5.0 release)

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Dps balance is actual better than it has been for a long time. Smn sam and mnk may be a bit overtuned. Brd dnc slightly under. But the gap is actually pretty close. The numbers look scarier when you can say: "1000 dps difference" but percent wise the gaps are actually smaller than they have been in heavensward or stormblood iirc (now anyways not right at 5.0 release)

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When an entire DPS class, Ranged Physical, is only taken for the token 1%, there's a problem,...

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Originally Posted by Seabhacgra

When an entire DPS class, Ranged Physical, is only taken for the token 1%, there's a problem,...

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That is an incorrect statement. For multiple reasons.

Easiest reason. If the 1 % didnt exist at all. If the duplicate LB penalty didn't exist the best team right now would just be 4 summoners. Thereby following that premise and your premise the logic suggests that you only take any class other than summoner because of the 1% and/or to avoid the lb penalty. Since we know that's not how things work we therefore know the premises are wrong. I.C. ranged physical is NOT only taken for the token 1%

People take the class because its fun. Because it works well with the other classes on the team. Because it makes fights easier in ways external to dmg, and myriad other reasons.

If bard or mch was within 100 rDPS of the best contributor and the bonus didn't exist. No one would bother with the difficulties of caster or melee uptime strats.

I play the weakest melee class right now. Why don't I play SAM or MNK? simple. MNKs gameplay is too simple minus the irritating minutia needed for perfection. and SAM bores me. or in other words. Simply because I like NIN.

The balance is the best its ever been by key point that right now NO ONE will get mad at you for whatever class you play. Some people might be happy to see a SMN or a SAM. But no one is gonna get pissy with you for playing NIN, or BRD, or RDM. and in fact in ultimate currently BRD outshines any other phs ranged. and the ONLY one who entirely leaves the dps pack is SMN.

Balance could still use tweaking. I would love to see a buff for BRD, MCH, and DNC. and NIN as well. I would also love to see a slight SAM nerf and SMN nerf. But if they don't happen. Big whoop im still enjoying the game and personally out performing most of them anyways. But to complain about the minutia when it's currently the best its ever been is stupid

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Easiest reason. If the 1 % didnt exist at all. If the duplicate LB penalty didn't exist the best team right now would just be 4 summoners. Thereby following that premise and your premise the logic suggests that you only take any class other than summoner because of the 1% and/or to avoid the lb penalty. Since we know that's not how things work we therefore know the premises are wrong. I.C. ranged physical is NOT only taken for the token 1%

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the whole point of the lb penalty is in fact to discourage exactly what you are describing, taking unusual setups and especially double classes which is exactly why taking double classes get penalized, in the same way the 1% buff is an incentive to take at least 1 per role, these (de)buffs are in the game to counteract exactly what you are describing would never happen if they wouldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

People take the class because its fun. Because it works well with the other classes on the team. Because it makes fights easier in ways external to dmg, and myriad other reasons.

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in what way does taking a bard make it easier on the group than taking say a redmage ? if you say "troubadour" i raise (pun intendet) you a rezz, if you say "free movement" than again, in what way does this make it easier on the group ? the group doesnt care if its "easier" for the bard to play some movement mechanic, just that a)it gets done, and b) how much dps the class offers after doing it. all casters are perfectly capable of fullfilling criteria "a" with ease while domination the physical ranged in dps.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

If bard or mch was within 100 rDPS of the best contributor and the bonus didn't exist. No one would bother with the difficulties of caster or melee uptime strats.

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melee uptime strats that may be true (but still gets overblown), however as the bonus does exist (and its a completly different question if the bonus should exist at all/if the bonus should actually elevate the group dps or just be enough so dps stays about the same when taking a weaker dps class) this issue gets mitigated quite heavily, if phys ranged+melee did the exact same damage you would still take 1 melee for the buff.

the real question is would you take a second, at this point fight design would come in and how hard uptime strats are, if not doing them cost your one melee 500 dps while being of easy-medium level complexity to do it you would allready be doing them either way and most likely a second melee wouldn't add another layer of difficulty to performing them, if they were simply to hard to do/costing to little for not doing them thats in the end a fight design question and just means fights should be more varied in that regard playing to different classes strengths.

on the "difficulties of casters" again, what difficultys does taking a caster pose for the group ? not for the caster, the group. If it does pose difficulty for the caster okay, lets humor that thought, why play caster than ? oh yea, lets take your very own next words...

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

I play the weakest melee class right now. Why don't I play SAM or MNK? simple. MNKs gameplay is too simple minus the irritating minutia needed for perfection. and SAM bores me. or in other words. Simply because I like NIN.

