Hey guys, so I've recently noticed that Shelltron has no effect on critical attacks. So basically, if we are hit with a crit, it's as if we didn't even use a cool-down. Now, I know that the game decides whether an attack will crit or not before whether or not we block it, but I feel like this system should be ignored if Shelltron is active. So maybe, Awareness (rip) could be fused into Shelltron? That would be pretty cool.
I don't know, just feels like a slap in the face when I see an attack crit me while I have shelltron active and I know that Shelltron did nothing to it.
Shelltron and critical attacks.
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11-04-2019, 07:06 PMTheForceShelltron and critical attacks.
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11-04-2019, 07:13 PMArianeEwah
Sheltron is already the same as RI at this point, but weaker due to your stated problem.
Awareness was an original PLD/GLA ability, I see no reason to not implement it into Sheltron. Naturally passive block should still be excluded from this change (as if we've ever noticed).
I support this! -
11-04-2019, 07:53 PMNedkel
PLD doesnt need that, it is enough that he is already one of the best OT in the game.
You cant have everything, change sheltron and we will have to nerf intervention. -
11-04-2019, 08:12 PMTheForce....hm? Idk, if I pop a CD, I expect it to actually do something. If anything, I need Sheltron most for critical hits. We don't want "everything", it just seems kind of silly that our on-demand CD is totally useless at times we need it most, especially when other Tanks' CDs all help mitigate Crit damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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11-04-2019, 08:20 PMArianeEwahPLD best OT? Have you missed ShB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
TBN/HoS/NF all > baseline Intervention, and Cover nerfed useless as mitigation tool outside of cheese tactics.
To buff Intervention, PLD has to use Rampart or Sentinel, and then it's better to just voke and use Sheltron instead.
It has better efficiency for double tankbusters, but there are just a few of them anyway, and even then NF and TBN are probably better.
(WAR burst can heal ~20-25% of OT HP pool + 10% mitigation while healing themselves by ~40-50%, TBN is flat 25% eHP gain.)
PLD is nowhere near 'best OT' since ShB, but closer 'best raid wide mitigation tank'. -
11-07-2019, 11:52 AMVenKitsune
Tank balance is based around raids. Raids are bosses. Bosses cannot random crit players. If you're dying because a dungeon mob crit you, you have other problems. End of discussion.
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11-07-2019, 02:22 PMSleepyNekoThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
/10char -
11-07-2019, 05:31 PMArianeEwahAre you sure? You should double check that!Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
Bosses AA do crit. Raid wide aoes and mechnics (such as tank busters, marks etc.) cannot crit, but AAs still do!
Also, I never saw OP mentioned dying to trash mobs because of crit hits!?
They just mentioned that Sheltron is rendered useless when getting auto critted... or worse getting hit by crit mechanic. -
11-07-2019, 06:02 PMTheForceNope. This is definitely not the end of the discussion. What is your problem? Getting so up in arms about what exactly? I never said I was dying to dungeon mobs, what I'm saying is that RNG shouldn't affect the effectiveness of my CD. And well, to heck with balancing around only raids, especially when doing so gives birth to obvious, and quite frankly, laughable flaws like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
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11-07-2019, 06:30 PMCabalabobIf tank balance is based around raids and raids can’t crit then this change does not effect balance. So why would you be against a quality of life change that makes sense since it means a damage reduction cooldown would actually reduce damage? And if your answer is why should block be checked before crit? My answer is why shouldn’t it?Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
Try to envision a scenario where a baseball player is about to hit a ball and it is determined if the ball smacks the player in the face (critical hit) before it is checked if the ball is thrown wide (accuracy/evasion), if he hits the ball with his bat (block) or if the ball bounces off his helmet (parry). The order that FFXIV’s checks happen in is weird, a critical hit should not be checked before it is checked if it even hits or bypasses your defences. -
11-07-2019, 11:11 PMVenKitsuneErrrr Nope, they don't crit, atleast not unless its a specific mechanic. I'm 99.9% sure on that, but feel free to provide a source saying otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
If RNG shouldn't be able to dictate your effectiveness then surely, to make it fair, you shouldn't be able to crit your attacks or heals either, then?
