Do Puppetmasters exist in Ezorea?

So I was looking at Dissidia Final Fantasy: Opera Omnia Where they showcase Aphmau, and they show her briefly asking the other Final Fantasy characters if they seen her automaton. For those who are not Familiar with Aphmau, she is from FFXI, a key character from Treasures of Aht Urhgan expansion and a Puppetmaster.



https://i.ibb.co/tLF0GTJ/Screenshot-20191025-023809.png

As she talks to the other characters, Papalymo asks " isnt that a puppet weapon?" And he's from Ezorea, he also seems knowledgeable about puppets

Also Opera Omnia is cannon as far as I'm concerned, so do they exist?

Gigi. Hildebrandt story. Goldsmith guild. They exist.

Well, a Puppetmaster is someone who summons/creates and commands inanimate puppets. If you look at the lore bits we get from some minions about how they were made/came to life or what backstory they generally had, I would say that people classified as Puppetmasters indeed exist. There are a lot of hints in those texts, actually. There is also the Hildebrandt questline. And then there is, of course, "Lord of Verminion" in the GS where you actually participate as a puppetmaster yourself.

While not stated or named directly, through inference we know that "Puppetmaster" is a thing in Eorzea.

Now I'm curious whether Papalymo thinks Vivi looks like a mammet.

Eorzean Mammets use the same model as the puppets from FFXI, but in this game they appear to be entirely autonomous, rather than directly controlled by a puppet master. They're basically just robots. (Though, to be fair, the puppets in FFXI were pretty autonomous as well; at least, Aphmau's were.) I believe the techniques for creating them are a lost (or at least, dying) art, as Mammet cores are difficult to come by.

If there are any individuals in FFXIV that guide and manipulate Mammets Puppetmaster style, we have not seen any sign of them, but there's no real reason they couldn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Now I'm curious whether Papalymo thinks Vivi looks like a mammet.

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Vivi is a puppet...it is explained in FF9.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Eorzean Mammets use the same model as the puppets from FFXI, but in this game they appear to be entirely autonomous, rather than directly controlled by a puppet master. They're basically just robots. (Though, to be fair, the puppets in FFXI were pretty autonomous as well; at least, Aphmau's were.) I believe the techniques for creating them are a lost (or at least, dying) art, as Mammet cores are difficult to come by.

If there are any individuals in FFXIV that guide and manipulate Mammets Puppetmaster style, we have not seen any sign of them, but there's no real reason they couldn't exist.

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^This. Mammets are actually fully autonomous (with their 'brain' a kind of clockwork computer called a Mammet Core, this is what gave 'Maggie' the magitek armour her sentinence). Unlike in FFXI where it was explicitly stated that PUPs were in full control of their automatons, directing their movements and functions by remote controls on their hands). As LineageRazor above said though, that does not necessarily mean there is no potential equivelant Discipline to PUP in Eorzea, we've just never seen one.

Also, the lack of a visible PUP Discipline may be deliberate, given in previous Astral Eras automatons like golems were used in warfare to devestating effect and an abandonment of such a use for mammets might have been a result of the anti technology/magic purge in the early Sixth Astral Era, resulting in mammets being only used for mundane tasks like entertainment once Eorzean society recovered and started to reclaim lost arcane arts like magic and technology. Perhaps it's just as well.

That's my idle speculation though so take that with a healthy dose of NaCl. ;)

We all already have the ability to be puppetmasters to some degree. If you wear the Mammeteer title then you unlock additional actions when interacting with mammet and wind-up minions. The one I remember is:

/handover will make mammets and wind-up minions eat out of your hand

This doesn't work unless you have that title up. I think there were others like this, but can't remember them off the top of my head.

The concept of PUP/MAM definitely already exists in XIV, so it's not a stretch at least in lore terms that a puppetmaster/mammeteer job could be a thing. I too would like PUP/MAM to be in-game since I was a PUP main in XI but I'm not sure how well it could be implemented in XIV.

Minions aren't really a good example though, given only some are actual automatons/robots - a lot of minions are living creatures who have no real sentinence like the Courel Kitten, and some are aetheric entities with their own free will (like Midgardsormr and Anima). So a hypothetical Discipline that uses minions like FFXI PUP uses their automatons.... doesn't really ring that true (Lord of Verminion is simply an in-universe game that at least appears on the surface to be not even 'real' but just a simulation depicted on screens which is what the player character accesses, this is how you can put multiple of a type of minion on the battlefield in it).

Incidentally, I never knew that about the Mammeteer title, that is so awesome! Thank you for that explanation. :D

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Minions aren't really a good example though, given only some are actual automatons/robots

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The minions in question are specifically the mammets and wind-ups, which are all actual automatons/robots so it does apply.

No one said anything about PUP using minions. There are just some minions that match what a PUP is already.

There are mammets and various other machina, but to the best of my knowledge there is nobody in Eorzea that weaponizes them as the idea suggests.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

There are mammets and various other machina, but to the best of my knowledge there is nobody in Eorzea that weaponizes them as the idea suggests.

