1.21a Paladin Ability Changes

http://i.imgur.com/kvhk1.png

Nothing to complain about here. I'm happy all across the board. Cover can be used more often, Divine Veil is actually useful and Spirit's Within got the boost I was looking for.

Hopefully it's enough to make PLD the main tank now.

Nice changes! This will probably make PLD main tank for things where "tanking" is more of the objective rather then being able to tank and do damage at the same time. For example I would think tanking chimera would be alot better with PLD then WAR now because war doesnt really do much damage to chim and getting/keeping hate can sometimes be an issue. On the other hand, on things like the mistress where a good war can actually do good DPS as well as tank, there is no reason to ever use PLD.

Divine veil Blocking for 20 full seconds will be awesome phalanx spam thats gonna secure a ton of hate onto the PLD.

Still can't see how these changes would make PLD more preferable to WAR. Mitigation might be a bit better on PLD, but the damage output on WAR is still so amazing that you'd be crazy not to pick it for your tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jwang

Still can't see how these changes would make PLD more preferable to WAR. Mitigation might be a bit better on PLD, but the damage output on WAR is still so amazing that you'd be crazy not to pick it for your tank.

---

Easy - a tank's not about DPS but damage mitigation and hate.

PLD - defensive tank.
WAR - offensive tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Easy - a tank's not about DPS but damage mitigation and hate.

PLD - defensive tank.
WAR - offensive tank.

---

Basically, are you bringing two WHM to the event or just one and filling the other spot with a DPS?

The thing though is while a PLD has better defensive CDs, WARs are only marginally more squishy. With their huge HP pool, Rampage crit heals not subjected to interrupts due to movement and damage, not being dependent on a resource which requires another class to refill, I don't see any benefit of bringing a PLD over a WAR outside of situations where you must kite a large number of mobs without coming into melee range. As it stands, a PLD is too much of a niche tank to be preferred over WAR, even with recent changes.

I do not understand where people get that Warriors are tanks - I can't apply the term to a job that is nothing without a WHM standing behind it to make it work, while a PLD arguably can survive a heck of a lot longer without being baby sat except in the most extreme of situations. No disrespect to any warrior but from experience the internal dialogue is " I'm a Warrior, WAR SMASH" while the other is " My shield and I dare you to kill me! ".

Not trying to start an argument but the mindset baffles me. As a support player I'd much honestly have my stalwart Knight watching my keister than the berserk dervish that is going to do little more than make my healer the next target the instant he goes down .... now as a back up I see no problem with this because the rate of enmity from DPS is going to place said War in that predicament. But in all honesty I am happy to see the changes to Paladin as a step in the proper direction.

My counter argument to the statement that healers will be too high on the hate list is that with the WAR's current damage and threat output, they can actually generate more hate than PLDs can outside of a multiple mob kiting situation. Between Antagonize and Sentinel, the hate generated by your actions should easily allow your damage dealers to remain safely in the yellow zone most of the time, and thus push their DPS higher. Sentinel, Rampart, Featherfoot, Foresight, and Vengeance all reduce damage taken, and the self healing done by Rampage and Second Wind also adds to hate in addition to reducing the amount that healers have to heal, lowering their hate generation. In my experience as tank, I actually have a harder time holding hate as PLD than as WAR since part of my threat generation comes from healing the party and myself. When my MP runs dry, I either have to depend on ethers (which I don't have room or inclination to carry), Outmaneuver (which returns a piddling amount of MP), or Ballad (which requires a specialized group setup). It just simply is easier to go with a WAR tank than a PLD tank, especially since on boss level mobs, it's less about the amount of armor you have and more about the amount of HP you have to give healers more breathing room for their cures, HP numbers that WARs have in spades.

Heaven forbid we have two tanks who can handle the role...

These fixes are great and help out paladin immensely. Each handles the role decently, yes Pally could use a small HP bump but the only people crying about the job in contrast to WAR are min/maxers.