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that exact reasoning can be applied to playing a caster, you play a caster instead of a physical ranged because you like the gameplay, you simply feel better going Explooooooosion instead of sending arrow after arrow into your enemy, YOU like the "challenge", you want the 300 extra dps you can get at the absolute top (thats the funny part, whenever someone says "phys ranged are x below casters/melee" they generally take somewhere in the 75-95 ranged, all casters/melee gain another 150-300 dps on the physical ranged just going from 95-99 and literally no one argues against that gap because everyone understands that this is needed as the absolute top gap otherwise phys ranged would dominate in the moment of slightest movement).

also, to go back to your original point on why you play nin, good on you ? no one ever denied you that, but you yourself said

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Balance could still use tweaking. I would love to see a buff for BRD, MCH, and DNC. and NIN as well. I would also love to see a slight SAM nerf and SMN nerf. But if they don't happen. Big whoop im still enjoying the game and personally out performing most of them anyways. But to complain about the minutia when it's currently the best its ever been is stupid

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the difference between nin and samurai (the highest melee) is HALF as big as the difference between bard and nin, not bard and the top, bard and the class you think is too weak,if only slightly, your "big whoop, i'm still outperforming them" is exactly the point, all you need to do is be slightly better than your competition, than you are top, like you being a 85% player while the rest is on the 75% level. to outperform literally anyone on a physical ranged is close to impossible no matter the fight unless the other guys suck so hard it isn't funny, the only "non physical ranged" realistically reachable is redmage, and that one is undertuned (yes, summoner is also simply overtuned but that doesn't mean redmage couldn't use another 400 dps on top of bringing summoner 300 down)

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

The balance is the best its ever been by key point that right now NO ONE will get mad at you for whatever class you play. Some people might be happy to see a SMN or a SAM. But no one is gonna get pissy with you for playing NIN, or BRD, or RDM. and in fact in ultimate currently BRD outshines any other phs ranged. and the ONLY one who entirely leaves the dps pack is SMN.

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BRD outshnines the other physical ranged in ultimate for extremly fight specific reasons which are not likely (read, we didn't have something like this in 3 years or so) to translate into any other fight, and while i'm even in the boat of "find ways to nerf bards 2 target potency while getting up their single target power" even if its ultimate you should balance classes around an average of fights, not one in particular , otherwise you may aswell balance smn on e1s data alone for example.



i raid with pf, exclusively with party finder, yes people very much will get mad with you, and even if they do take you and are willing to make it work, mentallity wise whenever an average brd joins the thought process for everyone is "oh well, lets give it a try or two, but if its tight lets just replace him" whereas if a barely green summoner/Samurai joins its like "oh well, its a Smn/Sam, yea they suck ass but so what, they still do more than another phys ranged would offer.

Groups are happy when they get an average summoner and sigh when they get an average redmage, they may not kick you (and exclusions very much do happen allready) but as someone who does this shit with a different set of people every week let me tell you, yes people do get "mad" at you for playing the "wrong" class and the mentality very much is "take at least 2 ranges for mechanics. don't give a damn if you take take a second melee or an extra smn/blackmage,both work. never take a second physical ranged unless you are allready looking for half and hour and people start to get restless. if you absolutely have to take a second physical ranged make sure s/he is good, if you got 2 barely green physical ranged you don't need to pull". and yes, bad/average physical ranged get booted WAY faster than a bad top tier class.

the very best you may get out of getting a bard or whatever is a "oh well, at least hes a good bard" while bad bards get the boot half the time if they weren't excluded beforehand, the worst feelings a summoner will give the group are "well, at least he's a summoner" while "yeay, that guy is so great, we can die 5 times and still make it" is the top end.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

in what way does taking a bard make it easier on the group than taking say a redmage ? if you say "troubadour" i raise (pun intendet) you a rezz, if you say "free movement" than again, in what way does this make it easier on the group ? the group doesnt care if its "easier" for the bard to play some movement mechanic, just that a)it gets done, and b) how much dps the class offers after doing it. all casters are perfectly capable of fullfilling criteria "a" with ease while domination the physical ranged in dps.

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Well honestly, if troubadour prevents death, that is superior to rez. Also as far as range physical vs rdm in particular, rdm can be annoying on certain fights with their melee phase, forcing them to either lose damage, or get melee clustered on phases its preferable to have ranged/casters far away. Also ranged mobility does make certain bait mechanics easier, but we haven't really seen fights in shadow bringers that have those mechanics like in stormblood. Range mobility should however make a range job far more adaptable to different strategies if you end up subbing in other groups, which is a large quality of life factor. And the fact that they should have zero issue with positioning consistency can be a factor why a group would want them, as groups often prefer consistency above all else unless you're talking about speed running.

