Need some Tenacity math..

Hello,

I couldn't find any Info on this or I haven't searched very well. Hope any of you can do some math for me.
It's about the old question: What amount of Tenacity does what and do you even profit from higher values anyhow now in 5.x?

If anyone could spread some knowledge, that would be great. :)

Check http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/ for Tenacity breakpoints.

This is... wow.. nothing.
So, long story short, Tenacity is still useless at least compared to the other stats and should be avoided like STDs... ^^

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Originally Posted by SayoTharonel

So, long story short, Tenacity is still useless at least compared to the other stats and should be avoided like STDs... ^^

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No.

Tenacity is essentially worse Determination. If you're okay with sacrificing a little bit of DPS for a little bit of passive mitigation, then go for it. There are also times where melding Tenacity will give greater returns on DPS than a Determination meld due to stat breakpoints, but that's really only relevant to WAR.

I will say, however, that melding Tenacity for mitigation is highly unnecessary at current gear levels, so I would recommend against it unless you're planning on doing Ultimate.

In defense of Tenacity, it does do more Damage than Skill Speed since Skill Speed only affects GCD and DoT, and having a 15-20% faster GCD can go a long way on certain jobs, but only MNK, SAM, and BLM have haste effects in their toolkit, and because tanks and healers do not have access to haste related skills, Skill Speed becomes even more undesirable at lower ilvls so it is more of an early ilvl thing that Tenacity is better but it's only good at 5-6% damage increases otherwise you risk losing more DPS from other stats like Crit. Hit and Determination.


Direct Hit doesn't seem to become a viable choice on tanks until after the second or third raid tiers but this is more due to balancing issues that could have easily been avoided with just by having the rate of Direct Hits scale with the Crit. Hit stat, but Direct Hits needed to replace accuracy for some reason...


I would have been perfectly okay with Accuracy being buffed to were it is a DPS gain because it gave a Direct Hit rate, though this would mean every single piece of gear would have needed accuracy because of not having enough accuracy like how tanks needed strength on every single piece of tank accessory because they weren't doing enough damage to clear, so there is that argument if you need it...

Its more useful than you think but still not great.

E.G with 2.4k Tenacity instead of 2.4k Det. You would have 6.1% damage and mitigation instead of 8.1% damage, so for roughly 2.1% less damage done you take up 6.1% less damage.

So not great to focus on, but don't be too mad to have some on your gear its not that awful.

Tenacity isn't bad to have, it's just not as good regarding DPS.

(Also just to correct something, WHM does have one Haste skill)

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Originally Posted by Lodi

Tenacity isn't bad to have, it's just not as good regarding DPS.

(Also just to correct something, WHM does have one Haste skill)

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Oh sh*t, you're right! I forgot about Presence of Mind!

So WHM, BLM, NIN, MNK, SAM, and maybe SMN and MCH(because of Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance and Heat Blast due to how they work) have access to haste but none of the tanks and Physical Ranged do not have access to haste, so at least 1 tank need to have access to some form of haste...



EDIT: WAR Fell Cleaves and Decimate also qualify as haste effects because of how it affects Infuritate recast timer, but that's on a technicality like Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance removing cast times and Heat Blast affecting Guass Round/Ricochet recast timer...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

-snip-

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Alright, before any confusion ends up happening, let's first declare what even qualifies as "Haste".

Haste is the general term for buffs that reduce recast time of GCD actions (Weaponskills, Spells), with Skillspeed -> Physical Haste and Spellspeed -> Magical Haste only.

As you said, various jobs have their own Haste buffs, such as:

- Presence of Mind (WHM)
- Greased Lightning (MNK)
- Shifu (SAM)
- Huton (NIN)
- Army's Paeon (BRD)
- Ley Lines (BLM)

What does not qualify as Haste is "sudo-Haste" via Hypercharge allowing you to use 1.5s recast Weaponskills on MCH or actions that reduce recast timers on off-GCD actions (like Fell Cleave reducing Infuriate by 5s). They do increase the overall tempo of jobs for certain and depending on who you ask, might feel good, but they aren't falling under the actual definition of what Haste is.

Now that all is said and done about Haste...

Skillspeed and Spellspeed aren't dead stats. You still want to have a certain amount of it to adjust your GCD recast timer to either a value that comfortable for you due to latency or that lines up with your job's rotation better. Some jobs even require a minimum amount of skillspeed to be played properly without losses due to game mechanics (like Blood Weapon from DRK needing you to have at least 2.43s GCD recast if not faster to give room for latency and / or jitter to get the 5th MP+Blood tick; I recommend 2.40s).

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I will say, however, that melding Tenacity for mitigation is highly unnecessary at current gear levels, so I would recommend against it unless you're planning on doing Ultimate.

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That's the point. I got to admit that I'm not into savage and ultimate content so it's not that of a problem if a few points go wasted. But still, I like to improve my stats in a useful way.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

Its more useful than you think but still not great.

E.G with 2.4k Tenacity instead of 2.4k Det. You would have 6.1% damage and mitigation instead of 8.1% damage, so for roughly 2.1% less damage done you take up 6.1% less damage.

So not great to focus on, but don't be too mad to have some on your gear its not that awful.

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Hmm, those Numbers are quite interesting. Consindering that as a Tank survivability should be top priority, not dps. Still, due to gear options I currently have I will invest some Phantasmagoria to get some Crit/Det. back and reduce Ten. back to where it was before (like 1200-1400ish).