The way the two are specialized at the moment leads to flexibility in the future for specific runs. For 2.0 most will not have all jobs to 50 and be simply looking to min/max to get gear as quickly as possible. Having more than one class for a certain role ensures that parties are easier to find in the future.

Still no reason to bring a paladin to content that promotes speed over efficiency. Both of the new dungeons are basically pull mass mobs/aoe and the warriors 1600 cyclone crits while a paladin sitting there holding his "sword" doesn't have any comparable ability.

Good revamps but right now it accomplishes nothing. There has to be content to promote the use of a paladin first.

They'll add something PLD excels at. It's only a matter of time really. ARC, PGL (MNK), LNC, and MRD all went through this same phase. It's part of the ebb and flow of the MMO raid design we've seen so far.

SE cannot design tank jobs its XI all over again, (RDM DRK NIN all Shat all over PLD pretty hard in everything in XI in the 75 Era) as long as other jobs can Take damage just fine and Dish out damage at the same time Paladin (just like in XI) will never be a useful job.

Before the update introducing the job system CNJ was tanking Ifrit better than GLD tanks.

I have alot of faith in Yoshi and the Dev Team when it comes to building this game up, but when it comes to a no shit 'You need X-Job Tanking Now' I have no faith whatsoever in SE to deliver us a proper tank job.

I suppose I still carry a greater faith and bias with Paladin, so I'm happy with any changes they get to better facilitate their role. I can admit that especially since my biggest grief as a support class is being stuck with said War as a blatant MP sponge on top of having to care for an entire party besides - on my small server before the impending merge having 2 healers for just about anything DOES NOT EXIST. There for by my experience War is NOT a tank they are a raging deathfest until some giant boss slaps them into the ground then goes after the squishies.

Also, I admit my playtime in XIV is a short span but the rules of tanking designations aren't hugely varied. We see the intent and it's up to us as players to make that intent into action and embrace it instead of shooting it down before we can even see things in action.

Basically if you bring a warrior in, you're guaranteed to have to have 2 WHM just because of how much they get hit.

If you have PLD now, maybe they will only need 1 healer :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geabrielle

I do not understand where people get that Warriors are tanks - I can't apply the term to a job that is nothing without a WHM standing behind it to make it work, while a PLD arguably can survive a heck of a lot longer without being baby sat except in the most extreme of situations. No disrespect to any warrior but from experience the internal dialogue is " I'm a Warrior, WAR SMASH" while the other is " My shield and I dare you to kill me! ".

Not trying to start an argument but the mindset baffles me. As a support player I'd much honestly have my stalwart Knight watching my keister than the berserk dervish that is going to do little more than make my healer the next target the instant he goes down .... now as a back up I see no problem with this because the rate of enmity from DPS is going to place said War in that predicament. But in all honesty I am happy to see the changes to Paladin as a step in the proper direction.

---

war has amazing tanking skills ,what are you talking about, lol. ever since they took guard ability away gld has sucked, they should just give guard back.

They should think about adding a system similar to the stance system from warriors in WoW. Make it so warriors can't tank unless they're in a defensive stance, and have the defensive stance lower damage done by the warrior by 50%~75%.

The biggest problem right now is how warriors can do damage, tank, and build insane enmity at the same time.

I also like the idea with the 1 healer requirement with paladin tanks and 2 healer requirements with warrior tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by syntaxlies

war has amazing tanking skills ,what are you talking about, lol. ever since they took guard ability away gld has sucked, they should just give guard back.

---

The word "tank" involves the stipulation of self survivability, a thing that warrior does NOT have with out massive mage support. Tanking skills involve more than enmity generation as well, a fact a lot of DDs forget in the glory of 'pulling hate' which gives the illusion of 'tanking'. That's NOT tanking that's holding hate until death or the white mage decides you're a burden. A paladin IS a tank by this defination and a warrior is a placebo. Harsh descriptor perhaps but again I'm looking at it from the view of having to keep said placebo alive withut a backup and it's actually not as efficient as it seems from this side of the fence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geabrielle

The word "tank" involves the stipulation of self survivability, a thing that warrior does NOT have with out massive mage support. Tanking skills involve more than enmity generation as well, a fact a lot of DDs forget in the glory of 'pulling hate' which gives the illusion of 'tanking'. That's NOT tanking that's holding hate until death or the white mage decides you're a burden. A paladin IS a tank by this defination and a warrior is a placebo. Harsh descriptor perhaps but again I'm looking at it from the view of having to keep said placebo alive withut a backup and it's actually not as efficient as it seems from this side of the fence.