Also the only caster that can fully fulfill the type of movement a ranged can do while still holding much more damage is smn, but smn is a Mary Sue bs job after this patch, just as it was all last expansion.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Well honestly, if troubadour prevents death, that is superior to rez. Also as far as range physical vs rdm in particular, rdm can be annoying on certain fights with their melee phase, forcing them to either lose damage, or get melee clustered on phases its preferable to have ranged/casters far away. Also ranged mobility does make certain bait mechanics easier, but we haven't really seen fights in shadow bringers that have those mechanics like in stormblood. Range mobility should however make a range job far more adaptable to different strategies if you end up subbing in other groups, which is a large quality of life factor. And the fact that they should have zero issue with positioning consistency can be a factor why a group would want them, as groups often prefer consistency above all else unless you're talking about speed running.

Also the only caster that can fully fulfill the type of movement a ranged can do while still holding much more damage is smn, but smn is a Mary Sue bs job after this patch, just as it was all last expansion.

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and if someone stands in shit and gets oneshotted troubadour wouldn't have done anything and the redmage rezz now has a use? if the attack is magical and the boss can be targeted beforehand the caster can do addle and reduce the damage for the same amount on a shorter cooldown ? i never said troubadour is worthless, but neither is rezz, and "but preventing death is better than "correcting" it only holds true if both scenarios where mutially exclusive, or given the tools we have even necessarely linked at all, they aren't.Also what type of movement while holding the same damage as a ranged ? redmage, the weakest caster and one which i allready stated believe to be undertuned still is above mch at the 90+ range, and above every other physical ranged until 40% , you don't think every 5th rdm (so everything above 80-90 which is the range where mch/rdm are the most equal) has a 2 more ranged with him so s/he doesn't need to do these mechanics ? as it is even the weakest caster IS holding the same damage as the strongest physical ranged, movement be damned, and that caster is undertuned. i fully agree that fights as they currently are should not see physical ranged at the top, but thats the other thing, fight design.

As it stands even with an extremly melee unfriendly fight, which we don't even have you could simply not give a damn about uptime strats and melee would still be equal or more likely on top, with more balanced fights (and more balanced classes cause the current discrepancy doesn't even fully close the gap in ultimate where realistically you should still rather compare mch with the rest of the classes, yes dnc/brd are stronger than mch there, but that is do to the very specific fight design of having 2 adds for half the fight, not do to ease of movement and as we didn't have a fight with a constant 2 targets you could actually multi dot and tank together for half the fight in years i wouldn't assume such a kind of fight to come back anytime soon, the simple "have to deal more mechanics, but also an easier time to do them" aspect not even in ultimate manages to let even mch catch up to the other classes, thats how little "free movement" really is worth.)

with more balanced (in the sense of heavy movement/light movement/special strats for uptime really required or boiling down to "let the melee take the spot closest to the boss?") you could have a situation where (lets for simplicitys sake act like all classes in a role deal exactly equal dps and other buffs aside from damage don't exist, just so it can be boiled down to a numbers question)



caster and melee deal 15k in the low movement fight where uptime strats also mostly consist of "let the melee take the spot closest to the boss" while phys ranged do 14.750. (say thats 1/4 of the fights)

a fight where mechanics need to be baited in a way where the phys ranged still do 14.750, casters would drop to 14,500 or at least have a really hard time keeping the same as the phys ranged/topping it at maybe slightly at the absolute top end (99% here, not 95%) and melee stay unaffected by the mechanics unless you got less than 2 ranged doing them (lets make this 2/4 of the fights)

a fourth fight where bait mechanics or general movement is so seldom used the physical ranged keep their 14,750, the casters drop maybe to 14,900 but the melees get bend over backwards by some sort of mechanic that they now either drop to 14,250 dps OR the group has to do extra legwork for some harder uptime strats leaving them with the potential to still be top but requiring extra work, or in this case taking the punishment and being weaker in this 1 out of 4 fights.

of course it never works out that perfectly, not even all melees are equal and their indeed is more to a class than pure dps, but as this here is a "how much dps is movement worth" question as well as a theoretical question boiling it down to just movement while having perfected balance is easier than giving a value to every rezz, addle, troubadour or mantra so lets just act like these don't exist for once and dps between classes would end up perfectly where the design wants them to at this point, now phys ranged would be the most consistent but never the absolute top while caster/melee would battle for the top with the tradeoff off being less consistent and actually on the bottom depending on the fight, problem is we didn't have any high movement/keeping uptime is actually hard fight during the whole savage tier so far (thats fight design fail) but looking at ultimate numbers even with heavier movement and more complex mechanics the gap is still to big to truly close/swing in the favor of the phys ranged in a fight that does literally everything that can be done to accommodate them which than is a pure class balance fail.