Thank you for your answers. :)

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Originally Posted by SayoTharonel

This is... wow.. nothing.
So, long story short, Tenacity is still useless at least compared to the other stats and should be avoided like STDs... ^^

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Just like Parry was before it (Parry became tenacity).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Alright, before any confusion ends up happening, let's first declare what even qualifies as "Haste".

Haste is the general term for buffs that reduce recast time of GCD actions (Weaponskills, Spells), with Skillspeed -> Physical Haste and Spellspeed -> Magical Haste only.

As you said, various jobs have their own Haste buffs, such as:

- Presence of Mind (WHM)
- Greased Lightning (MNK)
- Shifu (SAM)
- Huton (NIN)
- Army's Paeon (BRD)
- Ley Lines (BLM)

What does not qualify as Haste is "sudo-Haste" via Hypercharge allowing you to use 1.5s recast Weaponskills on MCH or actions that reduce recast timers on off-GCD actions (like Fell Cleave reducing Infuriate by 5s). They do increase the overall tempo of jobs for certain and depending on who you ask, might feel good, but they aren't falling under the actual definition of what Haste is.

Now that all is said and done about Haste...

Skillspeed and Spellspeed aren't dead stats. You still want to have a certain amount of it to adjust your GCD recast timer to either a value that comfortable for you due to latency or that lines up with your job's rotation better. Some jobs even require a minimum amount of skillspeed to be played properly without losses due to game mechanics (like Blood Weapon from DRK needing you to have at least 2.43s GCD recast if not faster to give room for latency and / or jitter to get the 5th MP+Blood tick; I recommend 2.40s).

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Which is why I said "technically" for WAR, SMN and MCH, but they are not true haste effects, like MNKs Greased Lightning.


Would true haste effects combined with pseudo-haste effects, make certain jobs more fun and have more flow? More likely yes. Would it make it a bit unbalanced? Yes, without a doubt, but at least it would still be fun than spamming Fell Cleave 5 times in a row, which MCH has their own variant of Fell Cleave which, isn't completely broken because you can only use it up to 5 times and makes their charges come back faster than WAR.

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Originally Posted by SayoTharonel

That's the point. I got to admit that I'm not into savage and ultimate content so it's not that of a problem if a few points go wasted. But still, I like to improve my stats in a useful way.



Hmm, those Numbers are quite interesting. Consindering that as a Tank survivability should be top priority, not dps. Still, due to gear options I currently have I will invest some Phantasmagoria to get some Crit/Det. back and reduce Ten. back to where it was before (like 1200-1400ish).

Thank you for your answers. :)

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Tenacity doesn't really shine by itself, but with Crit. Hit, Direct Hit Rate, and Determination, because that is when you see the most DPS gain on tanks.

Tank survivability is not meaningfully affected by Tenacity in the only environment where these considerations (or materia melding in general) matter, which is Savage and Ultimate content (and newly released EX primals for the first few days MAYBE). In these environments, what matters is whether you can save your healer from using a GCD on you, so they can do damage or group heal instead. No realistic amount of tenacity is going to change that right now, because all damage on the tank is either HUGE, massive tankbusters that require cooldowns (which are available at that point in time, as fights are obviously designed with a specific cooldown timing in mind), or it is part of a mechanic multiple people get hit by, and thus needs a group heal anyway.

Auto attacks and other fluff damage on tanks can easily be healed by fairy, OCDs or other tools, and Tenacity doesnt matter there.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Just like Parry was before it (Parry became tenacity).

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Parry was way, way worse than tenacity. Parry didn't do anything for damage increase (well, except on DRK, but even that was about 0.1% or less), was useless on crit hits, blocked or magical attacks, and was fully rng-based, similar and worse to crit. Crit at least increases your damage done + rate, parry just increased the rate, and iirc parry also scaled worse than crit.

Tenacity affects all incoming damage, as well as increases your damage equal to 67% of determination.

Yeah, you want to avoid getting tenacity for dps purpose. Heck, even the recent world first and second on Alex Ultimate didn't meld tenacity or prefered tenacity gear. Yet, it's still far from useless. And even a tank focusing on tenacity isn't much of a burden to the party, their damage 'loss' is mostly neglectable. Parry on the other hand... is like playing tank for the most basic tanks' sake (<- don't do this!)

edit: Skill/spell speed is in a strange position. It is indeed better getting a certain tier from it, so it'll end up being an increase. (Or so it seems)

Yet, it doesn't increase your ability damage or recast time, it only affects your GCD actions, (dots from abilities) and auto attacks, and the later is pretty much useless for casters with the exception of SMN 'cause of their pets (correct me if I am wrong here).

And because of that reason will end up being more of a loss than an increase in most cases. Jobs that benefit from it more are SAM and MNK with Haste buffs, but even then it only goes for certain tier and more of it end up being overkill, useless or rightout even a loss by screwing up the rotation and buff windows. E.g. SAM doesn't want any GCD faster than 2.0s.

I would argue that SkS/SpS is even worse than tenacity. Someone on balance discord created a slow GNB build that is on par, or better than your average 2.4s GCD build, despite the fact that the 9th GCD in No Mercy window wouldn't be buffed. And it works because you don't clip your oGCDs, and your abilities are way more buffed by increased det/crit/ten value due to decreased SkS value.