And no - If things are balanced around raids, that trickles down to 4 man dungeons and extreme trials....but it doesn't work the other way around.
Well no - Checking for crit first is how the game works. If its a crit, it wont miss, and it'll do more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
That's simply how the game is coded and it makes sense.
Is damage crit? Yes
Did target block? Yes
Take Crit damage number, reduce block percentage, apply damage.
It should not be Reduce block percentage, take crit number, apply damage. That's not how even basic maths works. -
11-07-2019, 11:28 PMReynhartWell, the order is completely arbitrary, so it makes as much sense as any other order.Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
You could very well check first if the hit connected properly (so, no dodge, no parry, no block), and after, you have a chance to apply critical damage.
Also, in that case, if the hit crits, the game won't check for block, so you won't reduce anything. -
11-08-2019, 12:16 AMArianeEwahUnending Coil of Bahamut - during 5.1 - Nael deus Darnus' AAs on tanksQuote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
Bahamuts AAs also critted here, Twintanias AAs didn't, but through own exp I know it can. Just as all bosses in UWU can, and I am 100% sure all pre-ShB dungeon- and raid-bosses can, too.
Truth be told, I am yet to find any ShB source with auto crits. SE may have decided to remove auto crits from (raid) bosses because they removed Awareness as a CD. Strangely enough, at least trash mobs in ShB dungeons still have a chance to crit. Not sure about dungeon bosses.
Nevertheless, even if this just affects trash mobs and/or pre-ShB bosses, it's a QoL change that wouldn't hurt anyone. And it would make Sheltron more reliable. -
11-08-2019, 03:58 AMAurelius2625
How about this, you're wrong. Sheltron is fine. NO tankbusters crit outside of forced crits like the stuff from Diabolos Hollow and Halicarnasus where it's based around that... so then... use something else and plan sheltron for something other than that one thing? It's called planning mitigation, something you need to learn as a tank, just like planning heals on a healer... oh the horror.
Sheltron is amazing, and is on par with two personal CDs since you can stack 100 gauge for it. It's not static like a cooldown like Camo, you can plan the two charges for two different things. -
11-08-2019, 06:12 AMTheForceMan, I'm getting really tired of the unnecessarily rude attitudes some of you people have. I hope I never run into any of you in game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius2625
"Something you need to learn as a Tank". You can't be serious, I've tanked both Savage and EX Primals (while relevant), please do not talk to me like I don't know how to Tank, how about that. Tankbusters aren't the only damage that you take in this game, please stop acting like it is. Being able to have 2 charges doesn't excuse the fact that critical attacks render the CD useless, it is as if we didn't even use the skill, especially when Paladin is already kind of lacking in the personal mitigation department, heck, Divine Veil still doesn't
even apply to us. That is not okay, and no matter how much you try and justify it will it ever be okay. -
11-08-2019, 07:02 AMMachkaRaid boss autoattacks absolutely can crit. It's possible not every boss does, but there are definitely some that do.Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
Source: Used to raid as a tank, and have 100% definitely been critted by autoattacks before. -
11-08-2019, 08:51 AMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
No, it's not, and no it doesn't particularly make sense.
The sequence is
Quote:
Crit: Yes/NoIf yes:
Damage crits. It cannot be dodged, blocked, or parried.
If no:Dodge: Yes/No
If yes:
All damage is avoided. It cannot be blocked or parried.
If no:Block: Yes/No
If yes:
Damage is blocked. It cannot be parried.
