I have seen a lot of people on a certain popular thread complain that Endgame crafting is too easy, and encourages lazy behavior. Let me go over what “lazy behavior” means exactly.
Spamming a macro retrieved from the internet, while simultaneously watching Netflix, hardly paying attention to a craft. Not bothering to understand a craft, even after the 5.1 overhaul happened, which in theory, should make crafting more easier to understand!
Level 1 - 79 recipes should be easy. But anything endgame should NOT be this easy, at all. I hardly find it fun anymore to craft!
After seeing many people still ask for macros in the Balance Discord and in the game even, it is clear that there are many people who are not interested in learning how endgame crafting works. They are only interested in the final result. Not what it took to get the result!
I do not like RNG in crafting, and I hope it is not added in 5.2, because as some of you may know, there was an interview recently where Mr. Yoshida started he wants people to stop using macros, and he will add “procs”. Adding RNG will not make people happy, what will, is focusing on a crafting revamp that makes Endgame skill based. If RNG is all Mr. Yoshida can do for the players that want challenges, that is fine. But a skill overhaul would be much more preferable!
If you would like Endgame crafting to be skill based in a future expansion rather than depend on RNG for a challenge, please support this thread and it may happen. The “casual and hardcore” popular thread motivated me to make this, because it’s much too easy..
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11-10-2019, 02:14 PMMegaStixMr. Yoshida, the Endgame Crafting System should become more Skill Based:
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11-10-2019, 03:06 PMDoozer
What's the difference between crafting something because you're 'good' and because you used a macro. Does the item have better durability? Are the stats better? Does it sell for more? Probably not, so who cares.
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11-10-2019, 04:02 PMCookiesNCreams
Edit: You know what, just go here ———> http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...dcore-crafters..
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11-10-2019, 04:30 PMPlsNoBully
Aren't you the exact same person that made the other thread?
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11-10-2019, 04:51 PMMiminming
Define what is "skill based" other than rng and stat (aka. Overmeld)?
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11-10-2019, 05:13 PMxJimmehx
I use macros because it saves my hands from lots of unnecessary physical stress. Clicking a mouse too often can actually harm your hands. I don't always look them up. I make my own sometimes and yes I have searched for aid online before and even spoken with other crafters about what I could do to better myself. Not all of us "just want hand outs."
Also, why do you care so much if somebody chooses to macro? It doesnt effect you in any way. Because its easier for them to make stuff? What if theyre dumb and they still find copying a macro to be just as difficult for them as manual crafting is to you? What if they are smarter than you and find good rotations at a much faster rate than you? Honestly, It will never be truly equal in terms of difficulty.
If you want harder content. Sure, why not? Im all for it, but dont punish others because you want to play differently. That is just plain silly.
Finally, RNG is not in any way a form of "difficuly." Its more about luck. You do something "optimal" and even if you do it correctly RNG may let you fail anyways. On the other hand it may not. Theres no additional challenge by adding in RNG. If you want real challenge, i suggest you find it somewhere else. Crafting has never been difficult in any game i have ever played. You gear up, collect materials, study the mechanics long enough to understand them and finally, do what you have learned to create something. Once you have done that, keep playing with it all until you know the easiest way possible. Because of your hardwork up until this point, you now know so much that it isnt "hard" anymore. And you can consistantly craft things while watching netflix. It has been this way in every single game ive played. In fact, FFXIV has some of the most intricate crafting ive experienced. The only possible way i can think of to make it hard, is maybe mini games. Imagine being a black smith and you have to keep a gauge filled for a bit by pressing the buttons it prompts you to press as fast as you can as a way of "keeping your fire hot enough" and if you do it too slow, the fire gets colder. Imagine having to actually time your actions, cook something too long and its burned. Not long enough? Its still raw! Fishing could still utilize bait types but also a mini game to "reel" in the fish without snapping your line. I would much rather see something like this personally. -
11-10-2019, 05:22 PMRyazI would even hesitate to call RNG skill based. It's more about luck than anything. The only skill involved is deciding whether or not to use Precise Touch, Intensive Synthesis or Tricks of the Trade when they proc. If you go a while craft without getting a good or excellent, you could easily be screwed by something outside of your control due to random chance, not because you did something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miminming
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11-10-2019, 06:58 PMBeelhiI had the same feeling. Generic Hyur face, the name....the wording of "a certain popular thread"...just confused as to why they'd do this xDQuote:
Originally Posted by PlsNoBully
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11-11-2019, 12:16 AMNovanthaNah, they're not. Similar characters and such but I know them, they're not. ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by PlsNoBully
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11-11-2019, 01:04 AMNicodemus_Mercy
I am not sure a "skill based" crafting system is possible in a video game. Skill implies being exceptionally proficient at something not necessarily easy to do, but there is no proficiency level in a video game. You either are capable of doing something or you aren't. And if you are capable, you then need to figure out how to do that something.