Honestly as it stands in this ultimate, preventing death is far superior to the rez. And I believe you're underestimating the value of troubadour and other ranged damage reduction abilities in comparison to addle. There are many times the damage source is untargetable in this expansion, even some of the boss's casts deal damage from an outside source that targeted mitigation will not affect. Then there's other party qol aspects bard brings, like the cleanse and minne. Idk if you want to look at a broad spectrum of fights or focus on this current ultimate, but in this current ultimate the ranged mitigation is amazing, and the bard being able to self cleanse gives healers a little more breathing room. Ranged are a bit far behind in damage, but their tools add great value. Maybe not enough on a lot of fights, but there are a few where it almost feels needed.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Honestly as it stands in this ultimate, preventing death is far superior to the rez. And I believe you're underestimating the value of troubadour and other ranged damage reduction abilities in comparison to addle. There are many times the damage source is untargetable in this expansion, even some of the boss's casts deal damage from an outside source that targeted mitigation will not affect. Then there's other party qol aspects bard brings, like the cleanse and minne. Idk if you want to look at a broad spectrum of fights or focus on this current ultimate, but in this current ultimate the ranged mitigation is amazing, and the bard being able to self cleanse gives healers a little more breathing room.

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the cleanse which also hasn't worked on absolutely anything before this ultimate, it may very well be awesome there, it is however still a way (and i mean WAY) to circumstantial skill. and troubadour in general i'm not saying isn't better than addle, i'm asking (again, fights in general) if its better than addle+a rezz and if so by how much, especially as chances are you will neither need troubadour nor addle if things go smoothly at least outside ultimate.

the original question was "mch or redmage" to that i say mch cause that indeed is the strongest physical ranged whereas redmage right now is the weakest caster (if you say the rezz is worth enough to offset the dps loss compared to taking a blackmage i would disagree but thats another discussion alltogether, the fact smn so far eclipses redmage however is just a given fact, at least for the moment and that extremly devalues anything redmage offers), again preventing deaths and getting a person back up after they went down are not mutually exclusive, i'm not arguing that for ultimate specifically brd isn't the better choice compared to mch, but that never really was the original question asked, that which was redmage or mch, someone that has to ask that on the official forum most likely isn't aiming for ultimate at least right now (and both sadly suck there....) so to that i answered the original question with "you WILL want 1 phys ranged, make the group happy and fill that slot with the best physical ranged possible" the rest of what i wrote down was very much intentionally disregarding things like troubadour, addle or rezz, as i've said multiple times i try to look at an average of fights and also just wanted to give a general idea how classes can be weaker in certain fights, better in others, "equal" overall, of course in practice things like better buffs/debuffs come into this equation but that gets way to hard to quantify at least for simply illustrating a point. ultimate specifically i just pointed out because its the one outlier as far as the "mch is the best phys ranged" goes, however as this is for the fact that the fight literally bends over backwards to play to bards (and to lesser extents dancers) strengths someone thats not aiming for ultimate for the time being should most likely disregard as it simply does not translate into anything we had in years, sure the next raid tier may have 2 adds for half the fight in every single encounter, but i would assume chances for that are very slim

Well, if it's for somebody new to savage, I feel I'd still recommend mch over rdm still. For the simple reason that fights are easier for an individual to learn on a range class over a rdm, and if you aren't used to rdm in a more stressful environment, there's going to be a lot of backflips into the abyss on some of the fights, and missed gcds if you aren't good at slide casting when you dont have dual cast. Rdm would certainly help a new group learn the fights and prog faster if your whole group is iffy, or it's a new tier, but if you yourself need experience more I think it would be much easier to learn on a ranged job.

I feel that groups recruiting wouldn't be locking out the job based on what job it is, but rather on what they're lacking. Smn is popping off right now, so you can expect casters to be more plentiful and thus groups needing a range job for the buff. The party having a smn means they also already have a dps raise. 2 dps raisers is useful as well, but almost overkill. I feel most groups wouldn't mind either of them, at least I wouldn't.