---

rampart, feather foot, sentinel, second wind, foresight, blood bath. all healing or damage mitigation skills that can be used be war. They may not have as much as glad in that department but they do have them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by datboycuong

Basically if you bring a warrior in, you're guaranteed to have to have 2 WHM just because of how much they get hit.

If you have PLD now, maybe they will only need 1 healer :)

---

As has been stated in other threads, this is not the case. The second healer is to make things easier and safer in general. It's a safety net because it adds 2 more raises, and it's needed in fights where everyone is taking damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phobos

As has been stated in other threads, this is not the case. The second healer is to make things easier and safer in general. It's a safety net because it adds 2 more raises, and it's needed in fights where everyone is taking damage.

---

Do you ever think outside the box and realize you can change jobs inside dungeons? There are definitely fights where a pld and only 1 whm would be successful. The added dps will increase the kill speed while the pld can act as the tank/2nd whm. don't forget their cure spell also heals them for 50% of what they healed the party member for. If someone pulled aggro or got hit by something, the pld can cure them for 1100 and also heal himself for 550. The whm can focus on the tank and the rest of the party.

It frees everything up, you don't need an absolutely dedicated whm on the tank with a paladin in the group.

As someone who has been playing BLM a lot lately, I would like a PLD tank in fights like Chimera and the Ant Princess. Flash is wonderful for when the adds swarm, makes a BLMs life easier and able to hit all the adds

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanctus

Do you ever think outside the box and realize you can change jobs inside dungeons? There are definitely fights where a pld and only 1 whm would be successful. The added dps will increase the kill speed while the pld can act as the tank/2nd whm. don't forget their cure spell also heals them for 50% of what they healed the party member for. If someone pulled aggro or got hit by something, the pld can cure them for 1100 and also heal himself for 550. The whm can focus on the tank and the rest of the party.

It frees everything up, you don't need an absolutely dedicated whm on the tank with a paladin in the group.

As someone who has been playing BLM a lot lately, I would like a PLD tank in fights like Chimera and the Ant Princess. Flash is wonderful for when the adds swarm, makes a BLMs life easier and able to hit all the adds

---

You should check out the other earlier and longer thread about this. This argument has already been brought up there, discussed, and discredited by people who have experience with both jobs. I'm going to say up front that the people that actually discussed this have more experience than I do in tanking these instances. But I do have level 50 MRD and GLA and I have both PLD and WAR unlocked so I can follow the discussion and understand what's going on here.

What is being said by others is that PLD is not a replacement for a WHM. Parties with 2 WHMS don't need 2 WHMS because WAR is an mp sponge. They do it because it's safer and allows 2 raises instead of one. In both cases, you still have a WHM focusing on the tank and another focusing on the rest of the party. This is because PLD is more likely to be one shotted by boss abilities, so still needs attention.

Yes 1 WHM + 1 PLD + 1 extra DD is viable. But parties can and have already completed content just fine with 1 WAR + 1 WHM + 1 extra DD without any trouble because WAR has enough survivability and their DPS is just that much better than PLD. Things can be killed more quickly before it actually becomes an issue.

The gist of the argument is that on anything that matters, PLDs heals didn't make up for how dangerous a one shot ability from a boss is because they take time to cast and can be interrupted, and with their HP so low after a one-shot move, they are more likely to die, heals or not. WAR's hp makes a huge difference in survivability against abilities like these. Plus WAR has enmity tools that are just as good as, and some argue are better than, PLDs at the moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that you can tank as PLD. Of course you can. It's just easier and safer to tank as a WAR at the moment. At least before the changes. We'll have to see if that's changed now. But WAR's enmity tools and HP doesn't make it seem likely to me.