In this age of information at the touch of your fingertips, once one person figures something out and shares that knowledge, the rest of the world basically has access to it too. It would be one thing if you could hoard your discoveries and tricks and keep them to yourself, but in a video game system, barring RNG, once a formula is solved and shared... that's it, it's solved for everyone. Tools like the optimizer websites remove the risk of trial and error to figure out those formulas. There is no "skill" to base the system around. It's basically math. And once solved and shared, that math is available to anyone who takes the time to look for it.
When people say skill in crafting I think of real world things like hand/eye coordination, exceptionally steady hands, exceptional agility or flexibility of the limbs, refined instincts. I'm not sure how such innately physical attributes could be required for video game crafting, outside of turning crafting into a first person shooter minigame which I would find abhorrent.
As far as I can see there is no such thing as "skill based" crafting in FFXIV and there never was. There is only:
"RnG/Persistence based crafting" where rng always holds sway and you can never guarantee your results, leading to only those willing to risk multiple failures for a few successes as the top of the food chain. This sort of system leads to potentially only a few big fish running the economy and likely higher prices for buyers.
and
"Gear/Information based" crafting which is what I think we have now, where as long as you have the right gear/stats and take the time to learn the ins and outs of how the system works, use the tools at hand, and keep up to date with various forum resources, you're going to excel at crafting, leading to anyone who takes the time being able to take part in the system at the highest levels. This leads to far more competition in the crafting market with many suppliers and thus lower prices for buyers.
"Skill" doesn't really play a part in either. And I personally prefer more competition among sellers than only a few big wigs (who often collude with each other to keep prices high) running the market. -
11-11-2019, 06:47 AMMaeka
"Skill" doesn't really apply to turn-based systems really.
Old JRPGs were never about skill, they were about strategy and planning. But, there was a fair amount of RNG if the numbers were close enough, and/or RNG involved in what attacks the enemies would use when.
But at the end of the day, if you had big enough numbers, you would win unless you made a mistake, or unless the game decided you were going to lose no matter what.
FFXIV crafting is no different than say, a boss battle in a turn-based JRPG, like oh, 7th Saga (an old SNES JRPG).
It's a bit simplified, sure, but it's still turn-based, allowing you to analyze the situation, decide what you want to do and when based upon your condition, their condition, etc. But it's still you take a turn, and it takes a turn (Normal/Good/Excellent pops) until you win, or lose. And at the end, you get a final % chance you get the HQ result.
People go on and on and on about 7th Saga being "Hard", to which I always laugh and point them to the series of videos I made where I take the worst character in the game, and go through solo (you usually have a party member to help you) and show that no, 7th Saga is not that hard. It's just knowing what to do when, and having high enough numbers to overcome the obstacles put in front of you.
.....and some luck.
EDIT: Consider these two short videos I made:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/279210190
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/279734209
In the first, I lost. The second, I won.
Why?