If no:Parry: Yes/No
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11-08-2019, 08:53 AMBreadgehog
Sheltron's tradeoff is that as the expansion goes on it will get strictly better at blocking most damage than other on-demand cooldowns, because block strength will likely get to the point where it mitigates about 25%. There's not going to be any content that straight out requires you to be able to ward off an autocrit, even shit like Optimized Blade Dance in O12 and Tera Slash in Shin Ex will still be fine, the same way magical tankbusters don't instagib non-DRKs. PLD is allowed to be slightly worse in one aspect of tanking that rarely actually surfaces, especially with how overwhelmingly good it is by almost any other metric.
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11-08-2019, 08:56 AMShurrikhanA second charge, which does not increase uptime or mitigation over time, is of equal value to an entire second ability, which not only provides the same flexibility and short-term coverage as the second charge but also increases uptime and mitigation over time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius2625
And... how is it going to do that when Block Strength is capped at that of the Ronkan shield (20% mitigation, which also happens to waste Block and Parry chance and is nullified by crits)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Breadgehog
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11-08-2019, 09:19 AMKabooaWhile it doesn't help the critical bypass, there is also no guarantee that shield strength won't increase - only that it will not vary within a tier itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-08-2019, 10:05 AMSleepyNeko
Only older content allows for bosses AA to crit, like maybe ARE old. Since they already removed awareness from role skills you can see thay they will no longer be adding avoidable critical damage to the game.
They probably will need to do some major changes to their combat system to allow for blocking to work against critical attacks. -
11-08-2019, 10:16 AMShurrikhanTrue. I guess I was assuming overmuch, since it seems remarkably poor design to specifically make a tank weaker at the start -- inferior to other tanks in overall mitigaition -- only to make it abnormally strong by the last tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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11-08-2019, 11:19 AMBreadgehogI genuinely hadn't noticed block strength stagnated at Ronkan, that's on me. Historically it's been vaguely like BRD used to be with crit, okay to start but better as things go on. I don't necessarily think this is good design, just that it's in keeping with past decisions and seemed to be their intention. We'll see what the next tier brings, if there truly are no changes to block strength then Sheltron should probably just be a 15-20% reduction for its duration, without negating existing block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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11-08-2019, 11:26 AMNockvrycaIf they are dying to auto attacks on single bosses that is mostly a healer problem. If you are dying in trash pulls that is a combination of problems, tank not using cds, healer not healing effectively, low dps resulting in too many resources being used in one pull. Even crit autos are not dangerous, the only boss that i can really think of that is dangerous because of crits is o3s. This is boss the buster crits and she herself has a high crit chance, and only really dangerous if you are doing it synced.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArianeEwah
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11-08-2019, 12:42 PMShurrikhan[1] No worries. It was basically dumb luck that I happened to be looking over future alt gears and noticed that the moment my WHM hit 80.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breadgehog
[2] Personally, I like that if passive RNG blocking is to be PLD's answer to its reduced mitigation throughput over time (from its lacking an eHP CD relative to other tanks) then Shelltron effectively just makes reliable that RNG function. I just think it should then be significantly more frequent than most on-demand CDs (IR/NF and HoS at 25s regardless of uptime), rather than just barely so (Shelltron per 22.4 second of uptime). Heck, I'd almost rather the gauge be removed and Shelltron made (1) a 40-second, two-charge CD that is (2) later upgraded such that its cooldown is reduced with each auto-attack (until it averages out to 20 seconds or so in perfect uptime, or maybe 25s when including a whole away-from-boss Req phase, but still gets some benefit from downtime). -
11-20-2019, 04:30 PMTheForceEven though it's looking unlikely now, I do really hope that Block's strength continues to increase as the expansion goes on. Or at the very least, Square Enix should just...Quote:
Originally Posted by Breadgehog
A) Introduce a "Super-Block" system, basically, if we were to pop Shelltron/POA and block an attack that we would've blocked regardless, that "Super-Block" would mitigate 30% of the damage instead of 20%.
Or,
B) Make Block a static 20% that is not affected by the equipped shield, because I gotta say, I almost spit out my drink when I saw that my block was 14% while I was a doing a level synced dungeon. That's gotta be addressed, Block should never, ever, ever, ever be weaker than Parry.