Here's the original thread if you want to check it out: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...aladin-Updates

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Orophen

You should check out the other earlier and longer thread about this. This argument has already been brought up there, discussed, and discredited by people who have experience with both jobs. I'm going to say up front that the people that actually discussed this have more experience than I do in tanking these instances. But I do have level 50 MRD and GLA and I have both PLD and WAR unlocked so I can follow the discussion and understand what's going on here.

What is being said by others is that PLD is not a replacement for a WHM. Parties with 2 WHMS don't need 2 WHMS because WAR is an mp sponge. They do it because it's safer and allows 2 raises instead of one. In both cases, you still have a WHM focusing on the tank and another focusing on the rest of the party. This is because PLD is more likely to be one shotted by boss abilities, so still needs attention.

Yes 1 WHM + 1 PLD + 1 extra DD is viable. But parties can and have already completed content just fine with 1 WAR + 1 WHM + 1 extra DD without any trouble because WAR has enough survivability and their DPS is just that much better than PLD. Things can be killed more quickly before it actually becomes an issue.

The gist of the argument is that on anything that matters, PLDs heals didn't make up for how dangerous a one shot ability from a boss is because they take time to cast and can be interrupted, and with their HP so low after a one-shot move, they are more likely to die, heals or not. WAR's hp makes a huge difference in survivability against abilities like these. Plus WAR has enmity tools that are just as good as, and some argue are better than, PLDs at the moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that you can tank as PLD. Of course you can. It's just easier and safer to tank as a WAR at the moment. At least before the changes. We'll have to see if that's changed now. But WAR's enmity tools and HP doesn't make it seem likely to me.

Here's the original thread if you want to check it out: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...aladin-Updates

---

Please read the thread title. That is great about that discussion, but this is about PLD after the changes have been made. I don't think many parties have attempted a PLD tank with the new changes that went live this morning...

If they prove to be fail changes then I will admit I'm wrong, but with the new damage reduction, stacked HoTs, and more damage output PLD got, they are a viable tank and backup healer if they have a bard.

If your pt is better equipped to succeed, you don't need 4 whm raises and a bard raise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanctus

Please read the thread title. That is great about that discussion, but this is about PLD after the changes have been made. I don't think many parties have attempted a PLD tank with the new changes that went live this morning...

If they prove to be fail changes then I will admit I'm wrong, but with the new damage reduction, stacked HoTs, and more damage output PLD got, they are a viable tank and backup healer if they have a bard.

If your pt is better equipped to succeed, you don't need 4 whm raises and a bard raise

---

Don't worry. I understand what the thread is about. It's not that hard to figure out. And I'm NOT attacking you over this, but you're pointing out that 1 WHM + 1 PLD is thinking out of the box. It's not. It's already been done. And so has 1 WHM + 1 WAR. Phobos was alluding to the fact that the 2 WHM thing isn't the issue that you think it is. Reading the other discussion would've explained that.

PLD has always been a viable tank. That was never the issue. WAR was just better and people don't think it should be that way. My point is that I don't think the changes are enough to change that. With no HP increase and no defense/enmity buff over WAR, I'm skeptical. A lot of people were also complaining about PLD needing a BRD in order to not run out of MP so I don't think that's the answer either. But it's not as if I've decided that PLD is crap already. I'm not even saying you're wrong yet. I just have an opinion about it and I'm also waiting to see what the changes will bring to the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanctus

Please read the thread title. That is great about that discussion, but this is about PLD after the changes have been made. I don't think many parties have attempted a PLD tank with the new changes that went live this morning...

If they prove to be fail changes then I will admit I'm wrong, but with the new damage reduction, stacked HoTs, and more damage output PLD got, they are a viable tank and backup healer if they have a bard.