I got a couple levelups (which is akin to getting better gear in FFXIV), and I had slightly better luck (more Good/Excellent procs), and in the first I made a dumb gamble, but to be honest even if I hadn't taken that gamble I probably still would have lost. -
11-11-2019, 02:20 PMIntrovertAntFinally, someone who makes sense and sees the system for what it really is instead of shouting hyperbolic absolutism gibberish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
That being said, what do you think of YoshiP saying that he wants crafting to move to a process based difficulty system? -
11-11-2019, 02:21 PMIntrovertAnt
Your point remains, it still wouldn\\\\'t be "skill" to just be present to press a proc button when it lights up, but if it\\\\'s difficult enough it will make macroing very unwieldy.
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11-11-2019, 04:16 PMNicodemus_MercyMy guess is that future crafting might be tightly tuned to stats, making the "process based difficulty" about both trying to get high enough stats AND require the intelligent use of good/excellent procs to successfully make HQ items without HQ mats, thus making macros unreliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt
The "difficulty" might be moved to actually producing HQ materials so that you can actually make HQ items. It's possible that such a system could eliminate the bulk, if not all, of the rng IF you use HQ base materials to make the processed materials. This would increase the value of HQ gathered mats greatly, and make it difficult, if not impossible, to craft HQ items with 100% chance with only normal quality materials.
Or it could be a combination of both ideas or something entirely different. Ultimately though, I don't think SE is going to drastically change how crafting works, or make it too punitive to even try to make HQ items if you have the best of the best gear melded to heck. -
11-12-2019, 12:31 AMMitsubashi
Gathering in 1.0 was skill based. Crafting in FFXIV has always been a number puzzle not a skill game. With 5.1 the math mini game of crafting is far easier than it has ever been. It's too easy. And the XP boosts for leveling have gone too far.
I suspect they were tasked with making Crafting more approachable for new players with significant influxes happening from WoW. They've gone way too far for me. I'm expecting to see an increasing number of end game crafters over the coming weeks. Across Chaos datacenter this last weekend there were approx double compared to the previous couple of weeks covering 5.1 release. Good news for gatherers and for adventurers who buy resources with tomestones. It'll be offset by Ishgard Restoration in the short term but the way things are balanced medium to long term it's extremely bad for crafting giving you a sense of lasting achievement. -
11-12-2019, 04:05 AMJowyAtreides
Aside from having a gold saucer punching doll style crafting system (ie any progression hits you need to hit your hammer in time to a marker or something), or like the battle content from Legend of Dragoon or Shadow Hearts, what can they do to make it a skill-based content?
Right now it's all luck and numbers.
I wish people would bring suggestions to the table when they create threads... -
11-12-2019, 05:20 AMShadygrove
Skill....
I sew IRL, do leatherworking too. Every time a needle goes through a piece of leather it leaves a permanent hole. I can repair a piece and sew it back up on a sewing machine* only hitting the original holes.
That takes skill. Nothing in XIV's crafting system takes skill.
* The machine: http://simards.com/wp-content/upload...-10-2019-2.jpg -
11-12-2019, 06:11 PMNanaWilohNow that machine gots some stories it could tell. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Shadygrove
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11-12-2019, 11:20 PMGranyalaNot skill as in a traditional RL sense, where you not only need technical knowledge but spend years training your motor skills / hand eye coordination etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
No, that isn't possible with a video game.
The only skill based thing a video game can do is demand quick reactions and quick thinking, on the fly adjustments (which also needs a lot of technical knowledge about the underlying mechanics and systems).
Could they incorporate that into the crafting system as-is? I honestly do not know. Giving the items procs the player has to react to (and has to react to correctly) would introduce RNG because if you can craft the item w/o having to pay attention to the procs, they are meaningless.
They could curb macro crafting very easily, if they really wanted to: random procs that do not advance the item or quality (so no adverse RNG is introduced) but fail (or severely hinder) the synthesis if the player chooses the incorrect skill in his response.
Would that be fun though? I doubt it. Also it would again not feel satisfying on an intellectual level. While macros would be gone, it's be still static "green light -> use X" and "blue light -> use Y".
For me, the most fun part of crafting is coming up with a rotation for a given item tier using a simulator. Everything past that is pretty much uninvolved labor.