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Gigi (of Hildebrant's story, not the GSM one) was created to provide immortality to its creator, Archmagus Quan, and this was done with the ability to restore things to their ideal state. It failed in the Archmagus' case because Gigi grew to love him and viewed his as ideal already. This also manifested in a couple of ways during the storyline, mostly to do with reversing age and the last manifestion was quite aggressive against the other protagonists although it was ultimately unsuccessful. I would count Archmagus Quan as a mammeteer, and there's lots of room in the lore for other types of mammets with similarly powerful abilities.

It caused me great sorrow in 1.0 when I found out that pugilist would get monk as a job instead of puppetmaster, even though pugilists were tied to the casino, which employed mammets. I still held hope after 2.0 that PUG could split into MNK and PUP like how ACN splits into SMN and SCH, but now Yoshi doesn’t like split jobs. Oh well.

They exist when they need to add another Limited job to keep the subs up.
I bet it's gonna be based like the FF11 version where you need different parts for different components.
Except it will be tied to crafting to get the best ones with the item requirements being stuff you've already done 20 times before.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Vivi is a puppet...it is explained in FF9.

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Vivi in 9 wasn't a puppet, at least not how I think you're referencing it. It was established that he was different from the other Black Mages, being the prototype and all, and unlike the others, he had free will and sentience from the start of his life; since he was lost right after his creation. Remember Vivi's whole story arc is about existentialism ("How do you prove that you exist...? Maybe we don't exist...") and he acts as a grounder for Zidane when he goes through a similar issue.

To clarify, he was designed to be a puppet, but didn't become a puppet. Think of it like Johnny 5 from Short Circuit.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Vivi is a puppet...it is explained in FF9.

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While it's made clear in the end that he's some kind of artificial being, a great deal of discussion goes into whether he's human or not - suggesting that he looks human to the other characters in the story.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

/handover will make mammets and wind-up minions eat out of your hand

This doesn't work unless you have that title up. I think there were others like this, but can't remember them off the top of my head.

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You dont actually need the title up to have this work. I have never set this one as my title(though i did earn it ages ago) but ive done the feeding(/handover) trick hundreds of times. Works with other peoples minis too. I dont remember if there was a special animation for /pet or not. Several minis will climb up on your shoulder if you /beckon them. Im blanking on any other emotes that have special interaction with minis.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Gigi (of Hildebrant's story, not the GSM one) was created to provide immortality to its creator, Archmagus Quan, and this was done with the ability to restore things to their ideal state. It failed in the Archmagus' case because Gigi grew to love him and viewed his as ideal already. This also manifested in a couple of ways during the storyline, mostly to do with reversing age and the last manifestion was quite aggressive against the other protagonists although it was ultimately unsuccessful. I would count Archmagus Quan as a mammeteer, and there's lots of room in the lore for other types of mammets with similarly powerful abilities.

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Vivi's specific abilities were not time reversal, but the power to put things into what he believes is their "ideal state." Aside from being restored to their physical prime it's implied that Vivi makes the Grand Sers more powerful than they actually were due to their braggadocio.

Either way, the closest thing anyone in Eorzea has to a combat puppet is the MCH's new Automaton Queen.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

You dont actually need the title up to have this work. I have never set this one as my title(though i did earn it ages ago) but ive done the feeding(/handover) trick hundreds of times. Works with other peoples minis too. I dont remember if there was a special animation for /pet or not. Several minis will climb up on your shoulder if you /beckon them. Im blanking on any other emotes that have special interaction with minis.

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Poking the slime and pudding minions will make them melt, petting certain minions has them do special things (Littlefoot does the stereotypical Yeti chest thumping), specific pairs will attempt to fight each other (Wind-up Magnai and Sadu), etc. None of this requires the Mammeteer title being either earned or displayed.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

You dont actually need the title up to have this work. I have never set this one as my title(though i did earn it ages ago) but ive done the feeding(/handover) trick hundreds of times. Works with other peoples minis too. I dont remember if there was a special animation for /pet or not. Several minis will climb up on your shoulder if you /beckon them. Im blanking on any other emotes that have special interaction with minis.

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You can do all that with most minions but you need the mammeteer title equipped to do that with wind-ups. Also, the title being on allows wind-ups to move on their own.

As far as the main topic, I had just remembered somewhere reading that Yoshi isn't a fan of the pet classes. That would make sense with the ACN/SMN/SCH and MCH changes we had for 5.0. At this point I doubt we'll get another pet class.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

You dont actually need the title up to have this work. I have never set this one as my title(though i did earn it ages ago) but ive done the feeding(/handover) trick hundreds of times. Works with other peoples minis too. I dont remember if there was a special animation for /pet or not. Several minis will climb up on your shoulder if you /beckon them. Im blanking on any other emotes that have special interaction with minis.

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Yes. Yes you do. /handover works all the time on animals, but only works on mammets with the title up. I actually tested it before I posted to make sure.

So far as I know there isn't anything we would recognize as a full on puppetmaster job in the lore, but there's certainly room for it to be added down the line if SE decides to add them.