If your pt is better equipped to succeed, you don't need 4 whm raises and a bard raise

---

You say something about damage reduction, yet there is actually no damage reduction on anything that matters (magic damage). This, in my opinion, is the problem. Because PLD and WAR take the same damage from magical attacks, and WAR has more HP, it will remain the viable tank.

Some people try to claim WAR can hold hate better but I vehemently disagree. Especially with this update, I'll personally have no issues on PLD (this was the case before the update as I know how to keep up with enmity abilities). This update is amazing, I personally just want to highlight the fact that it has not actually fixed much. Until our damage reduction overtakes our HP penalty, we will not be on top. PLD is definitely better than GLA now, which is a key step in the right direction.

I'm sorry if I come off as attacking you or anything, I just want to see PLD surpass WAR in every aspect of tanking as it should. A DD taking hate should be a bad thing, not a good thing. I don't want to see WAR not be able to tank, though... I just want to see PLD be better than WAR at what it's true purpose is. PLD should be the supreme tank. Even if as some people are suggesting PLD is now comparable to WAR or slightly better, that's not good enough. PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that anyone who brings up the suggestion (of WAR tanking being better than PLD tanking) gets laughed at because of how ridiculous it is. I mean seriously... it's the main purpose of the job! Even GLA should beat WAR at tanking! WAR should be able to tank, but PLD should be tank king.

Basically PLD just needs a def boost...or rather SE needs to fix the defense formula. I also wonder if def requires an effective combination of def and VIT, like STR and attack. I know VIT by itself is pretty useless but combined with def I wonder if it has any increased merits as far as damage reduction goes.

I mean seriously SE had to have tested PLD, so I feel like there's something the community hasn't figured out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Basically PLD just needs a def boost...or rather SE needs to fix the defense formula. I also wonder if def requires an effective combination of def and VIT, like STR and attack. I know VIT by itself is pretty useless but combined with def I wonder if it has any increased merits as far as damage reduction goes.

I mean seriously SE had to have tested PLD, so I feel like there's something the community hasn't figured out.

---

The issue isnt how much Damage Paladin Takes, or if Paladin can hold hate.

Its the same stupid argument in XI and Paladin has the same exact issue in both games. Paladin is very much capable of holding hate and mitigating Damage.

But the main issue is, whats the point of bringing a Paladin if another job can hold its place while dealing damage?

The day SE understands and learns how to properly build an actual tank job is the day pigs fly. Because they have been failing at it for years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phobos

PLD should be so much better than WAR at tanking that anyone who brings up the suggestion (of WAR tanking being better than PLD tanking) gets laughed at because of how ridiculous it is. I mean seriously... it's the main purpose of the job! Even GLA should beat WAR at tanking! WAR should be able to tank, but PLD should be tank king.

---

I disagree. I believe that both jobs should be approximately equal as far as tanking abilities - maybe one better than the other for some situations, or vice versa - but not one clearly superior to the other in all situations. Tanking is the main purpose of WAR in this game too. It just happens to also be able to deal good damage.

Do you think there should be one DD job that is clearly the best DD job in all situations? If not, why should that apply to tanks?

We'll all be better off if there is more variety available in filling a particular role within a party.

I can see PLD, even as it is now, being the preferred tank in straight tank and spank fights that involve melee-range DDs. Divine Veil becomes a game changer now with the stacking regen, which can go a long way to alleviate the extra damage melee DD take.

Problem is, not a lot of fights are done with melee-range DDs right now. Even though many of them have become viable, the community has become so accustomed to the safety range-DPS brings that they continue preferring it.

Miser's Mistress is a good example of a melee-DPS battle. However one of the reasons that is possible is the lack of aoe damage she deals. Thus WAR is still a better tank since it can DPS very well on her. PLD's talents are lost on that fight.

You can probably imagine if there was a melee-dps preferable fight where those melees did take damage, that it would likely be off-set by curaga spam or some other whm-induced mechanic/spell rather than the addition of a PLD. They could go hand-in-hand surely, but chances are the responsibility to keep the party alive would fall more in part on the healers than the tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Miser's Mistress is a good example of a melee-DPS battle. However one of the reasons that is possible is the lack of aoe damage she deals. Thus WAR is still a better tank since it can DPS very well on her. PLD's talents are lost on that fight.

You can probably imagine if there was a melee-dps preferable fight where those melees did take damage, that it would likely be off-set by curaga spam or some other whm-induced mechanic/spell rather than the addition of a PLD. They could go hand-in-hand surely, but chances are the responsibility to keep the party alive would fall more in part on the healers than the tank.

---

What makes Divine Veil so useful is the indirect healing it provides, giving one less reason for the WHM to generate more enmity. Also, one can bring only 1 WHM with a PLD tank.

That being said, I concur that the encounters we have in game atm favor a WAR tank still for the most part. PLD needs an inherent defense buff as they mentioned in the job description ages ago. A very noticeable defense buff at that.

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws....1333057572.jpg


I know , I know , "its just Ifrit" , just curious how other tanks WAR or PLD do , if anyone has any parse to share. havent dont the new bosses yet , but I look forward to it, sounds like in either situation PLD would make a great tank, Altho will admit WAR with good def gear could do good at damage deflection with Chimera , sorry if i spelt that wrong. but anytime you can block a huge percentage of physical attacks and the mob dose mainly or only physical damage, PLD should be the obvious choice for its ability to make 80% (roughly) of that damage disapear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aceofspades

http://http://files.enjin.com.s3.ama...1333057572.jpg


I know , I know , "its just Ifrit" , just curious how other tanks WAR or PLD do , if anyone has any parse to share. havent dont the new bosses yet , but I look forward to it, sounds like in either situation PLD would make a great tank, Altho will admit WAR with good def gear could do good at damage deflection with Chimera , sorry if i spelt that wrong. but anytime you can block a huge percentage of physical attacks and the mob dose mainly or only physical damage, PLD should be the obvious choice for its ability to make 80% (roughly) of that damage disapear.

---

I'd probably prefer a PLD tank for Ifrit now. Couple it with only 1 WHM and 1 BRD and you can run multiple MNK DDs for the best DPS. Regen + Divine Veil would make more than just Sear obsolete.

Would just like to add, soo this thread dosent go the way of others, if your gona post "facts" about this subject, could you provide sufficient evidance to support your theory? just claims alone are not only mis leading but often spark useless debate the essentualy serves no purpose other then to make people feel smarter then they realy are. Fraps, parse, or even discription of the abilties you talk about would be great to help keep this discusion literal and not " well WAR just FEELS like a better tank" or "I can tank the world solo on my PLD". not my thread just asking that people post responsably not just whaty THEY experianced and have no way to back it.

You realize the only thing you can block on Ifrit is his basic attack, judging from your parse. Which also denotes you have a 121% block rate lol

Oh wait, no one cares about your paladin campaign. It's incredibly one-sided.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Would just like to add, soo this thread dosent go the way of others, if your gona post "facts" about this subject, could you provide sufficient evidance to support your theory? just claims alone are not only mis leading but often spark useless debate the essentualy serves no purpose other then to make people feel smarter then they realy are. Fraps, parse, or even discription of the abilties you talk about would be great to help keep this discusion literal and not " well WAR just FEELS like a better tank" or "I can tank the world solo on my PLD". not my thread just asking that people post responsably not just whaty THEY experianced and have no way to back it.

---

This would be really hard to do for PLD vs WAR as you cannot parse enmity, and general damage taken / healing required differs from fight to fight even on the same mobs.

ehh true, maybe videos to go with parses , will work on that this weekend, can you guys live with chimera or you need to see coin .. whatever the name is? IDC to do either , Princess is a Joke to tank soo i wont even count that one, hmm i will check tomorow, if you must see the AV boss then soo be it, just never been that far in AV soo may take a bit to get that fight down. maybe monday i will have em both on parse and video to go with. Other then that , their is nothing else i can do to prove to yall PLD is not only not broke but is as good ( if not better in other situations) then WAR at boss tanking. But as far as one sidedness gose there is nothing i can do about that.